The Declaration of Independence was just that…a declaration of independence. It didn’t found a nation and it isn’t the foundational document of the United States of America–that is the Constitution…
[/quote]
Completely, utterly, patently false.
The United State of America existed well before 1789 when the Constitution was ratified. The Articles of Confederation guided the federal government before Madison ever picked up a pen in regards to the Constitution.
The EXACT thing the Declaration of Independence did is found a nation.
Smh, did Pittbullllll get your sign-in password?[/quote]
This is an uncharacteristically weak rebuttal from you.
The Declaration of Independence was just that…a declaration of independence. It didn’t found a nation and it isn’t the foundational document of the United States of America–that is the Constitution, which mentions no Creator and no God, despite the fact that I’m sure you and many of the other posters around here sincerely wish it had. It mentions religion only once, in order to ban religious tests for office.
[/quote]
You would deride the importance of the declaration to further your argument? My quotation has been called “one of the best-known sentences in the English language” and “the most potent and consequential words in American history.” Lincoln argued that the declaration should be considered the “statement of principles upon which the Constitution should be interpreted.”
It uses the words “God” and “Creater” yet you say it doesn’t further my argument that the nation was not founded as a secular nation? Seriously?
Oh sure, the colonies were just chock-a-block full of Islamists and ancient Greeks.
[quote]
The one you believe in, or the one Jefferson believed in? Is it the Jesus of the Jefferson Bible, who performed few miracles and didn’t even rise from the dead? An anthropomorphic tyrant or a disinterested prime mover? What does this Creator look like? What does he do? What does he want from us? Would a group of men with such uncanny foresight as the founders unarguably displayed be willing to found a religious nation and then not mention religion in its most important, central document?[/quote]
The Constitution is a contract between the people, states and federal government. The declaration sets out the principles upon which the nation was founded.
The Declaration of Independence was just that…a declaration of independence. It didn’t found a nation and it isn’t the foundational document of the United States of America–that is the Constitution…
[/quote]
Completely, utterly, patently false.
The United State of America existed well before 1789 when the Constitution was ratified. The Articles of Confederation guided the federal government before Madison ever picked up a pen in regards to the Constitution.
The EXACT thing the Declaration of Independence did is found a nation.
Smh, did Pittbullllll get your sign-in password?[/quote]
The Declaration announced a nation, the Constitution created the nation we live in today. It doesn’t mention God. End of story.
[quote]smh23 wrote:
…the Constitution, which mentions no Creator and no God, despite the fact that I’m sure you and many of the other posters around here sincerely wish it had.[/quote]
Meh. I’ve got my own one.
‘Whereas the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God…’
[quote]H factor wrote:
Deism was quite popular at the time as well. Deism, while believing in a Creator, is FAR from Christianity. Essentially a God sets the universe in motion and lets it run according to its natural laws. Not an active God in that sense. Pointing at that phrase or under God is hardly evidence that they planned this as a Christian nation. After all many non Christian based religions believe in a creator or a God. [/quote]
Classical Deism as practiced by the Founders is a little different than Modern Deism, which in some respects is a step away from agnosticism and/or atheism. Several Founding Deist (Not all, especially Paine) could be further categorized as Christian Deists. This generally means that they respected and saw value in Christ’s teachings, but did not believe him to be divine. In a sense he was their chief philosopher, a model for his fellow man. I’m not a Christian myself and identify as a Deist.
I’m agnostic or atheist, but nice link. I hadn’t heard of Christian deism before, but seems to make a lot of sense for the time period we are talking of. I also see value in much of the Bible (I mean who can’t get behind though shalt not kill). I don’t believe a heaven nor hell exists and I don’t believe someone is waiting to judge me at the end of my days either. I think when I’m dead I will rot in the ground just like all those before me and that will be it. Don’t need to bury me with my valuables, I’m not going anywhere.
Deism isn’t widely practiced though worldwide? I mean obviously it’s nowhere near Christian or Muslim…but do you find a lot of other people who feel this way in your walks of life? [/quote]
Thanks, that applies to you as well. Deists are few in number. (I have never met someone in person who identifies as such) I do believe there are quite a few people out there who would qualify as Deists but aren’t aware of the term. There’s even a book titled “Deist: So that’s what I am!” to illustrate that. Despite what some may have you believe, it is not a dead philosophy. Deism is growing as America becomes more and more secular and Freethinker websites proliferate across the web. I’m also entertaining some Pandeistic thought into my worldview. It’s very consistent with science so I could see it appealing to someone who admires the mathematical eloquence of Atheism.
Here is a interesting youtube channel that does a good job of presenting it in a concise manner.
This is an uncharacteristically weak rebuttal from you.
The Declaration of Independence was just that…a declaration of independence. It didn’t found a nation and it isn’t the foundational document of the United States of America–that is the Constitution, which mentions no Creator and no God, despite the fact that I’m sure you and many of the other posters around here sincerely wish it had. It mentions religion only once, in order to ban religious tests for office.
