The Facts About Mass Shootings (Article)

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
121

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Yes, yes we’ve talked about that. There is no slavery… got it! That truly is a wonderful thing, WONDERFUL!

Now would you like to explain how teen pregnancy, abortion, a larger number of children growing up in one parent households, rising divorce rates, illicit drug usage, more alcoholics, more people killed by alcohol, more child abuse, more school shootings, porn available to 12 year olds with a button click, a continual flow of violent movies, TV and video games, and a fat, sloppy profane arrogant “entitled” populace is a good thing? These are the things that for some reason you’re ignoring. And by the way in 30 years if we trade all of those things for 30 more things that are just as bad or worse we are not progressing!

We took a giant step forward when we ended slavery and we’ve taken many steps back regarding all of the many more problems that we have. And it’s because we are slowly rejecting our basic Christian value system.

Once again, this has nothing to do with anyone’s belief system. It has everything to do with rejecting what has worked over many years.[/quote]

Let’s see how many of these you get wrong.

Teen pregnancy rates at a 40 year low: Teen pregnancy rates hit 40 year low – The Chart - CNN.com Blogs

Smoking is lower than it has been in a LONG time.

Driving under the influence is down.

Drugs higher than ever? Says who:

Abortion huh? http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57553119/u.s-abortion-rates-down-5-percent-during-great-recession-biggest-one-year-decrease-in-a-decade/

That’s just the stuff I googled quickly. Like 20 seconds of googling. Didn’t even read any of the crap really. It’s absolutely clear you have no idea what the hell you’re talking about and you’re just ranting and raving. I don’t have time to see if you’re incorrect on the other stuff as well. It’ll just get handwaved away anyways. Who needs proof? EVERYTHING IS WORSE THAN EVER IN THE WORLD GUYS! TRUST ME! Let’s also ignore the fact that it’s probably the best time ever to be a woman or minority in the United States.

Why let that get in the way of some good old fashioned "in my day kids didn’t have iphones! We walked to school uphill both ways.

AND WE LIKED IT. WE LOVED IT!" Lol this place is hilariously bad.

Literally every generation ever has talked about how bad it is now. You guys aren’t special. Your parents thought it. Their parents thought it about them. And so on. If it makes you feel better you guys would be the ones talking about how Elvis was the worst thing ever. And the Beatles. Somehow we survived. Somehow we’ll survive this. Somehow we survived jazz music. Tupac. The Simpsons. Disco. One day I’m sure I’ll point at the kids younger than I am and talk about how horrible everything is and all that. I’ll be having kids in a few years. Maybe I’ll grow up to be that angry guy acting as if we had no problems in the 80’s and 90’s when I grew up like so many want to pretend the 80’s, 70’s, 60’s were. Is it a faulty memory? Something you guys want to believe?

How very atheist of me to question what people are saying as MUST BE true. Pretty sure that’s how we’ve gotten away from some of the complete nonsense the Church has been peddling over time.

Come back from a vacation and the place is as strange as ever :)[/quote]

Most recent example on this site

Nothing wrong with mainstream style, the OP (as well as me) are just getting older so whatever kids do is considered odd.

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[quote]sufiandy wrote:Most recent example on this site

Nothing wrong with mainstream style, the OP (as well as me) are just getting older so whatever kids do is considered odd.[/quote]

When I was in college I was working with this teacher and I mentioned how “different” the kids were from even when I was in middle school. I talked about how they all talked about Xbox and blah blah blah. Anyways, my teacher (who was 45) said, “yeah people my age say that all the time…as if we wouldn’t have played with those things if we had them. They said my generation was going to be nothing but filth because of all the TV we watched.” Kinda made me think of things a bit different. Like the farmers in the first place I worked telling me how awful the economy was all the time…this was 1996.

It’s always been as bad as it’s ever been and it’s always always always getting worse if you just look at X, X, X you’d see. This has been said since the beginning of time.

The odd thing to me is the demonstrably false statements. I don’t really know where they come from. Is it just assumed that it’s as bad as it’s ever been so we’ll just say every single thing in the world is as bad as ever? I mean we’ve dogged the internet a lot in this thread (odd considering the only reason we’re having this discussion is because of it), but it DOES give us the power to prove things with statistics. Would have been nice to point out to those farmers in the old tire shop :slight_smile:

123

[quote]H factor wrote:

Let’s not let statistics get in the way of a good old fashioned “in my day” rant. Not the way things usually work around here. Evidence is highly overrated to many on here. [/quote]

You can’t measure the decline of a civilisation purely with stats. 60 years ago, were kids walking around with their arses hanging out of their trousers? Were they as incoherent? As literate? Don’t give me stats showing improved literacy rates over time because I know better. The standards have dropped. Was pornography freely available and on television? Was deviant sexual behaviour/lifestyle promoted and encouraged? How about out of wedlock birthrates?

