The Facts About Mass Shootings (Article)

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
101

[quote]Makavali wrote:

So let me clarify my question: what is the religious leaning of the majority of these child abusers? Is there a link? If not, then it’s pretty irrelevant to your point.[/quote]

You are asking for a “scientific” cause and effect with a national problem in America. That cannot be done can it? You cannot prove to me what is causing this out break of violence nor can I scientifically prove it to you to your satisfaction.

Politics is after all not a science. But a series of beliefs backed up by logical conclusions.
You can claim that taking God and the Christian value system out of schools and replacing it with pop culture ala violent video games, movies and TV shows has nothing to do with the rising rate of school shootings.

However, before God was removed and those things entered the picture we had no problem.

You can allow your belief system to color your view. I choose to look at this as not a Christian vs Atheist argument. It is about giving children good values. And that’s exactly what Christianity does on many levels. From encouraging two parent families to non violent responses. Now only has it worked, it’s worked for decades! Now it’s being removed and there is a rise in many horrible acts of violence against children.

No, I can’t prove, as in 1+1 = 2, that it is directly related to the above removal of good influences and the addition of bad. But unless you want to throw logic to the side you would be hard pressed to find a better reason.

Let go of your anti Christian bias for a once. You don’t have to believe in God to believe that a strong value system that has rewarded good behavior and punished bad is not good for our society.

103

A truly civilized society would think in terms of equity, not equality.

The principles of Justice, not the rules of sameness.

104

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

So let me clarify my question: what is the religious leaning of the majority of these child abusers? Is there a link? If not, then it’s pretty irrelevant to your point.[/quote]

You are asking for a “scientific” cause and effect with a national problem in America. That cannot be done can it? You cannot prove to me what is causing this out break of violence nor can I scientifically prove it to you to your satisfaction.

Politics is after all not a science. But a series of beliefs backed up by logical conclusions.
You can claim that taking God and the Christian value system out of schools and replacing it with pop culture ala violent video games, movies and TV shows has nothing to do with the rising rate of school shootings.

However, before God was removed and those things entered the picture we had no problem.

You can allow your belief system to color your view. I choose to look at this as not a Christian vs Atheist argument. It is about giving children good values. And that’s exactly what Christianity does on many levels. From encouraging two parent families to non violent responses. Now only has it worked, it’s worked for decades! Now it’s being removed and there is a rise in many horrible acts of violence against children.

No, I can’t prove, as in 1+1 = 2, that it is directly related to the above removal of good influences and the addition of bad. But unless you want to throw logic to the side you would be hard pressed to find a better reason.

Let go of your anti Christian bias for a once. You don’t have to believe in God to believe that a strong value system that has rewarded good behavior and punished bad is not good for our society.
[/quote]

You tell me my belief system colors my view, and then in the same paragraph show how yours does the same to yours.

No, I can’t link religiosity to child abuse, much like you can’t link atheism to it either. But then why bring it up? The often mentioned fact that correlation does not necessarily mean causation bears repeating here.

I’m not stating what you think I’m stating either - I won’t deny that religion in the past has done a lot for helping create an ordered society as denying that would be outright lying. Where you’re going wrong is allowing your anti-Atheism bias to leak into your perception of what I’m saying.

Any finally, a lot of the values you claim are Christian are not exclusive to Christianity. Religions that pre-date Christianity have espoused such values for a long time. Calling your value system “Christian” implies it invented these concepts, when it did not.

105

[quote]pushharder wrote:
No religious people believed in those things. They may have done them from time to time but knew it was wrong.

And don’t fool yourself, when many religious people heard of atrocities against the red man they vehemently opposed it. They did not “believe” in it.

But again the main point is morality has not improved in the last couple of generations contrary to what smh proposes. However the law of unintended consequences has bitten us in the ass on several occasions in regards to our quest for “fairness and equality.”[/quote]

Did they? Slavery, a much used example, went on for a fantastically long time before being abolished. Do you really think people knew it was wrong for that long without doing anything about it?

