The Facts About Mass Shootings (Article)

[smh23]

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

…we live in a more fair and equal society right now, today, than the world has ever seen, imo… [/quote]

Exactly.

The US is a (morally) better place today than when kids prayed in schools. And that’s about all that needs to be said about that…

Good grief.

“More fair and equal?” Maybe.

“Morally better?” Not a chance.[/quote]

Why?

More equal: morally better.

Perhaps this is a matter of semantics, but it is difficult to argue that the moral state of this nation has not improved dramatically over the past century.

[smh23]

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
Nietzsche made Zeb’s same argument/observation in 1882 about Europe.

http://www.philosophy-index.com/nietzsche/god-is-dead/[/quote]

And contrary to what has been said in this said in this thread, Western Europe is not OK.
[/quote]

What do you mean by this? Since we’re talking about crime and murder in this thread, I’d have to disagree with you–it tends to be much, much safer than the United States.[/quote]

I mean that I see what Nietzsche and Zeb are on about.
And no, the surface of the argument may appear to be about crime and murder but an in depth vision will reveal the essence of the discussion is how the void that was left when God was replaced by The Almighty Government.

Move your eyes from the side of your head to the front:

Government cannot fulfill the spiritual needs of the people.

The void that has been left is being replaced by things not virtues and these things are mutating the type of violence that afflicts society today.

Religion, just as science has saved and killed many millions.

Religion is a wonderful tool for those to use it wisely, just like science.

I can use God to nurture and defend my virtues or to cause many vices in the same way I can use nuclear power for good or to create a world of hurt.

I believe that religion is a means to an end: that end being the spiritual man.

Like university, you go through it and come out to stand on your own two feet spiritually.

That is true freedom.

You should “graduate” religion being about to exercise your free will in a way that respects your boundaries and that of others.

That is in direct opposition of what a liberal society is indoctrinating in people.

[/quote]

These are vaguely anti-liberal generalities. The context of this debate, and the mention of Western Europe, is specific: it has been averred by Zeb that the removal of prayer from the schoolhouse has got something to do with crime or mass murder.

This is, then, all about crime. And Western Europe stands as an example of an increasingly secular society that has not seen a corresponding rise in crime.

[Alpha_F]

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
Nietzsche made Zeb’s same argument/observation in 1882 about Europe.

http://www.philosophy-index.com/nietzsche/god-is-dead/[/quote]

And contrary to what has been said in this said in this thread, Western Europe is not OK.
[/quote]

What do you mean by this? Since we’re talking about crime and murder in this thread, I’d have to disagree with you–it tends to be much, much safer than the United States.[/quote]

I mean that I see what Nietzsche and Zeb are on about.
And no, the surface of the argument may appear to be about crime and murder but an in depth vision will reveal the essence of the discussion is how the void that was left when God was replaced by The Almighty Government.

Move your eyes from the side of your head to the front:

Government cannot fulfill the spiritual needs of the people.

The void that has been left is being replaced by things not virtues and these things are mutating the type of violence that afflicts society today.

Religion, just as science has saved and killed many millions.

Religion is a wonderful tool for those to use it wisely, just like science.

I can use God to nurture and defend my virtues or to cause many vices in the same way I can use nuclear power for good or to create a world of hurt.

I believe that religion is a means to an end: that end being the spiritual man.

Like university, you go through it and come out to stand on your own two feet spiritually.

That is true freedom.

You should “graduate” religion being about to exercise your free will in a way that respects your boundaries and that of others.

That is in direct opposition of what a liberal society is indoctrinating in people.

[/quote]

These are vaguely anti-liberal generalities. The context of this debate, and the mention of Western Europe, is specific: it has been averred by Zeb that the removal of prayer from the schoolhouse has got something to do with crime or mass murder.

This is, then, all about crime. And Western Europe stands as an example of an increasingly secular society that has not seen a corresponding rise in crime.[/quote]

Yes, of course you would view it in a platitudinous way.

270 degrees peripheral.

[Alpha_F]

[quote]smh23 wrote:

and the mention of Western Europe, is specific: it has been averred by Zeb that the removal of prayer from the schoolhouse has got something to do with crime or mass murder.

This is, then, all about crime. And Western Europe stands as an example of an increasingly secular society that has not seen a corresponding rise in crime.[/quote]

I don’t see the point in spoon feeding people who do not want to see reality and who have no depth of vision.

But this isn’t for you as it is more for those lurking.

This was posted by Countingbeans in another thread:

"Violent crimes havenâ??t gone away with the UKâ??s gun control. Theyâ??ve actually gone up.

Britons suffer 1,158,957 violent crimes per year, which works out at 2,034 per 100,000 residents. The U.S., meanwhile, has a rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, which is lower than Franceâ??s, at 504

Instead of gun crime, the UK worries about knife crime. And has been practicing knife control.