"Out-of-Wedlock Birthrates Are Soaring, U.S. Reports

Before 1970, most unmarried mothers were teenagers. But in recent years the birthrate among unmarried women in their 20s and 30s has soared â?? rising 34 percent (between 2002 to 2009)"

^ Gives a bit more perspective on your teen pregnancy stats doesn’t it?

People say WWII was the greatest generation. Could young people today do what their forefathers’ did? If not, why not? What about discipline? Respect for elders? Are these things improving?

How about kids going on rampages every other week? How about teenage drug abuse?

“According to reports, teen drug abuse has been on the rise over the past decade. A report released Wednesday by The Partnership at Drugfree.org showed that â??heavyâ?? marijuana use among teenagers is up 80 percent”

Read more: Teen drug abuse becoming an epidemic, must be addressed | Fox News

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“My co-author, Mindy Marks, and I found a whopping 10-hour decline in time spent studying outside of class for full time students at four-year universities between 1961 and the 2000s…We know that students don?t come close to meeting these requirements, and that the shortfall has quadrupled over time.”

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You can’t, but I do give you credit for actually having some substance instead of just rattling off a series of things that happen to be bad and assuming they are AS BAD AS EVER. It’s nice to discuss things without someone just asserting a bunch of garbage that’s completely false or hyperbole.

My junior high coach got pissed off about backwards baseball hats and untucked shirts we wore. The asses hanging out of trousers? Hardly all of society is doing that. Not even close. I work with the youth here. Very few have asses hanging out of trousers. Styles come and go. Again, disco was the devil. Elvis was satan. Evidence of decline has always been there, you’re just picking and choosing what to look for. Society has ALWAYS had burnouts, losers, etc. It always will.

Porn is just more accessible. We had porn back in the day. It’s just easier to obtain. The internet has tons of good to go with the bad. Television is much better than it has ever been in terms of choices. You want to blame something blame the free market. We have more choices than ever as consumers. This is largely a great thing. I’d argue it has never been better to be a consumer. Look at the choices we have man, worldwide from the internet. Look at the information we have. Look at the conversation you and I can have and we don’t even know each other.

Out of wedlock birthrates are a concern. But people are getting married older. People are staying single more often. Is forcing people to get married because they are pregnant a better solution? Contraceptive use would be a big step to stopping this, but you know them religious folks…they don’t tend to like contraceptives. And yes, people back in the day were having sex as well! Out of wedlock sex! Orgasms before I do! Yes, even the greatest generation was fucking. Maybe less out of wedlock since society forced marriage on everyone, but again hardly evidence that the fall of man is upon us.

We’re going to differ on the drug use because I don’t view marijuana as a big thing. It’s the culture. Kids aren’t being brainwashed like we were about pot. They aren’t all doing it. And some of the ones who are will go on to become the President of the United States. Haven’t our last three all done it?

We could cherry pick all sorts of stuff if we wanted. I think this generation CAN do great things. Why couldn’t they? They will cure diseases. They will invent amazing things. They will be more connected than I was. They will have access to more information than any generation ever.

They will be more tolerant than any generation ever. They will accept gays. They grew up with a black President.

We will be ok. We really will. America, and society’s, demise has been predicted since the inception of the nation. It will be predicted 30 years from now. I might be like you pointing at this, that and whatever as the reasons why. But my kids will be ok as well. Remember the 1920’s were considered a time of sexual promiscuity as well. Some of those kids went on to…well, you get the idea.

My mom thought the Simpsons was the most vile disgusting show on TV and that if we watched it we would turn into hooligans. We watched it behind her back all the time. My siblings are all very successful. We all turned out ok. The people who watched Elvis did as well.

The sky has always been falling. It always will be falling. You won’t live to see it hit though, I’m quite convinced of that. And the small amount of atheists out there aren’t the reason it’s falling.

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[quote]SexMachine wrote:
How about out of wedlock birthrates?

"Out-of-Wedlock Birthrates Are Soaring, U.S. Reports

Before 1970, most unmarried mothers were teenagers. But in recent years the birthrate among unmarried women in their 20s and 30s has soared â?? rising 34 percent (between 2002 to 2009)"

^ Gives a bit more perspective on your teen pregnancy stats doesn’t it?