[/quote]
You would deride the importance of the declaration to further your argument? My quotation has been called “one of the best-known sentences in the English language” and “the most potent and consequential words in American history.” Lincoln argued that the declaration should be considered the “statement of principles upon which the Constitution should be interpreted.”
[/quote]
Wait a minute, I’m deriding nothing. And two quotes lifted off of Wikipedia don’t change the fact that the Declaration is not a prescriptive document and does not establish a legal framework for government.
I’m stating the glaringly obvious fact that the Constitution is the foundational and prescriptive cornerstone of this nation. It is the one and sole supreme law of the land. The Declaration of Independence broke bonds with the King and listed some grievances. The Constitution created our government.
And the Constitution doesn’t mention God or Jesus or anything remotely having to do with religion other than to PROHIBIT TESTS FOR OFFICE.
Furthermore, the word “Creator” in the Declaration does not establish a religious nation or even provide any kind of hint as to which religion might be at the foundation of a hypothetical religious nation. And it was written by a non-Christian.
The Declaration of Independence was just that…a declaration of independence. It didn’t found a nation and it isn’t the foundational document of the United States of America–that is the Constitution…
[/quote]
Completely, utterly, patently false.
The United State of America existed well before 1789 when the Constitution was ratified. The Articles of Confederation guided the federal government before Madison ever picked up a pen in regards to the Constitution.
The EXACT thing the Declaration of Independence did is found a nation.
Smh, did Pittbullllll get your sign-in password?[/quote]
It’s a moot point. Jefferson was a Deist.
[/quote]
By the way, what does smh’s outrageously false assertion have to do with Jefferson’s deism and why is his absurdity in that regard a moot point?[/quote]
Because you are trying to equate the word “Creator” with Christianity.
Because you are trying to equate the word “Creator” with Christianity.[/quote]
Exactly.
I said the founders created a secular country (an inescapable conclusion for anyone with even a middle-school level of familiarity with the Constitution) and the word “Creator” was put forth as evidence against me.
Well, that word is not found in the Constitution–the foundational and prescriptive essence of this country and its laws–so it doesn’t really matter. At all. But let’s pretend it does: the word alone does not make this country religious, let alone Christian. I believe in a Creator and I might mention as much if I had the inclination to run off and found my own nation. But I despise religion and think all of it’s miracles utter nonsense.
Jefferson, too, thought Jesus’ miracles utter nonsense. And he wrote the word “Creator.” That’s why it matters.
Wait a minute, I’m deriding nothing. And two quotes lifted off of Wikipedia don’t change the fact that the Declaration is not a prescriptive document and does not establish a legal framework for government.
[/quote]
Wikipedia saves time. Right now, most my library is in long term storage. And who the Declaration established a “legal framework for government?” It sets out the principles upon which the nation was founded.
It doesn’t need to mention God as the declaration had already espoused the principles upon which the nation was founded.
[quote]
Furthermore, the word “Creator” in the Declaration does not establish a religious nation or even provide any kind of hint as to which religion might be at the foundation of a hypothetical religious nation. And it was written by a non-Christian.[/quote]
You argued that the nation was founded as a “secular nation.” That assertion is utterly false. Your argument that Allah or Prometheus could’ve been intended is completely fatuous. You are clearly not past cherry picking quotes from Adams in private letters later in his life to support your argument. For every quote you post from Adams I can post three more which suggest or state the opposite.
This is an uncharacteristically weak rebuttal from you.
The Declaration of Independence was just that…a declaration of independence. It didn’t found a nation and it isn’t the foundational document of the United States of America–that is the Constitution, which mentions no Creator and no God, despite the fact that I’m sure you and many of the other posters around here sincerely wish it had. It mentions religion only once, in order to ban religious tests for office.
[/quote]
You would deride the importance of the declaration to further your argument? My quotation has been called “one of the best-known sentences in the English language” and “the most potent and consequential words in American history.” Lincoln argued that the declaration should be considered the “statement of principles upon which the Constitution should be interpreted.”
[/quote]
While Lincoln was a man of deep faith, its not inaccurate to describe his worldview as “Calvinized Deism.” He did believe the Creator was an intervening deity, however. His invocations of Biblical quotes (A work he greatly admired) and Christian references were less reflective of his personal religious beliefs than an attempt to rally the nation.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Declaration of Independence = birth certificate
Constitution = “Rules and Responsibilities of the Nanny”
Child = nation
Parents = the States and the People[/quote]
All analogies limp. This is meaningless.
I will be more clear:
The question at hand concerns the secular or nonsecular character of the United States government.
The Constitution of the United States is the relevant document in this particular matter, because it is the foundational and prescriptive instrument of the United States government.
The Constitution of the United States establishes a government without religion. It conspicuously makes no mention of religion in general (save to prohibit religious tests for office) and Christianity in particular. It appeals to no God for legitimacy and proffers nothing to the superstitious that is not proffered to the deist or atheist.
Therefore, you and I, as citizens of the United States of America, are governed by a secular body.