The UK outlawed the switchblade and gravity knife in 1959.

In 1988 possession of a pocket knife with a blade larger than 3 inches in public became illegal.

In 1996, it became illegal to sell a razor blade to anyone under the age of 16.

In 2007, you needed a license to be able to sell â??non-domestic knives.â??

Despite all that knifepoint robberies rose by 10 percent this year and there are some 60,000 stabbings each year. So the push is on to outlaw long kitchen knives. Once thatâ??s done, surely utopia will be at hand.

…

Take a good look America. This is where weâ??re headed under liberal dominion."

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/british-doctors-call-for-ban-on-long-kitchen-knives-to-end-stabbings/#.UN2Rfz_2Qjc.twitter

[smh23]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Looks like I have to school you. Again.

I think we can all admit that the Ten Commandments is a sociologically acceptable standard of morality even if we temporarily dismiss the religious aspects of it.

1st - 5th: Set these aside for the sake of this discussion.

5th: Honor your father and mother

6th: Don’t murder

7th: Don’t commit adultery

8th: Don’t steal

9th: Don’t lie

10th: Don’t covet

Now there is no way on earth that you can argue the violations of these principles in current times has declined and led us to a “society right now, today, (is) better than the world has ever seen.” Hogwash.[/quote]

Total crime rates have been steadily falling for two decades. They are now at their lowest level in almost half a century.

[smh23]

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

and the mention of Western Europe, is specific: it has been averred by Zeb that the removal of prayer from the schoolhouse has got something to do with crime or mass murder.

This is, then, all about crime. And Western Europe stands as an example of an increasingly secular society that has not seen a corresponding rise in crime.[/quote]

I don’t see the point in spoon feeding people who do not want to see reality and who have no depth of vision.

But this isn’t for you as it is more for those lurking.

This was posted by Countingbeans in another thread:

"Violent crimes haven�¢??t gone away with the UK�¢??s gun control. They�¢??ve actually gone up.

Britons suffer 1,158,957 violent crimes per year, which works out at 2,034 per 100,000 residents. The U.S., meanwhile, has a rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, which is lower than France�¢??s, at 504

Instead of gun crime, the UK worries about knife crime. And has been practicing knife control.

The UK outlawed the switchblade and gravity knife in 1959.

In 1988 possession of a pocket knife with a blade larger than 3 inches in public became illegal.

In 1996, it became illegal to sell a razor blade to anyone under the age of 16.

In 2007, you needed a license to be able to sell â??non-domestic knives.â??

Despite all that knifepoint robberies rose by 10 percent this year and there are some 60,000 stabbings each year. So the push is on to outlaw long kitchen knives. Once thatâ??s done, surely utopia will be at hand.

…

Take a good look America. This is where we�¢??re headed under liberal dominion."

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/british-doctors-call-for-ban-on-long-kitchen-knives-to-end-stabbings/#.UN2Rfz_2Qjc.twitter

[/quote]

You’re talking about arms control. Zeb and I were debating public religiosity, not gun control. That was the context of the Western Europe example.

Anyway, this stuff is fine. My opinion of European gun control laws is not dissimilar from yours.

But again, that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m saying that the argument that Adam Lanza is somehow a product of the removal of prayer from school is fatuous and, as is often and sometimes rightly said of liberal viewpoints, born of emotion rather than rationality or evidence or reason or anything remotely resembling human thought.

[Makavali]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Point four is a logical conclusion from all of the other many horrible things that occur when we take away a value system that has worked well for decades. When there is no higher power things and people are then elevated to that position. I believe that much of our youth has elevated pop culture to that status. Others place themselves at the center of their own universe when there is no other value system. Granted it’s just my opinion but it makes perfect sense.
[/quote]

So personal opinion? If there is no higher power, there is no higher power. You are the one saying that we must necessarily elevate ourselves (or something else) to that position without actually knowing if that is the case.

[quote]As to point #1 there is more than enough evidence:

[quote] The results show that between 1997 and 2009, hospitalizations for serious injuries caused by child abuse, such as fractures and traumatic brain injuries, increased by about 5 percent in the United States. Hospitalizations among children less than 1 year old increased 10.9 percent, the researchers said. The study is published today (Oct. 1) in the journal Pediatrics
[/quote]

Child Abuse Injuries, Deaths On The Rise

Be careful the above article was taken from that conservative rag The Huffington Post.

I used yet one more blatantly conservaitve site to make my point.

Rise in Child Abuse Called National 'Epidemic'

[quote]Many social workers say they are stunned by an increase in abuse in the middle class, putting additional strain on a system already under pressure.