When you have false prophets declaring to the gullible masses that black skin is a curse from God, it’s not hard to imaging that the masses thought what they were doing to be “right”.

And what you should be saying is that Christian values have been in decline. That is to say, morals that are exclusive to Christianity have been in decline. Other religions have seen a decline in the morals they hold exclusive as well.

We have to have a clearly agreed consensus on what is a universal “moral system” before claiming that it is in decline.

106

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Looks like I have to school you. Again.

I think we can all admit that the Ten Commandments is a sociologically acceptable standard of morality even if we temporarily dismiss the religious aspects of it.

1st - 5th: Set these aside for the sake of this discussion.

5th: Honor your father and mother

6th: Don’t murder

7th: Don’t commit adultery

8th: Don’t steal

9th: Don’t lie

10th: Don’t covet

Now there is no way on earth that you can argue the violations of these principles in current times has declined and led us to a “society right now, today, (is) better than the world has ever seen.” Hogwash.[/quote]

Total crime rates have been steadily falling for two decades. They are now at their lowest level in almost half a century.[/quote]

You ran. Why are you scared to answer my question?[/quote]

I don’t see a question in your post.

Anyway, you produced murder and theft as evidence that we’ve been on a moral downslide–that in light of those criteria one could not possibly conclude that we’re better off now than in the past. Ignoring adultery and envy and filial piety for a moment because they’re very difficult to quantify, your argument is nonsensical, the bastard child of hunch and emotion: crime–murder, theft, assault, etc.–has been falling for twenty years and is now at its lowest point in almost half of a century. There were fewer homicides on record in New York City in 2012 than in any year since standardized record-keeping began in 1963.

Edit: I’ll add to this that racism and sexism are also on the decline (black people aren’t property anymore and they get to vote; those are nice ones) and the country’s abortion ratio has been falling since 1980.

In light of all this: exactly what measure do you propose we use in order to evaluate our moral standing? Because most of them seem to point in one direction, and that’s toward an smh victory.

107

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

This is, then, all about crime. And Western Europe stands as an example of an increasingly secular society that has not seen a corresponding rise in crime.[/quote]

And as I’ve stated previously Europe is NOT America[/quote]

This is true and a good point. Ethnic differences between Finland and the US alone make comparison difficult. Still, though, Europe proves beyond any kind of doubt that secularization does not necessarily lead to criminality.

108

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

I give you 10 for eloquent and sophisticated effort in expression but I am waiting for the substance of your posts.
[/quote]

I’ve already produced the substance but I’ll be happy to repeat myself in the simplest terms possible. Bear in mind that I’m arguing against the proposition that the removal of prayer from the schoolhouse has had a positive effect on criminality in general and mass murder in particular.

  1. Crime has been falling in the United States for 40 years despite increasing secularization and falling church attendance.

  2. The first post of this thread linked to an article in the National Review–not exactly a liberal anti-guns-and-religion rag–which claimed mass shootings to have peaked in 1929, decades before Engel v. Vitale.

Two questions:

  1. Is this not substance?

and

  1. Can you refute any of this and/or substantiate its counterargument?
109

[quote]Makavali wrote:
The often mentioned fact that correlation does not necessarily mean causation bears repeating here.
[/quote]

This.

Our society has changed in an unbelievable number of ways in the last twenty years. Who is to say that the internet is not the cause? The increasing lack of personal interaction among an inherently social populous? The exploitation of confirmation bias by modern media outlets?

The fact of the matter is there is no proving things one way or another. An argument can be made for any number of causes.

What I will say is that I severely doubt that an individual with the desire to commit such a heinous crime, who has already disregarded every law of the land, would be stopped by another set of rules. These individuals are such outliers on the curve of social normalcy that no matter where you shift that curve on an axis of morality, there will sadly be such cases. I believe again that the better focus is on mental health treatment and societal stigma attached to it in this country.