[/quote]

Given that most men are pretty reluctant to enter a lottery where the prize is NOT having half your shit taken, I’d say that stat has other reasons for being the way it is.

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[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
No religious people believed in those things. They may have done them from time to time but knew it was wrong.

And don’t fool yourself, when many religious people heard of atrocities against the red man they vehemently opposed it. They did not “believe” in it.

But again the main point is morality has not improved in the last couple of generations contrary to what smh proposes. However the law of unintended consequences has bitten us in the ass on several occasions in regards to our quest for “fairness and equality.”[/quote]

Did they? Slavery, a much used example, went on for a fantastically long time before being abolished. Do you really think people knew it was wrong for that long without doing anything about it?

When you have false prophets declaring to the gullible masses that black skin is a curse from God, it’s not hard to imaging that the masses thought what they were doing to be “right”.

And what you should be saying is that Christian values have been in decline. That is to say, morals that are exclusive to Christianity have been in decline. Other religions have seen a decline in the morals they hold exclusive as well.

We have to have a clearly agreed consensus on what is a universal “moral system” before claiming that it is in decline.[/quote]

Well, you clearly flipped a switch and off you went on a different track. We were talking slaughter of native Americans, remember?

Slavery is a different subject.

However, I listed several commandments/morals that were/are NOT exclusive to Christianity and you know it. Why would you state that they were?[/quote]

Perhaps reread my post, read my response to ZEB earlier, and then get back to me before talking about flipping the switch.

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[quote]H factor wrote:

Porn is just more accessible. We had porn back in the day. It’s just easier to obtain.

[/quote]

Hardcore stuff only began to emerge in the 60’s.

Bush: Bush refused to answer questions about past marijuana use. In a taped conversation with a friend, Bush said “I wouldn’t answer the marijuana question. You know why? 'Cause I don’t want some little kid doing what I tried.”

Clinton: “I didn’t inhale.” - Lying obviously.

Whereas Obama went all over television saying “Yes I inhaled, that was the point.” He was encouraging its use, trying to sound cool to young people. As you said, you and I differ on marijuana. But I’m sure you see my point.

For one thing, a lack of discipline, less exposure to hardship and more comfortable lives. Also, having more access to information is good but the skills needed to research, analyse and make use of information are being lost. There is also the concept of information overload:

“Information overload occurs when the amount of input to a system exceeds its processing capacity. Decision makers have fairly limited cognitive processing capacity. Consequently, when information overload occurs, it is likely that a reduction in decision quality will occur.”

Again, you and I differ on the benefits of this.

Only not a good one. And so many people voted for him because they projected onto him what they wanted him to be and it made them feel good about themselves.

By some very wise people including Lincoln. No nation can last forever and history abounds with examples of the decline of civilisations, cities and nations. When and how will it occur? I don’t know. But the signs of Western civilisation’s progress are easy to perceive: the rennaisance, the enlightenment, revolutionary era, industrial revolution, post-1960’s. When you look at the whole picture of western civilisation it’s very hard to argue that there hasn’t been a cultural decline going on for some time. Are some things better? Sure. But even good things have negative aspects to them.

[quote]

The sky has always been falling. It always will be falling. You won’t live to see it hit though, I’m quite convinced of that.[/quote]

I’ve seen it hit already. The British Empire is finished. Europe is falling to pieces. It’s not the same place. Not the same people. I suppose you would argue that Europe is better in many ways and will survive? Well it hasn’t survived in the sense that it has changed into something unrecognisable already.

Gibbon on the decline of Athens:

“In the end, more than freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all â?? security, comfort, and freedom. When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for most was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free and was never free again.”

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[quote]SexMachine wrote:
By some very wise people including Lincoln. No nation can last forever and history abounds with examples of the decline of civilisations, cities and nations. When and how will it occur? I don’t know. But the signs of Western civilisation’s progress are easy to perceive: the rennaisance, the enlightenment, revolutionary era, industrial revolution, post-1960’s. When you look at the whole picture of western civilisation it’s very hard to argue that there hasn’t been a cultural decline going on for some time. Are some things better? Sure. But even good things have negative aspects to them.
[/quote]

If you think the decline is so inevitable what is the point in discussing what government policies are best, etc?

