I couldn’t write in the post above but that new Substack post perfectly summarizes what I couldn’t get to in the summer because of time and energy at that moment. Taken Into Custody is a great but infuriating book.
The above is a summary of why the first wave of MGTOW came around.
P.S. I just saw that @anna_5588 had a question about ok vs not ok cleaning habits. I should state for the record that we/I blow a LOT of stuff off. The house gets cleaned well (ish) before company, which thankfully we have a lot of. Husband helps with that - changing sheets for the guest beds, etc. He’s supposed to be in charge of the bathrooms, but doesn’t do anything about it without being specifically assigned. I keep the filth to a dull roar.
Our stove was cleaned the day the above cleaner conversation happened, but I don’t care about it day-to-day unless it’s really nasty. I care about the sink and the counters, which IMO should be rinsed or wiped after making a meal. A sponge should NOT be in the sink, dirty.
Aside from that, I’m actually pretty relaxed about it. I’d say we’re in the 70th percentile for clean house.
Ah yes, this is why we didn’t spring for the drawers. People who have them are “meh” about it. But perhaps they’ve forgotten the HELL those of us with single dishwashers have to endure. lol
P.P.S. Regarding the 4 dishes, @SkyzykS…my kids went to elementary school with a family with four kids, and the mom told me they’d gone to color-coded dishes for everyone. They all had a plate, bowl, cloth napkin, and I guess cup, and if your stuff was dirty when it was time to eat, “oh well!”
I wasn’t able to go that far, but we did go to color-coded towels for the kids with great success. Everyone had a color. If you choose to leave yours on the floor, wet, sucks for you. If you want it clean, make sure it’s in the wash. Or wash it yourself! In big families with a mom who doesn’t like cleaning up after other people, independence starts early.
@planetcybertron the family with the color-coded dishes had an organic farm that I drove past regularly. He was an oncologist who’d surrendered his license for reasons unknown to me, and she’d been his nurse. Anyway, so the kids were hers. A thing that made me crazy, driving past, was that the farm was named “Husband’s Last Name Farm.” But that wasn’t the name of the four kids who lived there with him, and I’ve never understood why they didn’t name it something like “Sunny Acres Farm,” or whatever, rather than a name not shared by all of the people living and presumably doing chores there. To me, that’s wildly shitty step-parenting.
In another weird blended family note, I carry my kids’ last name. This had to do with my career rather than family stuff, but I’m glad we all have the same name. However, it means my husband is married to someone who carries her ex’s name. And he’s fine with it. We had long conversations about it before we got married. I was working for community health centers, and my referrals came from inside the org, but I’d previously worked closely with schools, crisis and the emergency department at the hospital, and so on, all under the ex’s name. I knew I’d be in private practice at some point, and my gig is all about name brand and referrals. Spoke to the ex and he was supportive of it, current husband was supportive of it, and I don’t care. When he calls the vet he identifies himself as Hockey Guy Q, Louie Q’s dad, rather than his own last name.
Our blended family is a joy of my heart. We’re having grandchildren together and they are equally beloved. Neither of us would tolerate any real negativity toward our kids (we gripe about them together, that’s fair game, because who raised these animals? No one??). The kids are sacred, so if there is any real antipathy, we swallow it.
Informative documentaries on the roots of the fatherless crisis. The testing grounds for sexual revolution were poor communities.
Mine was a little different. We all had assigned chores starting when I was 6. Mine was laundry, and we all helped with shopping. Since there was 4 of us, if we each carried 2 bags, thats 8 bags of groceries. But my oldest brother was a dick, so he’d just set his down at any given point and walk away. Knowing that we couldn’t just leave them there, we’d have to pick them up and carry them the rest of the way.
Then, since laundry was easy (of course it was! 
) my other brother argued that I should help with dishes too. So I got to do that. Then he would do as many dishes as he felt like, and leave the rest for me. But I was barely tall enough to reach all the way into the sink or the bottom rack of the old dishwasher (back when you had to wash the dishes before washing them!).
So I used to get in trouble all the time for not doing my chores or anybody elses.