110

[quote]Makavali wrote:

I’m not stating what you think I’m stating either - I won’t deny that religion in the past has done a lot for helping create an ordered society as denying that would be outright lying.[/quote]

There you go…we agree!

No, no not at all. If you or one of your fellow atheists had an “atheists moral code” that you wanted to replace the Christian values with then at least you would be offering up an alternative. But the last time I checked there was no such thing. that means (once again) you want to boot out a value system that has worked for a few hundred years and replace it with nothing! And we know that does not work. So get busy and create an atheists moral code that at least somewhat reflects the good values built into Christianity. Then you’ll actually have an point.

I didn’t say that Christianity invented anything and you know that. Is it time now to use the straw man argument? And once again you are confused. I am not on this thread to debate God Jesus Christ or anything related to a particular belief system. I am here only to claim that the values inherent in Christianity have helped steer many on the right course and I think you’ve just agreed with me above. And we are seeing the offshoot of booting those values out of our society and replacing them with nothing and it isn’t good!

111

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Looks like I have to school you. Again.

I think we can all admit that the Ten Commandments is a sociologically acceptable standard of morality even if we temporarily dismiss the religious aspects of it.

1st - 5th: Set these aside for the sake of this discussion.

5th: Honor your father and mother

6th: Don’t murder

7th: Don’t commit adultery

8th: Don’t steal

9th: Don’t lie

10th: Don’t covet

Now there is no way on earth that you can argue the violations of these principles in current times has declined and led us to a “society right now, today, (is) better than the world has ever seen.” Hogwash.[/quote]

Total crime rates have been steadily falling for two decades. They are now at their lowest level in almost half a century.[/quote]

You ran. Why are you scared to answer my question?[/quote]

I don’t see a question in your post.

Anyway, you produced murder and theft as evidence that we’ve been on a moral downslide–that in light of those criteria one could not possibly conclude that we’re better off now than in the past. Ignoring adultery and envy and filial piety for a moment because they’re very difficult to quantify, your argument is nonsensical, the bastard child of hunch and emotion: crime–murder, theft, assault, etc.–has been falling for twenty years and is now at its lowest point in almost half of a century. There were fewer homicides on record in New York City in 2012 than in any year since standardized record-keeping began in 1963.

Edit: I’ll add to this that racism and sexism are also on the decline (black people aren’t property anymore and they get to vote; those are nice ones) and the country’s abortion ratio has been falling since 1980.

In light of all this: exactly what measure do you propose we use in order to evaluate our moral standing? Because most of them seem to point in one direction, and that’s toward an smh victory.[/quote]

Yes, yes we’ve talked about that. There is no slavery… got it! That truly is a wonderful thing, WONDERFUL!

Now would you like to explain how teen pregnancy, abortion, a larger number of children growing up in one parent households, rising divorce rates, illicit drug usage, more alcoholics, more people killed by alcohol, more child abuse, more school shootings, porn available to 12 year olds with a button click, a continual flow of violent movies, TV and video games, and a fat, sloppy profane arrogant “entitled” populace is a good thing? These are the things that for some reason you’re ignoring. And by the way in 30 years if we trade all of those things for 30 more things that are just as bad or worse we are not progressing!

We took a giant step forward when we ended slavery and we’ve taken many steps back regarding all of the many more problems that we have. And it’s because we are slowly rejecting our basic Christian value system.

Once again, this has nothing to do with anyone’s belief system. It has everything to do with rejecting what has worked over many years.

112

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

This is, then, all about crime. And Western Europe stands as an example of an increasingly secular society that has not seen a corresponding rise in crime.[/quote]

And as I’ve stated previously Europe is NOT America[/quote]

This is true and a good point. Ethnic differences between Finland and the US alone make comparison difficult. Still, though, Europe proves beyond any kind of doubt that secularization does not necessarily lead to criminality.[/quote]

They prove it in Europe. And Europe is not the United States of America. And there is no comparison.