130

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
By some very wise people including Lincoln. No nation can last forever and history abounds with examples of the decline of civilisations, cities and nations. When and how will it occur? I don’t know. But the signs of Western civilisation’s progress are easy to perceive: the rennaisance, the enlightenment, revolutionary era, industrial revolution, post-1960’s. When you look at the whole picture of western civilisation it’s very hard to argue that there hasn’t been a cultural decline going on for some time. Are some things better? Sure. But even good things have negative aspects to them.
[/quote]

If you think the decline is so inevitable what is the point in discussing what government policies are best, etc?[/quote]

The fact that Western civilisation has been in decline for a long time doesn’t preclude the need for good governance and public policy. Do I want my life savings wiped out in another economic crisis? No. Do I want to see a continued increase in abortions? No. Do I want marijuana “coffee shops” and associated drug culture on the streets? No.

131

[quote]H factor wrote:
This isn’t that difficult people. Abuse rates are way up, want to know why? Because we have EDUCATED people on what abuse is and on how to report it. [/quote]

Thank you.

Anybody think parents didn’t slap kids around n the '40s? Probably half of the interactions my father had with his father would today qualify as child abuse.

It’s just that nobody ever thought to say anything about it.

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[quote]Alpha F wrote:

b. Because I also suspect you are swimming in statistical data and I am swimming in empirical data and life experience ( I am 42 ). And therefore could be again arguing from incongruent perspectives.

P.S. I mentioned my age because even I have experienced the changes in society Zeb has mentioned. I don’t think a younger generation has the benefit of this experience and therefore are able to fully comprehend where he is coming from. If you are younger than me then our current reality is all you know from life experience. Once again incongruent world views.
[/quote]

This is fair enough, and a good point regarding statistical v. empirical data. I prefer the former.

133

[quote]H factor wrote:
This isn’t that difficult people. Abuse rates are way up, want to know why? Because we have EDUCATED people on what abuse is and on how to report it. Comparing rates from 30 or 40 years ago to today is absolutely absurd. The amount of education and social service support towards finding and reporting abuse has never been better. We are MUCH more likely to get a kid out of those situations than we were 30 years ago.

Let’s also compare Vermont and a nice religious state like say Texas. Children in Texas are almost twice as likely to die from abuse and neglect. Ooops. I thought those poor kids in Vermont would all be beaten and raped mercilessly because without God who the hell can tell me to behave? How the hell do I not have a religion and don’t have rap sheet either? Doesn’t atheism cause crime? How about Mississippi with the highest teen birth rate. Smack dab in the Bible belt folks!

I also love all of the complete absence of necessity handwaving going on about how great things were back in the day as if any of you can actually remember. You don’t think teachers banged students back in the 70’s? The 60’s? You didn’t fucking hear about without the internet unless it happened in your hometown. Good grief. Now if a teacher in Florida bangs a 15 year old we know about it the day it happened. And this is our beautiful evidence for how horrible society is?

Your parents were the same ones complaining about rock n roll in the 60’s. Bunch of dinosaurs in here lamenting the good old days, but not being able to point out any statistics to support their case. Now back to your regularly scheduled let’s blame all the problems of the world on non-believers…and if they come up with religion having any issues let’s just say those guys weren’t really religious…EZ game this debate thing! [/quote]

H-factor: the points you make in this post, and the one where you provided data to counteract the from-the-gut (and not in any kind of way based in reality) claims about smoking and teen pregnancy and etc., are excellent.

134

[quote]H factor wrote:

Let’s not let statistics get in the way of a good old fashioned “in my day” rant. Not the way things usually work around here. Evidence is highly overrated to many on here. [/quote]

Yes, because clearly these things just don’t count in your leftist world:

Teen pregnancy, abortion, a larger number of children growing up in one parent households, rising divorce rates, illicit drug usage, more alcoholics, more people killed by alcohol, more child abuse, and murder of children, more school shootings, porn available to 12 year olds with a button click, a continual flow of violent movies, TV and video games, and a fat, sloppy profane arrogant “entitled” populace.

This is the wonderful liberal world that H factor wants us all to enjoy!

135

[quote]Makavali wrote:

Given that most men are pretty reluctant to enter a lottery where the prize is NOT having half your shit taken, I’d say that stat has other reasons for being the way it is.[/quote]

Now let’s see…who is pro marriage? The Church.

Who is for waiting to have sex until after marriage? The Church.

Currently the Church has less influence on both men and women.

This is one that is rather obvious.