“It covers across the socioeconomic spectrum,” Bilchik said. “So this isn’t about just impoverished families.”
[/quote]
Hey this one really is from a conservative site. I guess both sides agree on this one.

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/08/02/reports-of-child-sexual-abuse-on-the-rise/

[quote]Not only have the numbers of sexually abusive images increased in recent years the assessment says that prosecutors and investigators have documented trends showing pictures are more likely to depict violence against the victims. The children in these pictures are also increasingly likely to be toddlers or infants.

â??Tragically, the only place we have seen a decrease is in the age of victims. This is simply unacceptable,â?? Holder said.

The report cites statistics showing a 40 percent increase in the number of federal prosecutions for crimes related to child exploitation from 2006 to 2009.
[/quote]
Read more: http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/08/02/reports-of-child-sexual-abuse-on-the-rise/#ixzz2GMFPrDJT

http://www.prevent-abuse-now.com/stats2.htm

[quote]Rise in Child Abuse Called National ‘Epidemic’
[/quote]
[/quote]
I’m not denying an increase, that would be plain stupid. Somewhat like trying to link raised levels of non-belief to increases in child abuse. So let me clarify my question: what is the religious leaning of the majority of these child abusers? Is there a link? If not, then it’s pretty irrelevant to your point.

[Makavali]

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

While Dahmer may be an outlier, the millions of religious people in America that beleived in…the slaughter of the native americans…

[/quote]

Falsehood.

Know your history. Don’t get it from Hollywood.
[/quote]

But you did slaughter Native Americans. Just because they behaved in a way that was barbaric at times, doesn’t erase the killing infant America did.

[Alpha_F]

[quote]smh23 wrote:

You’re talking about arms control. Zeb and I were debating public religiosity, not gun control. That was the context of the Western Europe example.

Anyway, this stuff is fine. My opinion of European gun control laws is not dissimilar from yours.

But again, that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m saying that the argument that Adam Lanza is somehow a product of the removal of prayer from school is fatuous and, as is often and sometimes rightly said of liberal viewpoints, born of emotion rather than rationality or evidence or reason or anything remotely resembling human thought.[/quote]

It is only fatuous if you look at it from fatuous eyes.
I understood very well the depth, the hight, and the breadth of what he said.

Try to scratch the surface and at least have depth of vision and you won’t find other people’s comments so “fatuous” or “platitudinous”.

As for your observation that Zeb’s argument was like a “…a liberal viewpoint, born of emotion rather than rationality or evidence or reason or anything remotely resembling human thought.”

Why, even your most nonsensical replies to clear evidence presented to you by sexmachine in the Russian thread were resembling of human though.

So unless you have access to non human thought which would give you the authority on discerning human and non human thought, or you have prayed in school and have got to know the mind of God and demons, I would hold out such absolute judgments on Zeb’s expression “as anything resembling human thought” in this instance.

I give you 10 for eloquent and sophisticated effort in expression but I am waiting for the substance of your posts.

[ZEB]

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

They had self respect and a moral code.
[/quote]

I am sure many of them did. I’m also sure that there were many who had nothing of the sort. John Joel Glanton and his boys would fall into the latter category.[/quote]

Certainly in the old west there was an abundance of outlaws who would steal the gold from your teeth. Or kill you for your scalp if they thought they could sell your hair. But their murderous ways were almost always for profit. Sure…they were bad men. But as I’ve been saying even the lowest of the low wouldn’t kick a school house door down and shoot little kids.

We’ve got a special kind of human being that we’ve bred in this day and age. We’ve taken God out of their lives, put in just the right amount of senseless violence. And made sure that they were exposed to it at an early age. Also, in many cases that the child has grown up without the proper parenting. When you remove the Judeo-Christian value system marriage means nothing and couples can come and go as they please. And if they have children that’s a shame because YOUR feelings come first. As you are now the center of your own universe, in essence your own God.

Oh yeah…this is a unique recipe that we’ve concocted and it will be paying us back in blood and pain for many years to come.[/quote]

Interesting… With god taken out, mass killings are not any higher than they have been in the past as shown in the op.

I think it is has more do with proper parenting than it is with proper religion. If I remember, Jeffrey Dahmer’s parents were religious. There’s plenty of great parents out there that are not religious, and plenty of religious parents that are not so great.

Not sure if I am reading your post correctly, but it looks as though you’re saying that somoene that isn’t religious will put themselves before their child? I find that hard to believe. [/quote]

1. Child abuse is up, and the killing of innocent children is up and that is my point.

2. Are you a parent? Do you realize how difficult it is to do “proper parenting” as you suggest when we are surrounded by violence and semi pornographic images on a constant basis? And that’s where religion comes in. It backs up the parents and confirms basic values.

