The Fatherhood Thread

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I don’t think I have. And the men I’ve heard speak the most disrespectfully of women or who were careless with them were womanizers, men who seemed to want women around, like all the time. I think it’s reasonable to think people who dislike a specific demographic wouldn’t want to be around them. I vividly remember a close former friend of mine said, “women want to be deceived,” in our late teens, but he was never womanless.

The few men who see eye to eye with me on sexual politics are all married and very dedicated to their families.

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Slave owners wanted their slaves around all the time too, heck some of them probably even treated a few of them rather well. But you wouldnt ever confuse them for someone who “liked” black people though, would you?

I think you’re using the word “hate” in the definition in too narrow a sense, I do think its much more as others have said in here thats its more of a view that women are below men by default, taken to an extreme they are to be used and abused because that is their nature (the idea that all “women like to be deceived” being a good example) and they dont have much more worth than the work, utility, and physical pleasure they can provide.

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If this kind of thinking doesn’t count as misogynistic, there’s no misandrisms (hate towards men) either.

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Just a thought……..at some practical level; isn’t this really the total value of each and every one of us?

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at some practical level; isn’t this really the total value of each and every one of us?

But, in turn, at a nihilistic level, this is any sort of value at all.

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I suppose you could abstract it and reduce it down to that, depends on how philosophical you want to get really, but I’d like to think I view my wife as more than a mostly replaceable wet hole who does my laundry makes my dinner and would want the same for my daughter in whoever she ends up with. Shes a whole person with thoughts and wants and desires and knowledge and opinions, and a person deserving of respect outside of what she can do for me or to me.

I have female friends that I dont plan on having sex with because they are interesting and funny and enjoyable in a variety of ways. None of them provide me anything outside of that. They are people that happen to be women.

My male friends are similar, I value their friendship and view them as people who have worth above and beyond if they can provide me some kind of marketable “value”. They are people that happen to be men.

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Same calculation….all the inputs are zero.

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Slow down Lonnie. I was on levels one and two of Maslow’s pyramid and you jumped over me to level three.

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Think the hole is a lot less wet when you hold those sort of attitudes.

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Thats what the liquid detergent is for

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New videos on my feed. Not a fan of Galloway or Reeves, but these show there’s no denying these issues anymore.

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I have read, and it resonates with me, that we lack an initiation ritual for men in America.

I belong to a local Men’s support group that meets monthly and it is a great space.

For me, I have embraced being alone (not lonely). I do what I want, when I want, where I want. I doubt any woman would entice me to change that, but, I am old enough to be collecting Social Security, so there is that.

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MGTOW is an understandable path, but likely not one for nearly all 18 to 40 something year old men.

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I am not sure I qualify as MGTOW, but acknowledge it may not be acceptable for other age groups, which is why I included my age. I don’t see it as political or misogynistic - my closest friends are women.

What I do see is failure to individuate leading to conflicted men searching for external approbation. When they fail to achieve that, they become disenfranchised.

I am not misogynistic or celibate. I have gotten to a point in my life that I am extremely comfortable spending the majority of my waking hours alone. I believe there are many others like me.

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Though MGTOW can be done as a political strike against marriage, I don’t see how a man going his own way would be inherently misogynistic. Besides, so few misogynists exist that we’d have to scour America to find them.

Are you referring to validation from women?

I don’t think anyone here would think you are.

Something I’ve wondered about some self-proclaimed MGTOWers is how there can be no celibacy while going their own way. The whole MGTOW thing means having no “relationships” or marriage.

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Doing anything that doesnt immediately benefit women is mysoginistic these days.

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I had not heard of MGTOW so I searched it and a cursory glance at the results indicated that it had a connotation of being misogynistic and anti feminist. I don’t know if it’s an organized movement or just a label that has developed traction, but I do know that I don’t fit into that Pidgeon hole. Because MGTOW had that reputation, I wanted to clarify that it did not apply to me.

I was not referring to the validation of women but rather for looking for approbation from without rather than knowing that they are a good person that does not need approval from society in general.

A person living in alignment with their values knows their worth and is able to live happily independently. It’s when they take on the persona(s) forced upon them by society that dissonance occurs.

Having an initiation ritual or tradition that delineates manhood from childhood could make a difference - giving the initiate the power and responsibility for their own happiness.

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Revealing article on women going their own way published this past weekend.

65+ Kicking and Screaming Toward 74+
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I’ve talked about this before. For all the saber-rattling on these boards about men going their own way, it’s the women who are opting out.

I have a cleaner starting tomorrow. Two reasons: one is that I can’t get the house as clean as I need it to be in the time I have allotted because I’m always cleaning up the same messes and can’t move on to the less glaring issues. The other is I struggle with my feelings around the disparity in my marriage around it. My husband is a good provider and has outstanding hygiene (flosses twice daily!). He takes BEAUTIFUL care of the 160 acres that is his passion, and his tools and equipment are well-maintained. He has old tractors and a commercial grade excavator he keeps purring along. But I don’t care about that stuff. I make enough money to be able to live well and I have savings, though he out-earns me and I live better partnered with him. The land (half hour from our house) is nice to visit, but I live at home, so I care that every time I go into the kitchen there’s some new mess - waterlogged dog kibble in the sink along with whatever else he didn’t bother rinsing, crumbs on the counter I’d just cleaned (if I point it out he’s likely to brush it onto the floor I just vacuumed). Just before seeing this post (I’m cleaning for the cleaner, of course) I walked past the kitchen table and noticed grape jelly on it. WTF? We’re not 5 and I’m not your mom. Why did you leave grape jelly on the table?

I never think about leaving my marriage over housekeeping, but when other things (e.g. politics) stress us enough, I do start thinking of a tidy house that is only as dirty as I and the dog make it, with no one else’s moods to consider. No explaining my food choices or workout schedule or mess.

But despite all of the stuff I can find to complain about, I consider myself happily married and lucky. My husband is funny, snuggly, strong, and other good things. I love doing things with him and I love doing nothing with him. I work with women whose husbands don’t help AND are stoned, gaming, or both with their free time, so there’s no companionship either. Men who don’t bathe enough for their wives to want to have sex with them. Men who can’t budget or keep a job.

I’ve posted before the idea that he doesn’t need to be better than the top 10% of men. He needs to be better than solitude and her own place. Better than nothing.

Note: I know there are complaints he can make about me. In fact, when I try to talk about the above he often enumerates his own grievances. I merely lay this out as a first-hand account of what women are on about.

When I decided to have someone come in, he’d come in while I was on a cleaning break to see if I was ready to “do something” (fun). I said I was still in the middle of cleaning, and rather than seeing what he could do to help, he turned and left. Lol? So I marched pleasantly out and said I thought we should get a cleaner in occasionally for a deep clean, and he responded “I’ve been saying we should get someone in weekly.” Which he has, but I dropped to part time (25-30 hours a week) to manage both the cleaning and bitterness, so hadn’t done anything about it and also think I do better than most cleaners do (we’ve had them in the past). Anyway, I decided to take him up on it so that we can both have more fun and things feel more balanced.

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All though I come off as contentious or adversarial toward a lot of the manosphere stuff, I’m actually very pro-man.

Real ones though (by my definition of course). Not big he man immitation of masculinity that a lot of men attempt, but the guy that gets it done. We have to wear a lot of hats.

I gotta weld some shit. There will be hammers. I’ll be back though.

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