113

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

I give you 10 for eloquent and sophisticated effort in expression but I am waiting for the substance of your posts.
[/quote]

I’ve already produced the substance but I’ll be happy to repeat myself in the simplest terms possible. Bear in mind that I’m arguing against the proposition that the removal of prayer from the schoolhouse has had a positive effect on criminality in general and mass murder in particular.

  1. Crime has been falling in the United States for 40 years despite increasing secularization and falling church attendance.

  2. The first post of this thread linked to an article in the National Review–not exactly a liberal anti-guns-and-religion rag–which claimed mass shootings to have peaked in 1929, decades before Engel v. Vitale.

Two questions:

  1. Is this not substance?

and

  1. Can you refute any of this and/or substantiate its counterargument?[/quote]

  2. No.
    The proposition was never “prayer in school” in the first place. It has also moved into a greater depth and you are arguing from the surface: this is why I am saying your arguments lack substance.

Zeb’s point was very clear to me and “prayer in school” was something he did not even have to be mention in that sentence.

You singled that out and keep hanging on to it like a flotation device. He is trying to take you to a greater depth and you insist in swimming only in the shallow end of the pool with the two arm bands of:

“Crime has been falling in the United States for 40 years despite increasing secularization and falling church attendance.”

and

“The first post of this thread linked to an article in the National Review”

If I may suggest that perhaps the difference is that our thinking functions preferences are different: You could be coming from operating with breadth of vision and synthesis versus my preference is depth of vision and analysis.

If where you are coming from is looking at the parts to arrive at the whole and I am looking at the whole and breaking it down into parts that could explain the difficulty in understanding.

  1. No.

a. Because I don’t have the virtue of patience for PWI but am too opinionated to just lurk. :slight_smile:

b. Because I also suspect you are swimming in statistical data and I am swimming in empirical data and life experience ( I am 42 ). And therefore could be again arguing from incongruent perspectives.

P.S. I mentioned my age because even I have experienced the changes in society Zeb has mentioned. I don’t think a younger generation has the benefit of this experience and therefore are able to fully comprehend where he is coming from. If you are younger than me then our current reality is all you know from life experience. Once again incongruent world views.

115

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

I’m not stating what you think I’m stating either - I won’t deny that religion in the past has done a lot for helping create an ordered society as denying that would be outright lying.[/quote]

There you go…we agree!

No, no not at all. If you or one of your fellow atheists had an “atheists moral code” that you wanted to replace the Christian values with then at least you would be offering up an alternative. But the last time I checked there was no such thing. that means (once again) you want to boot out a value system that has worked for a few hundred years and replace it with nothing! And we know that does not work. So get busy and create an atheists moral code that at least somewhat reflects the good values built into Christianity. Then you’ll actually have an point.

I didn’t say that Christianity invented anything and you know that. Is it time now to use the straw man argument? And once again you are confused. I am not on this thread to debate God Jesus Christ or anything related to a particular belief system. I am here only to claim that the values inherent in Christianity have helped steer many on the right course and I think you’ve just agreed with me above. And we are seeing the offshoot of booting those values out of our society and replacing them with nothing and it isn’t good![/quote]

I didn’t say you said anything of the sort - I said your argument inherently implies it (whether you intended it remains to be seen). The values that have seen traction in the face of declining Church attendance are not exclusive to Christianity (I’m also not denying the decline of ideas that are Christian specific). You keep talking about Christian values as if people didn’t stumble onto the ideas that things like murder were wrong until the Bible told them so.

As smh has been pointing out, the statistics tend to fly in the face of what you’re claiming.

Abortion is on the decline. So is murder. Teen pregnancy happens largely in highly religious areas.

That’s not to say there aren’t problems, but all the doomsaying is highly unnecessary.

116

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

I’m not stating what you think I’m stating either - I won’t deny that religion in the past has done a lot for helping create an ordered society as denying that would be outright lying.[/quote]

There you go…we agree!