136

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
This isn’t that difficult people. Abuse rates are way up, want to know why? Because we have EDUCATED people on what abuse is and on how to report it. Comparing rates from 30 or 40 years ago to today is absolutely absurd. The amount of education and social service support towards finding and reporting abuse has never been better. We are MUCH more likely to get a kid out of those situations than we were 30 years ago.

Let’s also compare Vermont and a nice religious state like say Texas. Children in Texas are almost twice as likely to die from abuse and neglect. Ooops. I thought those poor kids in Vermont would all be beaten and raped mercilessly because without God who the hell can tell me to behave? How the hell do I not have a religion and don’t have rap sheet either? Doesn’t atheism cause crime? How about Mississippi with the highest teen birth rate. Smack dab in the Bible belt folks!

I also love all of the complete absence of necessity handwaving going on about how great things were back in the day as if any of you can actually remember. You don’t think teachers banged students back in the 70’s? The 60’s? You didn’t fucking hear about without the internet unless it happened in your hometown. Good grief. Now if a teacher in Florida bangs a 15 year old we know about it the day it happened. And this is our beautiful evidence for how horrible society is?

Your parents were the same ones complaining about rock n roll in the 60’s. Bunch of dinosaurs in here lamenting the good old days, but not being able to point out any statistics to support their case. Now back to your regularly scheduled let’s blame all the problems of the world on non-believers…and if they come up with religion having any issues let’s just say those guys weren’t really religious…EZ game this debate thing! [/quote]

H-factor: the points you make in this post, and the one where you provided data to counteract the from-the-gut (and not in any kind of way based in reality) claims about smoking and teen pregnancy and etc., are excellent.[/quote]

LOL you liberals always agree don’t you?

:wink:

137

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
This isn’t that difficult people. Abuse rates are way up, want to know why? Because we have EDUCATED people on what abuse is and on how to report it. Comparing rates from 30 or 40 years ago to today is absolutely absurd. The amount of education and social service support towards finding and reporting abuse has never been better. We are MUCH more likely to get a kid out of those situations than we were 30 years ago.

Let’s also compare Vermont and a nice religious state like say Texas. Children in Texas are almost twice as likely to die from abuse and neglect. Ooops. I thought those poor kids in Vermont would all be beaten and raped mercilessly because without God who the hell can tell me to behave? How the hell do I not have a religion and don’t have rap sheet either? Doesn’t atheism cause crime? How about Mississippi with the highest teen birth rate. Smack dab in the Bible belt folks!

I also love all of the complete absence of necessity handwaving going on about how great things were back in the day as if any of you can actually remember. You don’t think teachers banged students back in the 70’s? The 60’s? You didn’t fucking hear about without the internet unless it happened in your hometown. Good grief. Now if a teacher in Florida bangs a 15 year old we know about it the day it happened. And this is our beautiful evidence for how horrible society is?

Your parents were the same ones complaining about rock n roll in the 60’s. Bunch of dinosaurs in here lamenting the good old days, but not being able to point out any statistics to support their case. Now back to your regularly scheduled let’s blame all the problems of the world on non-believers…and if they come up with religion having any issues let’s just say those guys weren’t really religious…EZ game this debate thing! [/quote]

H-factor: the points you make in this post, and the one where you provided data to counteract the from-the-gut (and not in any kind of way based in reality) claims about smoking and teen pregnancy and etc., are excellent.[/quote]

LOL you liberals always agree don’t you?

;)[/quote]

I certainly agree with things that are demonstrably true. And I choose them over things that people “feel” are true. It might “feel” like abortion ratios and acts of criminality and mass shootings and etc. are more prevalent and more insidious now than they were in decades past, but the data disagrees. And the data is king in this particular sort of exchange.

By the way, it is not my contention that modern society is unconditionally wonderful or that there aren’t virtues that we’ve lost along our way to the present day. But with regard to the two elements of this discussion:

I’ve been presented with no legitimate evidence that Abington School District v. Schempp had a positive effect on criminality, sociopathy, mental illness, or mass murder (not to mention the fact that the Supreme Court’s decision was very clearly the correct one pursuant to the First Amendment to the Constitution).

And, similarly, nobody has made (or even really attempted to make) a convincing argument that we’re in the middle of some kind of grave moral decline into iniquity, criminality, and debauchery. On the contrary, most of the evidence points to the opposite conclusion. Do I think this is a somewhat silly, apples-to-oranges endeavor? Yes. But in light of the fact that criminality is on the decline and everybody is legally acknowledged to be five whole fifths of a human being, I’d say we’re not doing so bad as the doomsayers pretend.