I’m pretty laid back about housework but I don’t have any empathy if there are complaints about it. I’ll do any or all of it myself. My wife gets upset and starts defending why she didn’t do something, and I tell her that “I don’t care”. This causes her pain and confusion as if I don’t care about her reason, but after 20 years of additional clarity she is beginning to understand that it means “I don’t care who does it.” as long as it gets done.
My thoughts are “Do it, or not. It needs done whether anybody helps or not. There is no reward or consequence either way”. I think I do that to neutralize the previous experience of getting in trouble and fighting over whose job what ever wasn’t done was.
My wife tried complaining about the dishes so I just started doing them myself. Then she got upset that I was doing them!
I told her she has to make up her mind one way or the other and figure out how to be at ease with what ever she decided, cuz I have my own crazy and don’t need any of hers.
You haven’t experienced marital disharmony until you have to defend “Shut up, I’m trying to do the dishes and don’t need any distraction or argument about why.”.
Im glad to hear that your family situation is going well and you’re able to reap the harvest of that. Its a polar opposite dynamic here with me and my husband sadly. We have to parallel parent, low/no contact with the ex, and be prepared for court threats at any given moment.
We’ve been in marriage counseling for a while because this particular thing was turning into a make or break situation. And on top of that, I had piled on a lot of my own struggles. I couldn’t function well with the feelings of inadequacy because I felt like my husband already experienced everything with having kids, and there was no real connection. I didnt feel like I brought anything of value to him, and I didnt feel like he had any more room or energy to experience anything with me.
We also have completely different beliefs. Kids mom is pretty much atheistic, and me and my husband are Christians. Theres always going to be a clash within households. And ny husband and I refuse to violate our convictions to the same degree she does.
I cant really say you and I have the same dynamics or life circumstances. But I enjoy reading that family blending has been a blessing for you. I dont like the terms “blended” or “step”. When the kids come over we try to instill values, have them watch us and our actions, help them see the blessings of marriage, etc. Which gets immediately undone when they return to their mom. But its a duty me and my husband keep being consistent with.
I dont speak to their mom. At all. To give you an idea, shes someone who my husband says “would reguarly drop the N-word”. So thats the environment the kids are in most of the year. They’re used to being made to feel like the world revolves around them. Affirming every single whim and desire, newest toy, etc. While my husband and I came from “Yes ma’am, No sir” child rearing.
I say all that to say its really up in the air about last names. My husband has his family name, and I have my dad’s. The kids have my husband’s last name, and I guess we will figure out other things as they come.
See, I feel certain that this sort of thing worked for my husband as a child and he’s trying to wear me down the same way with the dirty sponge and waterlogged dog kibble. But I’m not falling for it!
Actually, though, I do to some extent. I don’t care if I make the bed or do other stuff I know he doesn’t care about or hates doing. The sink tho! That’s important.
Before the cleaner decision, I tried requiring a day alone to do the stuff without bitterness, my “me time” cleaning our house. That didn’t go well because I’d actually much rather have fun with him than have me-time and clean. So he kept not going away and things remained at baseline.
YOU haven’t experienced top-notch marital disharmony until you have to defend “how can I clean up after you without hating you if you won’t go away because I keep telling you not to go?”
I guess I figure that the kids will learn to manage the two sets of expectations, and will make decisions about their own beliefs later, when they’re older. So there’s no need to agonize over what goes on at mom’s, as long as it’s safe. Kids want stability and love. They want cheerful homes. If that includes the n-word used lightly as an intimate in-group word, the world doesn’t end. I would never call someone a bitch, but at home will joke “that bitch gotta go” as if I’m all gangster, which of course I’m not. So it’s light and cheerful. It’s angry talk that breaks kids. Not the profanity itself. (I don’t have kids at home when I’m talking gangster. When the kids were home I talked gangster without swearing, e.g. “getting ready to pop off up in here!”).
Love and accept and keep safe. That’s the whole job.
(back when you had to wash the dishes before washing them!).
You still have too! Stop clogging my dishwasher!
I actually really relate to your “I don’t care” thing. My wife’s family is really big on “fault”. Everyone is very quick to admit when it’s their fault. But they also are really good at moving ON from there. Fault is admitted, and then we move on to the next step of problem solving.