No, no not at all. If you or one of your fellow atheists had an “atheists moral code” that you wanted to replace the Christian values with then at least you would be offering up an alternative. But the last time I checked there was no such thing. that means (once again) you want to boot out a value system that has worked for a few hundred years and replace it with nothing! And we know that does not work. So get busy and create an atheists moral code that at least somewhat reflects the good values built into Christianity. Then you’ll actually have an point.

I didn’t say that Christianity invented anything and you know that. Is it time now to use the straw man argument? And once again you are confused. I am not on this thread to debate God Jesus Christ or anything related to a particular belief system. I am here only to claim that the values inherent in Christianity have helped steer many on the right course and I think you’ve just agreed with me above. And we are seeing the offshoot of booting those values out of our society and replacing them with nothing and it isn’t good![/quote]

I didn’t say you said anything of the sort - I said your argument inherently implies it (whether you intended it remains to be seen). The values that have seen traction in the face of declining Church attendance are not exclusive to Christianity (I’m also not denying the decline of ideas that are Christian specific). You keep talking about Christian values as if people didn’t stumble onto the ideas that things like murder were wrong until the Bible told them so.

As smh has been pointing out, the statistics tend to fly in the face of what you’re claiming.

Abortion is on the decline. So is murder. Teen pregnancy happens largely in highly religious areas.

That’s not to say there aren’t problems, but all the doomsaying is highly unnecessary.[/quote]

Clearly I have been talking about Christian values in the US, no where else. And in the US the very base of our moral values have come from Christianity. As I said if there were a book on atheist values and it had a similar moral code as Christianity then that too would be helpful. this is not a religious discussion but one on why it is important to have a sound moral society…and how we got where we are today.

Also, while smh is correct about the lowering crime rate that is more a function of demographics than anything else. However, there is no answer to my long list of ills that we now face. And at the very top of that list is child murder and abuse.

117

This isn’t that difficult people. Abuse rates are way up, want to know why? Because we have EDUCATED people on what abuse is and on how to report it. Comparing rates from 30 or 40 years ago to today is absolutely absurd. The amount of education and social service support towards finding and reporting abuse has never been better. We are MUCH more likely to get a kid out of those situations than we were 30 years ago.

Let’s also compare Vermont and a nice religious state like say Texas. Children in Texas are almost twice as likely to die from abuse and neglect. Ooops. I thought those poor kids in Vermont would all be beaten and raped mercilessly because without God who the hell can tell me to behave? How the hell do I not have a religion and don’t have rap sheet either? Doesn’t atheism cause crime? How about Mississippi with the highest teen birth rate. Smack dab in the Bible belt folks!

I also love all of the complete absence of necessity handwaving going on about how great things were back in the day as if any of you can actually remember. You don’t think teachers banged students back in the 70’s? The 60’s? You didn’t fucking hear about without the internet unless it happened in your hometown. Good grief. Now if a teacher in Florida bangs a 15 year old we know about it the day it happened. And this is our beautiful evidence for how horrible society is?

Your parents were the same ones complaining about rock n roll in the 60’s. Bunch of dinosaurs in here lamenting the good old days, but not being able to point out any statistics to support their case. Now back to your regularly scheduled let’s blame all the problems of the world on non-believers…and if they come up with religion having any issues let’s just say those guys weren’t really religious…EZ game this debate thing!

118

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

I’m not stating what you think I’m stating either - I won’t deny that religion in the past has done a lot for helping create an ordered society as denying that would be outright lying.[/quote]

There you go…we agree!

No, no not at all. If you or one of your fellow atheists had an “atheists moral code” that you wanted to replace the Christian values with then at least you would be offering up an alternative. But the last time I checked there was no such thing. that means (once again) you want to boot out a value system that has worked for a few hundred years and replace it with nothing! And we know that does not work. So get busy and create an atheists moral code that at least somewhat reflects the good values built into Christianity. Then you’ll actually have an point.

