[quote]smh23 wrote:
…they founded a secular country…[/quote]
‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights…’[/quote]
Creator? Which one? Jefferson was an adamant Deist, so its safe to say he is referring to his conception of God. Nature’s God. The Creator. The Deus. The Grand Architect. Providence. I have no issue with Christianity. It has and continues to do much good in this world, as have other faiths. But to assert that the U.S. was founded upon Christian values is not historically accurate. Why isn’t religious freedom (or freedom from religion) enough for believers and non believers alike?
I could dwarf your list of quotes with one of my own. Absolutely, positively dwarf it. Crush you like a Spanish Inquisition torture device.[/quote]
You can produce primary evidence in support of your cause, I can produce primary evidence in support of mine. If the breadth of your evidence is greater, it’s in proportion to the number of eggshells upon which a critic of Christianity was forced to tread in the past.
It doesn’t do a thing to change or nullify the quotes I’ve produced. And I still contend, as I’ve been doing since the start of this discussion, that a believer as devout and passionate as Tirib would not consider a man like Jefferson any kind of Christian at all (he’s said as much before, so this isn’t exactly groundbreaking).
I still would like to hear your take on the Treaty of Tripoli. If you’re going to get into it, know that I don’t consider the language used in the document to provide a definitive answer to the question at hand, and wouldn’t unless it were an explicit clause found in the Constitution.
[quote]H factor wrote:
Deism was quite popular at the time as well. Deism, while believing in a Creator, is FAR from Christianity. Essentially a God sets the universe in motion and lets it run according to its natural laws. Not an active God in that sense. Pointing at that phrase or under God is hardly evidence that they planned this as a Christian nation. After all many non Christian based religions believe in a creator or a God. [/quote]
Classical Deism as practiced by the Founders is a little different than Modern Deism, which in some respects is a step away from agnosticism and/or atheism. Several Founding Deist (Not all, especially Paine) could be further categorized as Christian Deists. This generally means that they respected and saw value in Christ’s teachings, but did not believe him to be divine. In a sense he was their chief philosopher, a model for his fellow man. I’m not a Christian myself and identify as a Deist.
I could dwarf your list of quotes with one of my own. Absolutely, positively dwarf it. Crush you like a Spanish Inquisition torture device.[/quote]
You can produce primary evidence in support of your cause, I can produce primary evidence in support of mine. If the breadth of your evidence is greater, it’s in proportion to the number of eggshells upon which a critic of Christianity was forced to tread in the past.
It doesn’t do a thing to change or nullify the quotes I’ve produced. And I still contend, as I’ve been doing since the start of this discussion, that a believer as devout and passionate as Tirib would not consider a man like Jefferson any kind of Christian at all (he’s said as much before, so this isn’t exactly groundbreaking).
I still would like to hear your take on the Treaty of Tripoli. If you’re going to get into it, know that I don’t consider the language used in the document to provide a definitive answer to the question at hand, and wouldn’t unless it were an explicit clause found in the Constitution.[/quote]
Tirib has no issue with calling Jefferson a pagan heathen and then posting quotes of his talking about the God of Deism. Its intellectually inconsistent at best.
I could dwarf your list of quotes with one of my own. Absolutely, positively dwarf it. Crush you like a Spanish Inquisition torture device.[/quote]
You can produce primary evidence in support of your cause, I can produce primary evidence in support of mine. If the breadth of your evidence is greater, it’s in proportion to the number of eggshells upon which a critic of Christianity was forced to tread in the past.
It doesn’t do a thing to change or nullify the quotes I’ve produced. And I still contend, as I’ve been doing since the start of this discussion, that a believer as devout and passionate as Tirib would not consider a man like Jefferson any kind of Christian at all (he’s said as much before, so this isn’t exactly groundbreaking).
I still would like to hear your take on the Treaty of Tripoli. If you’re going to get into it, know that I don’t consider the language used in the document to provide a definitive answer to the question at hand, and wouldn’t unless it were an explicit clause found in the Constitution.[/quote]
Tirib has no issue with calling Jefferson a pagan heathen and then posting quotes of his talking about the God of Deism. Its intellectually inconsistent at best.[/quote]
You should post more (I’m serious). You’re a breath of fresh air here. Careful though, intellectual inconsistency is RAMPANT here. Seems to be getting a bit better on the whole I’d hope.
[quote]H factor wrote:
Deism was quite popular at the time as well. Deism, while believing in a Creator, is FAR from Christianity. Essentially a God sets the universe in motion and lets it run according to its natural laws. Not an active God in that sense. Pointing at that phrase or under God is hardly evidence that they planned this as a Christian nation. After all many non Christian based religions believe in a creator or a God. [/quote]
Classical Deism as practiced by the Founders is a little different than Modern Deism, which in some respects is a step away from agnosticism and/or atheism. Several Founding Deist (Not all, especially Paine) could be further categorized as Christian Deists. This generally means that they respected and saw value in Christ’s teachings, but did not believe him to be divine. In a sense he was their chief philosopher, a model for his fellow man. I’m not a Christian myself and identify as a Deist.