In my family, an admission of fault was a declaration of guilt, which meant, now that you pleaded guilty, it was time to administer punishment. Therefore, it was a rare situation that fault was admitted to.
In turn, I don’t EVER try to ascribe fault to anything: i just try to move onto the problem solving stage and leave “fault” in the either. Meanwhile, my wife feels like, if fault isn’t ascribed, there was a lack of resolution. So it creates a similar situation. In your situation, it would be like “Are you saying it’s my fault the dishes aren’t done?” “No, I don’t care whose fault it is: I just want the dishes done so I’m doing them”
I can understand that.
We are very similar there. If something breaks, I ask “how did that happen?” not “who did that?” Cuz I just want to prevent it from happening again. I don’t care who broke it.
They sound pretty good about it.
My wifes is too (in a very unhealthy way) except when its theirs individually. Then they’re big on blame! . Thats when the gymnastics begin. I’ve commented a few times about “you guys sound like the olympic mental gymnastics team…” , which was not at all well recieved.
. Wasn’t me!
This speaks to level of priority. They’re mismatched. He may feel the same way about the doggy kibble, just not nearly as much.
My wife has certain priorities that I am not in synch with. In her order, its like #1 or 2 of most important things. For me, its like #26. I care about xyz, but there are 25 other things in front of it that I care more about.
I understand that the order of priority are hard earned places though. Usually set in stone, inconel, or other very hard substance.
Having fun is also very important. I saw a documentary once on family dynamics called “The Shining”…
. Turns out, all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
My wife has certain priorities that I am not in synch with. In her order, its like #1 or 2 of most important things. For me, its like #26. I care about xyz, but there are 25 other things in front of it that I care more about.
I have no idea why we have plants INSIDE the house. And, consequently, if my wife leaves me alone for 5 days, they all die because they don’t get water, because I legit don’t register that they are there…
I have an emotional support Basil plant. Like, if I’m feeling some sort of schizm on the horizon, I’ll make a chicken pizza with some emotional support basil on it, and I feel a lot better after I eat it.
These are the building blocks of our lives man. Even if we don’t see the reason for them, they wouldn’t be there if they weren’t necessary.
I thought the same thing, but then remembered that about a year ago I stopped rinsing dishes because I’d had approximately 10 years to observe that while I did pull still-dirty dishes out of the thing occasionally, it was relatively rare. So, having failed to beat him, I joined him on this one. (It feels so naughty!)
Another thing I’ve loosened up about is old food. He eats seriously old food, and while I don’t go as far as he will, I’ve become more able to eat week old chicken, as again, these now many years of observation have shown no death resulting from his eating even 10 day old stuff (which shocks and appalls me).
Actually, I’ve loosened up about a number of things. Not the sponge, tho! Never the sponge. And not the unrinsed sink, either.
This is interesting. I think I’m like your wife, wanting closure to whatever issue, big or small, and he is reacting more like you describe your family to. Like it’s a big deal and so to be avoided at all costs. I’m looking for something like “sorry, I keep forgetting,” so I can say “I know, it’s not the end of the world,” and move on, acknowledged.
I used to think we (men) all had this mindset until I started managing others at work. It’s definitely a learned trait and it’s how my father was. Mothers are nurturing, but fathers teach you how to deal with the world.
When I was 14 or 15 I crashed my snowmobile and I was terrified to tell my father. It was a nice sled, only a couple years old. To my surprise when I brought it to him he just asked if I was okay, assessed the damage, and told me to start looking for parts. I asked “you’re not mad?” He replied “They make new snowmobiles everyday, there’ll never be another you. Just be more careful.”
Perhaps your ability to articulate the point is at issue. You keep quoting me, but then talking about the situation at your house, which is significantly different. It’s confusing. What is it you don’t understand about wanting to be one of the people with better things to do than clean up messes I didn’t have a hand in making, on surfaces I’ve already cleaned as an element of housekeeping?
What is bothering you about my - I think - fairly healthy marriage, and efforts to work through known stressors?
Fuck it, I’m out.
Done trying to reach an understanding with feminist retards.
4car