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[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
This isn’t that difficult people. Abuse rates are way up, want to know why? Because we have EDUCATED people on what abuse is and on how to report it. Comparing rates from 30 or 40 years ago to today is absolutely absurd. The amount of education and social service support towards finding and reporting abuse has never been better. We are MUCH more likely to get a kid out of those situations than we were 30 years ago.

Let’s also compare Vermont and a nice religious state like say Texas. Children in Texas are almost twice as likely to die from abuse and neglect. Ooops. I thought those poor kids in Vermont would all be beaten and raped mercilessly because without God who the hell can tell me to behave? How the hell do I not have a religion and don’t have rap sheet either? Doesn’t atheism cause crime? How about Mississippi with the highest teen birth rate. Smack dab in the Bible belt folks!

I also love all of the complete absence of necessity handwaving going on about how great things were back in the day as if any of you can actually remember. You don’t think teachers banged students back in the 70’s? The 60’s? You didn’t fucking hear about without the internet unless it happened in your hometown. Good grief. Now if a teacher in Florida bangs a 15 year old we know about it the day it happened. And this is our beautiful evidence for how horrible society is?

Your parents were the same ones complaining about rock n roll in the 60’s. Bunch of dinosaurs in here lamenting the good old days, but not being able to point out any statistics to support their case. Now back to your regularly scheduled let’s blame all the problems of the world on non-believers…and if they come up with religion having any issues let’s just say those guys weren’t really religious…EZ game this debate thing! [/quote]

H-factor: the points you make in this post, and the one where you provided data to counteract the from-the-gut (and not in any kind of way based in reality) claims about smoking and teen pregnancy and etc., are excellent.[/quote]

LOL you liberals always agree don’t you?

;)[/quote]

I certainly agree with things that are demonstrably true. And I choose them over things that people “feel” are true. It might “feel” like abortion ratios and acts of criminality and mass shootings and etc. are more prevalent and more insidious now than they were in decades past, but the data disagrees. And the data is king in this particular sort of exchange.

By the way, it is not my contention that modern society is unconditionally wonderful or that there aren’t virtues that we’ve lost along our way to the present day. But with regard to the two elements of this discussion:

I’ve been presented with no legitimate evidence that Abington School District v. Schempp had a positive effect on criminality, sociopathy, mental illness, or mass murder (not to mention the fact that the Supreme Court’s decision was very clearly the correct one pursuant to the First Amendment to the Constitution).

And, similarly, nobody has made (or even really attempted to make) a convincing argument that we’re in the middle of some kind of grave moral decline into iniquity, criminality, and debauchery. On the contrary, most of the evidence points to the opposite conclusion. Do I think this is a somewhat silly, apples-to-oranges endeavor? Yes. But in light of the fact that criminality is on the decline and everybody is legally acknowledged to be five whole fifths of a human being, I’d say we’re not doing so bad as the doomsayers pretend.[/quote]

Then go back and answer my questions above…or not. You can believe what you want but the facts don’t line up with your belief.

But…hey whatever helps you sleep at night my friend.

These Internet debates never lead to anything of value anyway.

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[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

Let’s not let statistics get in the way of a good old fashioned “in my day” rant. Not the way things usually work around here. Evidence is highly overrated to many on here. [/quote]

Yes, because clearly these things just don’t count in your leftist world:

Teen pregnancy, abortion, a larger number of children growing up in one parent households, rising divorce rates, illicit drug usage, more alcoholics, more people killed by alcohol, more child abuse, and murder of children, more school shootings, porn available to 12 year olds with a button click, a continual flow of violent movies, TV and video games, and a fat, sloppy profane arrogant “entitled” populace.

This is the wonderful liberal world that H factor wants us all to enjoy!

[/quote]

I’m shocked that you would completely ignore how DEMONSTRABLY wrong you were on so many points and instead try to shift the discussion to something else. This is literally what you do every time.

You made a bunch of points. Many of these were completely proven wrong and it was shown you were talking out of your ass. You can try and change the subject to save face like you always do and call me a liberal or something, but we’ve already proved you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.

You call me a liberal all day long if you want, but you made a bunch of points in this thread and people have already pointed out how demonstrably wrong you were on everything. So you’re stock answer of shift the discussion comes out. But that won’t make anything you said correct.

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It’s odd to see people assert stuff that is so easily proven false on the internet. Seriously two minutes of google searching. I didn’t know that stuff off the top of my head. Shows how some people just post with emotion and have no idea if the things they are saying are correct.