I’m agnostic or atheist, but nice link. I hadn’t heard of Christian deism before, but seems to make a lot of sense for the time period we are talking of. I also see value in much of the Bible (I mean who can’t get behind though shalt not kill). I don’t believe a heaven nor hell exists and I don’t believe someone is waiting to judge me at the end of my days either. I think when I’m dead I will rot in the ground just like all those before me and that will be it. Don’t need to bury me with my valuables, I’m not going anywhere.
Deism isn’t widely practiced though worldwide? I mean obviously it’s nowhere near Christian or Muslim…but do you find a lot of other people who feel this way in your walks of life?
[quote]smh23 wrote:
…they founded a secular country…[/quote]
‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights…’[/quote]
This is an uncharacteristically weak rebuttal from you.
The Declaration of Independence was just that…a declaration of independence. It didn’t found a nation and it isn’t the foundational document of the United States of America–that is the Constitution, which mentions no Creator and no God, despite the fact that I’m sure you and many of the other posters around here sincerely wish it had. It mentions religion only once, in order to ban religious tests for office.
Even if we were to ignore the fact that the Declaration is not a Constitution–which we won’t–the word “Creator” does nothing to advance the argument that this is a Christian or nonsecular nation. Which Creator? God, Allah, Prometheus/Athena? The one you believe in, or the one Jefferson believed in? Is it the Jesus of the Jefferson Bible, who performed few miracles and didn’t even rise from the dead? An anthropomorphic tyrant or a disinterested prime mover? What does this Creator look like? What does he do? What does he want from us? Would a group of men with such uncanny foresight as the founders unarguably displayed be willing to found a religious nation and then not mention religion in its most important, central document?
Jefferson was brilliant. He was also an odd duck. The two often go together.[/quote]
This is very true. Somewhere around my office I have a letter that he wrote to a woman while living in France. It’s full of thinly-veiled, old-fashioned dick jokes. Hilarious and also slightly unsettling to see one of the most prodigious thinkers in American history engaging in the same kind of humor that drives the American Pie movies. I’ll try and find it.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
You know what I like about TJ as much as anything? No president believed in limited government more fervently.
He did what he had to do to assert American sovereignty, i.e., Barbary Pirates, and he was enlightened enough to know a good deal when he saw one, i.e., Louisiana Purchase, but he understood the proper role of the federal government.
However, like all men he wasn’t infallible. You can’t have him as the sole paddler in your canoe. Dudes.[/quote]
Kind of off topic but that’s not the entire historical story. Jefferson’s signed the purchase. Madison’s support of Toussaint L’Ouverture and the Haitian Revolution laid the groundwork which made it possible. One of my mentors is writing a book on the subject.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
You know what I like about TJ as much as anything? No president believed in limited government more fervently.
He did what he had to do to assert American sovereignty, i.e., Barbary Pirates, and he was enlightened enough to know a good deal when he saw one, i.e., Louisiana Purchase, but he understood the proper role of the federal government.
However, like all men he wasn’t infallible. You can’t have him as the sole paddler in your canoe. Dudes.[/quote]
Kind of off topic but that’s not the entire historical story. Jefferson’s signed the purchase. Madison’s support of Toussaint L’Ouverture and the Haitian Revolution laid the groundwork which made it possible. One of my mentors is writing a book on the subject.[/quote]
Really? Mind if I ask who? My father wrote a book about Haiti and the American South and is now working on another one about L’Ouverture. I’m sure they know each other or at least of each other, because it’s a pretty small group of guys who always run into each other at conferences (nerd parties).
[quote]pushharder wrote:
You know what I like about TJ as much as anything? No president believed in limited government more fervently.
He did what he had to do to assert American sovereignty, i.e., Barbary Pirates, and he was enlightened enough to know a good deal when he saw one, i.e., Louisiana Purchase, but he understood the proper role of the federal government.
However, like all men he wasn’t infallible. You can’t have him as the sole paddler in your canoe. Dudes.[/quote]
Kind of off topic but that’s not the entire historical story. Jefferson’s signed the purchase. Madison’s support of Toussaint L’Ouverture and the Haitian Revolution laid the groundwork which made it possible. One of my mentors is writing a book on the subject.[/quote]
Really? Mind if I ask who? My father wrote a book about Haiti and the American South and is now working on another one about L’Ouverture. I’m sure they know each other or at least of each other, because it’s a pretty small group of guys who always run into each other at conferences (nerd parties).[/quote]