3. Stop with the Jeffrey Dahmer example. That is the exception to the rule. Sort of like me bragging about my Uncle who lived to the age of 90 and smoked and drank heavily every date. Enough.

4. Someone who does not believe in God is more apt to put themselves at the center of their own universe. In essence they become their own God. And yeah…there’s more of that going on today than ever before. Their interests are more inclined to come before everyone else’s not all but many are like this. [/quote]

While Dahmer may be an outlier, the millions of religious people in America that beleived in slavery, unequal rights for blacks, and the slaughter of the native americans is far from a bunch of outliers. [/quote]

Yes, and very “moral men” used to own slaves and make sure that their wives never spoke in public. They were a product of their times. That has little to do with this discussion.

it’s not because of religion, but the rule of law.

When we remove the value system that Christianity gives us we then need more laws. That was never a question that police officers were needed in elementary schools even 20 years ago. But now…

[Makavali]

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

While Dahmer may be an outlier, the millions of religious people in America that beleived in…the slaughter of the native americans…

[/quote]

Falsehood.

Know your history. Don’t get it from Hollywood.
[/quote]

But you did slaughter Native Americans. Just because they behaved in a way that was barbaric at times, doesn’t erase the killing infant America did.[/quote]

Religious people did not believe in the slaughtering of native Americans. Plain and simple.

Did it happen? Yes. Did the native Americans do their own slaughtering of other Indians and whites? Yes.

Adultery occurred back then too. Did religious people “believe” in adultery? No.

Theft occurred back then too. Did religious people “believe” in theft? No.

Lying occurred back then too. Did religious people “believe” in lying? No.

Coveting occurred back then too. Did religious people “believe” in coveting? No.

Dishonoring one’s parents occurred back then too. Did religious people “believe” in dishonoring parents? No.

Evil has always existed. It’s prevalence ebbs and flows. There’s no way a reasonable man can claim it has been ebbing for the past 50 years or so. You and I can both agree on that. Smh would agree as well if he’s being honest.[/quote]

You’ll find the better way to put that is that not all religious people believed in those things. Some did. Same goes for Atheists.

[ZEB]

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

While Dahmer may be an outlier, the millions of religious people in America that beleived in slavery, unequal rights for blacks, and the slaughter of the native americans is far from a bunch of outliers.

I’m not saying religion is evil by any means, i’m just saying that blaming all the evil that happens in the modern world on a societal lack of religion is far too convenient, especially from someone that is a believer. I think the problems are more complex than that.

That being said, we live in a more fair and equal society right now, today, than the world has ever seen, imo.

EDIT: and it’s not because of religion, but the rule of law. [/quote]

Exactly.

The US is a (morally) better place today than when kids prayed in schools. And that’s about all that needs to be said about that.

Which is not to say that the decline of public prayer somehow caused our moral betterment. Just that it hasn’t caused any kind of moral dissolution.[/quote]

Absolutely wrong!

Children today are exposed to the cesspool of Hollywood and violent video games. Many dress like street rats, swear like sailors and have no respect for their teachers. In addition to that many are also being brought up without the benefit of both parents.

Now why is this happening?

Things are far from better today “morally”. Sure there is no slavery and that is a huge. But as I said in an earlier post, that was a sign of the times which was destined to die. Aside from that we are far worse off morally.

It is impossible to remove a credible value system that we’ve had for decades, replace it with nothing and be better off morally.

Stop being an atheist (or agnostic whatever you are) for a minute. Are you that married to your own personal belief system that you can’t separate the hands on value of Christianity to the home, family and long-term solid values? and just think of Christianity as a solid value system that benefitted society.

I’m not trying to get you to believe in anything. I’m merely pointing out something that should be obvious to all adults …especially those with children. How many kids do you have?

Uh huh.

[ZEB]

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

3. Stop with the Jeffrey Dahmer example. That is the exception to the rule. Sort of like me bragging about my Uncle who lived to the age of 90 and smoked and drank heavily every date. Enough.
   [/quote]

Adam Lanza is also an outlier–he just happens to be an outlier that serves your argument well.

Neither Dahmer nor Lanza stand as evidence of any kind of trend, whether it be pro or anti religious.[/quote]

Then speak to the runaway child abuse that is taking place while you are here pounding away at your key board claiming everything is better now that we’ve shoved God and Christian values to the side.

[Alpha_F]

[quote]ZEB wrote:

When we remove the value system that Christianity gives us we then need more laws.
[/quote]

Excellent point.

[ZEB]

[quote]smh23 wrote:

This is, then, all about crime. And Western Europe stands as an example of an increasingly secular society that has not seen a corresponding rise in crime.[/quote]

And as I’ve stated previously Europe is NOT America. We are a distinctly unique country founded on Christian values. Which are now being removed piece by piece and that does not make for a better country.