I didn’t say that Christianity invented anything and you know that. Is it time now to use the straw man argument? And once again you are confused. I am not on this thread to debate God Jesus Christ or anything related to a particular belief system. I am here only to claim that the values inherent in Christianity have helped steer many on the right course and I think you’ve just agreed with me above. And we are seeing the offshoot of booting those values out of our society and replacing them with nothing and it isn’t good![/quote]

I didn’t say you said anything of the sort - I said your argument inherently implies it (whether you intended it remains to be seen). The values that have seen traction in the face of declining Church attendance are not exclusive to Christianity (I’m also not denying the decline of ideas that are Christian specific). You keep talking about Christian values as if people didn’t stumble onto the ideas that things like murder were wrong until the Bible told them so.

As smh has been pointing out, the statistics tend to fly in the face of what you’re claiming.

Abortion is on the decline. So is murder. Teen pregnancy happens largely in highly religious areas.

That’s not to say there aren’t problems, but all the doomsaying is highly unnecessary.[/quote]

Let’s not let statistics get in the way of a good old fashioned “in my day” rant. Not the way things usually work around here. Evidence is highly overrated to many on here.

119

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Yes, yes we’ve talked about that. There is no slavery… got it! That truly is a wonderful thing, WONDERFUL!

Now would you like to explain how teen pregnancy, abortion, a larger number of children growing up in one parent households, rising divorce rates, illicit drug usage, more alcoholics, more people killed by alcohol, more child abuse, more school shootings, porn available to 12 year olds with a button click, a continual flow of violent movies, TV and video games, and a fat, sloppy profane arrogant “entitled” populace is a good thing? These are the things that for some reason you’re ignoring. And by the way in 30 years if we trade all of those things for 30 more things that are just as bad or worse we are not progressing!

We took a giant step forward when we ended slavery and we’ve taken many steps back regarding all of the many more problems that we have. And it’s because we are slowly rejecting our basic Christian value system.

Once again, this has nothing to do with anyone’s belief system. It has everything to do with rejecting what has worked over many years.[/quote]

Let’s see how many of these you get wrong.

Teen pregnancy rates at a 40 year low: Teen pregnancy rates hit 40 year low – The Chart - CNN.com Blogs

Smoking is lower than it has been in a LONG time.

Driving under the influence is down.

Drugs higher than ever? Says who:

Abortion huh? http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57553119/u.s-abortion-rates-down-5-percent-during-great-recession-biggest-one-year-decrease-in-a-decade/

That’s just the stuff I googled quickly. Like 20 seconds of googling. Didn’t even read any of the crap really. It’s absolutely clear you have no idea what the hell you’re talking about and you’re just ranting and raving. I don’t have time to see if you’re incorrect on the other stuff as well. It’ll just get handwaved away anyways. Who needs proof? EVERYTHING IS WORSE THAN EVER IN THE WORLD GUYS! TRUST ME! Let’s also ignore the fact that it’s probably the best time ever to be a woman or minority in the United States.

Why let that get in the way of some good old fashioned "in my day kids didn’t have iphones! We walked to school uphill both ways.

AND WE LIKED IT. WE LOVED IT!" Lol this place is hilariously bad.

Literally every generation ever has talked about how bad it is now. You guys aren’t special. Your parents thought it. Their parents thought it about them. And so on. If it makes you feel better you guys would be the ones talking about how Elvis was the worst thing ever. And the Beatles. Somehow we survived. Somehow we’ll survive this. Somehow we survived jazz music. Tupac. The Simpsons. Disco. One day I’m sure I’ll point at the kids younger than I am and talk about how horrible everything is and all that. I’ll be having kids in a few years. Maybe I’ll grow up to be that angry guy acting as if we had no problems in the 80’s and 90’s when I grew up like so many want to pretend the 80’s, 70’s, 60’s were. Is it a faulty memory? Something you guys want to believe?

How very atheist of me to question what people are saying as MUST BE true. Pretty sure that’s how we’ve gotten away from some of the complete nonsense the Church has been peddling over time.

Come back from a vacation and the place is as strange as ever :slight_smile: