[quote]ZEB wrote:
So when that we translate the Bible, we do not translate from a translation of a translation of a translation. We translate from the original language into our language. It is a one step process and not a series of steps that can lead to corruption. [/quote]
ZEB, I disagree with you slightly. As with my example earlier for the virgin birth, you’ll find newer editions that correctly translate Isaiah as saying “young woman” or “maiden,” and then translate the New Testament to say “virgin.” The Greeks corrupted the text when translating, and some of those corruptions were carried forward into the King James version. Newer versions do show some of these discrepancies, but as we can see from this example, they can be quite significant.
[quote]ConanSpeaks wrote:
Vegita wrote:
…though I’ve never sat and read it straight through. Regardless, I don’t need to read the bible or even understand it to question it’s accuracy."
V
I think everyone in these threads is under the impression that these are “intellectual” discussions. How can one engage in an “intelligent” exchange if they do not have a full understanding of what they are discussing?
This is why law schools teach you to argue a case from both sides. In order to mount a credible defense of your beliefs you must not only have a deep understanding of your argument but an understanding of the opposing point of view as well. I think there are far too many people in these threads who don’t even know enough to support their own point of view, let alone attack someone elses.
That being said, these debate about the “Bible”, “Creation”, etc. have achieved nothing productive on these forums. All it has done in my opinion is prove to people how militant and annoying people can be about religion. One poster put it aptly when he said “…if you want to talk to me about religion, have a personal conversation with me.”
If you need something of a Biblical nature to make you reconsider what you are accomplishing in this forum, then think about the example of Jesus. Jesus never engaged in protracted philisophical debates. His answers, as recorded in the Bible were short and to the point.
To those who have a poor opinion of the Bible because of things that have been done in the name of God. My advice to you is to read the Bible. If you really study it you will find that most of the things that have been done in the name of God are actually contrary to what is written in the Bible.
Lastly, you really should be in the gym lifting instead of wasting your time on sensless debates… and so should I.[/quote]
Seeing as we are not discussing the content of the bible and weather it’s good or bad, i’m not sure where you are coming from. We are discussing the possibility or probability that the bible is or isn’t historically accurate and spiritually accurate according to the origional prophets intent.
My argument again, is that it is my belief that things the origionals thought, did not make it to us and things they did not think did make it to us. It is exactly the telephone game example ZEB described erlier. Even more so, I have seen the same expiriment done in a lecture hall type atmosphere. One person would go up and deliver a sentance or two long message. Then the next day the people in the hall had to come back and write down what the message said. Some got the words and meaning perfect, while many got the meaningm to a point and still others messed the whole thing up.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
My argument again, is that it is my belief that things the origionals thought, did not make it to us and things they did not think did make it to us. It is exactly the telephone game example ZEB described erlier. Even more so, I have seen the same expiriment done in a lecture hall type atmosphere. One person would go up and deliver a sentance or two long message. Then the next day the people in the hall had to come back and write down what the message said. Some got the words and meaning perfect, while many got the meaningm to a point and still others messed the whole thing up.
V[/quote]
The example that I gave from the web site offered stated that this “telephone” game did NOT happen when it comes to the Bible. And in fact the scriptures are as, or more accurate than most writings of antiquity
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Vegita wrote:
My argument again, is that it is my belief that things the origionals thought, did not make it to us and things they did not think did make it to us. It is exactly the telephone game example ZEB described erlier. Even more so, I have seen the same expiriment done in a lecture hall type atmosphere. One person would go up and deliver a sentance or two long message. Then the next day the people in the hall had to come back and write down what the message said. Some got the words and meaning perfect, while many got the meaningm to a point and still others messed the whole thing up.
V
The example that I gave from the web site offered stated that this “telephone” game did NOT happen when it comes to the Bible. And in fact the scriptures are as, or more accurate than most writings of antiquity
Please read this again:
[/quote]
Zeb, I realise that some people say it didn’t happen, but seriously, just because they say it didn’t still does not prove anything. The evidence they provide is anecdotal. Nobody has the origional Documents that were used to create the scriptures in the bible. Even if they had the origionals, they were written in aramaic and sanskrit as well as parts in greek. Even with our modern languages it is impossible to fully translate with 100% accuracy. When someone says something in japanese for instance, a translator would give the english version as close as possible, they can’t always produce the exact mental picture of what the origional speaker was saying but they can get very close and get the gist of the message across. Again, I will admit that the bible may be very accurate technically speaking from what we can tell, but there is too much of a gap between when the origional texts were supposedly written and the actual oldest copies we have.
This is similar to the forged CBS documents that you were so against. They were typed copies of a handwritten note. I believe you had thoughts along the lines of, …show me the origional note in his handwriting and I’ll believe it. And even then, people were debating the meaning of his comments. Were they negative about GWB’s character? Were they being twisted to make him look bad when they weren’t meant to read that way. And this supposed document was only copied once or maybe twice, and is only 20 or 30 years old. Yet the country was divided on if it was real or not, and what the meaning was.
For all we know, the people who wrote the scriptures, were feeding off jesuses popularity to propel thier own personal life. They could have written in things to benefit themselves in their personal situations and claimed jesus said these things. The fact is, know one can know with 100% certainty that such things did not happen and that everything happened just as it was written. I hope you see my point on this and at least admit the possibility of the bible being 99% accurate.
Zeb, I realise that some people say it didn’t happen, but seriously, just because they say it didn’t still does not prove anything.[/quote]
How do you know Plato said what he said?
Do you want them to do a study on this? I don’t get where you are coming from, Sorry.
No actually the New Testament was written in Greek. That is what we were discussing, or did I miss something (wouldn’t be the first time:)
[quote]Even with our modern languages it is impossible to fully translate with 100% accuracy. When someone says something in japanese for instance, a translator would give the english version as close as possible, they can’t always produce the exact mental picture of what the origional speaker was saying but they can get very close and get the gist of the message across.
So then nothing is every accurate, yet you read some other spiritual things that apparently you like, meditation etc. Are they accurate? How do you know that this is “good stuff?” Is it just fun to do? What do you base your current belief on if nothing that has ever been written is accurate?
Please explain to me what this means, I don’t want to get it wrong.
I don’t think I commented on those particular documents, but I know what you mean.
Feeding off his popularity? Do you deny that Jesus performed miracles? If someone performed a miracle in your presence (repeatedly) I think that you might be motivated to write and tell about it.
Um…people used to get killed (or at least badly treated) for being Christian…
[quote]The fact is, know one can know with 100% certainty that such things did not happen and that everything happened just as it was written. I hope you see my point on this and at least admit the possibility of the bible being 99% accurate.
V[/quote]
If the New Testament was indeed 99% accurate (it is 100%) then what stops you from believing it’s message?
Sorry I was not very helpful. I tried to be helpful in sending you what I consider some very high quality proof of the accuracy of the New Testament. I think your standards are a bit unrealistic (if you don’t mind me saying so). It seems unless you are there watching every moment you will not believe in anything. I wonder how you can study World history, or even American history with the stance that you are taking. Am I assuming to much here? It seems that you are the ultimate “doubting Thomas.”
Either way take care,
If there is anything that I can do for you relative to this topic, or anything else for that matter, you only have to PM me!
We don’t, and it would be silly to devote your entire life to living purely based on what he is believed to have said. More importantly, you are free to challenge what he is supposed to have written because no one makes the claim that it was divinely inspired.
We don’t, and it would be silly to devote your entire life to living purely based on what he is believed to have said. More importantly, you are free to challenge what he is supposed to have written because no one makes the claim that it was divinely inspired.
[/quote]
But…I don’t think Plato raised anyone from the dead. Nor, did Plato claim to be of God.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Please read this again:
Zeb, I realise that some people say it didn’t happen, but seriously, just because they say it didn’t still does not prove anything.
How do you know Plato said what he said?
The evidence they provide is anecdotal.
Do you want them to do a study on this? I don’t get where you are coming from, Sorry.
Nobody has the origional Documents that were used to create the scriptures in the bible. Even if they had the origionals, they were written in aramaic and sanskrit as well as parts in greek.
No actually the New Testament was written in Greek. That is what we were discussing, or did I miss something (wouldn’t be the first time:)
Even with our modern languages it is impossible to fully translate with 100% accuracy. When someone says something in japanese for instance, a translator would give the english version as close as possible, they can’t always produce the exact mental picture of what the origional speaker was saying but they can get very close and get the gist of the message across.
So then nothing is every accurate, yet you read some other spiritual things that apparently you like, meditation etc. Are they accurate? How do you know that this is “good stuff?” Is it just fun to do? What do you base your current belief on if nothing that has ever been written is accurate?
Again, I will admit that the bible may be very accurate technically speaking from what we can tell, but there is too much of a gap between when the origional texts were supposedly written and the actual oldest copies we have.
Please explain to me what this means, I don’t want to get it wrong.
This is similar to the forged CBS documents that you were so against. They were typed copies of a handwritten note. I believe you had thoughts along the lines of, …show me the origional note in his handwriting and I’ll believe it. And even then, people were debating the meaning of his comments. Were they negative about GWB’s character? Were they being twisted to make him look bad when they weren’t meant to read that way. And this supposed document was only copied once or maybe twice, and is only 20 or 30 years old. Yet the country was divided on if it was real or not, and what the meaning was.
I don’t think I commented on those particular documents, but I know what you mean.
For all we know, the people who wrote the scriptures, were feeding off jesuses popularity to propel thier own personal life.
Feeding off his popularity? Do you deny that Jesus performed miracles? If someone performed a miracle in your presence (repeatedly) I think that you might be motivated to write and tell about it.
They could have written in things to benefit themselves in their personal situations and claimed jesus said these things.
Um…people used to get killed (or at least badly treated) for being Christian…
The fact is, know one can know with 100% certainty that such things did not happen and that everything happened just as it was written. I hope you see my point on this and at least admit the possibility of the bible being 99% accurate.
V
If the New Testament was indeed 99% accurate (it is 100%) then what stops you from believing it’s message?
Sorry I was not very helpful. I tried to be helpful in sending you what I consider some very high quality proof of the accuracy of the New Testament. I think your standards are a bit unrealistic (if you don’t mind me saying so). It seems unless you are there watching every moment you will not believe in anything. I wonder how you can study World history, or even American history with the stance that you are taking. Am I assuming to much here? It seems that you are the ultimate “doubting Thomas.”
Either way take care,
If there is anything that I can do for you relative to this topic, or anything else for that matter, you only have to PM me!
Zeb
[/quote]
If you know where the origional copies of the new testament are and can show them to me written in greek I will believe you. Just because someone told you they were written in greek, doesn’t mean they were.
I was also talking about the old testament, that is part of the bible also right?
[quote]Vegita wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Please read this again:
Zeb, I realise that some people say it didn’t happen, but seriously, just because they say it didn’t still does not prove anything.
How do you know Plato said what he said?
The evidence they provide is anecdotal.
Do you want them to do a study on this? I don’t get where you are coming from, Sorry.
Nobody has the origional Documents that were used to create the scriptures in the bible. Even if they had the origionals, they were written in aramaic and sanskrit as well as parts in greek.
No actually the New Testament was written in Greek. That is what we were discussing, or did I miss something (wouldn’t be the first time:)
Even with our modern languages it is impossible to fully translate with 100% accuracy. When someone says something in japanese for instance, a translator would give the english version as close as possible, they can’t always produce the exact mental picture of what the origional speaker was saying but they can get very close and get the gist of the message across.
So then nothing is every accurate, yet you read some other spiritual things that apparently you like, meditation etc. Are they accurate? How do you know that this is “good stuff?” Is it just fun to do? What do you base your current belief on if nothing that has ever been written is accurate?
Again, I will admit that the bible may be very accurate technically speaking from what we can tell, but there is too much of a gap between when the origional texts were supposedly written and the actual oldest copies we have.
Please explain to me what this means, I don’t want to get it wrong.
This is similar to the forged CBS documents that you were so against. They were typed copies of a handwritten note. I believe you had thoughts along the lines of, …show me the origional note in his handwriting and I’ll believe it. And even then, people were debating the meaning of his comments. Were they negative about GWB’s character? Were they being twisted to make him look bad when they weren’t meant to read that way. And this supposed document was only copied once or maybe twice, and is only 20 or 30 years old. Yet the country was divided on if it was real or not, and what the meaning was.
I don’t think I commented on those particular documents, but I know what you mean.
For all we know, the people who wrote the scriptures, were feeding off jesuses popularity to propel thier own personal life.
Feeding off his popularity? Do you deny that Jesus performed miracles? If someone performed a miracle in your presence (repeatedly) I think that you might be motivated to write and tell about it.
They could have written in things to benefit themselves in their personal situations and claimed jesus said these things.
Um…people used to get killed (or at least badly treated) for being Christian…
The fact is, know one can know with 100% certainty that such things did not happen and that everything happened just as it was written. I hope you see my point on this and at least admit the possibility of the bible being 99% accurate.
V
If the New Testament was indeed 99% accurate (it is 100%) then what stops you from believing it’s message?
Sorry I was not very helpful. I tried to be helpful in sending you what I consider some very high quality proof of the accuracy of the New Testament. I think your standards are a bit unrealistic (if you don’t mind me saying so). It seems unless you are there watching every moment you will not believe in anything. I wonder how you can study World history, or even American history with the stance that you are taking. Am I assuming to much here? It seems that you are the ultimate “doubting Thomas.”
Either way take care,
If there is anything that I can do for you relative to this topic, or anything else for that matter, you only have to PM me!
Zeb
If you know where the origional copies of the new testament are and can show them to me written in greek I will believe you. Just because someone told you they were written in greek, doesn’t mean they were.
I was also talking about the old testament, that is part of the bible also right?
V[/quote]
The NT was written in greek, and if I remember correctly most of the earlier copies of it are at the John Hopkins library.
As for the OT. I saw the DSS exhibit at the Houston museum. I am positive the mss that I saw were written in Hebrew. If you want to me to show you those text let me know. I will find where the exhibit is now get a plane ticket and meet you there.
Skeptics and believers alike all agree on the languages the Bible were written in. All would agree the earliest copies of the NT were written in Greek.
The translations we have in english are not word for word, they are idea for idea.
The few that are word for word are tough to understand for the lay person, but the message is still the same.
I am just taking a wild guess, but it seems like you have a little bit of knowledge about this stuff. Which you are using to make some assumptions.
I think it would be in your best interest to do a little research on it.
If you want an anti-Christian website I would suggest infidels.org (they have articles and a forum)
Haney, I do not wish to research it to the extent that it would take to change my mind on it because that level of comfort is basically unreachable for me. My view of existance is already evolved to the point where I don’t believe god meddles in the different planes of reality in any way whatsoever. I do believe one could ask something of god and have a reply, or insight given, but I do not think in any way shape or form that god has the intention of people worshoping him, following any set rules or following a path to him.
All paths lead to him in my view, some are longer than others, some are harder than others, all go to the same “place” in the end… “which in actuality is the beginning”.
If you proved all of my questions, showed me this person doing miracles in the name of god. I would still question his authenticity. Could he not be a higher being simply manipulating mankind for his own purpose? Are you familiar with the TV show or movie Stargate SG1. In the show, aliens who inhabit humans, appear to the naked eye to be all powerful, or very powerful and they call themselves gods.
The uneducated masses believe every word they speak as the word of god. This is a possible scenario in my mind as the universe is vast and existance is even more vast. Any possibility is possible, so that is what I live my life by.
The NT was written in greek, and if I remember correctly most of the earlier copies of it are at the John Hopkins library.
As for the OT. I saw the DSS exhibit at the Houston museum. I am positive the mss that I saw were written in Hebrew. If you want to me to show you those text let me know. I will find where the exhibit is now get a plane ticket and meet you there.
Skeptics and believers alike all agree on the languages the Bible were written in. All would agree the earliest copies of the NT were written in Greek.
The translations we have in english are not word for word, they are idea for idea.
The few that are word for word are tough to understand for the lay person, but the message is still the same.
I am just taking a wild guess, but it seems like you have a little bit of knowledge about this stuff. Which you are using to make some assumptions.
I think it would be in your best interest to do a little research on it.
If you want an anti-Christian website I would suggest infidels.org (they have articles and a forum)
[quote]haney wrote:
How do you know Plato said what he said?
[/quote]
A better example would be Socrates, who wrote nothing. We only have what is reported to us from Xenophon, Plato, Aristophenes, etc. In that sense, we do sometimes have conflicting accounts, and we have to decipher as best we can.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Haney, I do not wish to research it to the extent that it would take to change my mind on it because that level of comfort is basically unreachable for me. My view of existance is already evolved to the point where I don’t believe god meddles in the different planes of reality in any way whatsoever. I do believe one could ask something of god and have a reply, or insight given, but I do not think in any way shape or form that god has the intention of people worshoping him, following any set rules or following a path to him.
All paths lead to him in my view, some are longer than others, some are harder than others, all go to the same “place” in the end… “which in actuality is the beginning”.
If you proved all of my questions, showed me this person doing miracles in the name of god. I would still question his authenticity. Could he not be a higher being simply manipulating mankind for his own purpose? Are you familiar with the TV show or movie Stargate SG1. In the show, aliens who inhabit humans, appear to the naked eye to be all powerful, or very powerful and they call themselves gods.
The uneducated masses believe every word they speak as the word of god. This is a possible scenario in my mind as the universe is vast and existance is even more vast. Any possibility is possible, so that is what I live my life by.
V[/quote]
Well that says alot about your whole take on this conversation.
In a sense you put the Bible under what you want to believe about it and shut off any outside opinion or truth behind it, or against it.
It could be right. It could also be wrong. You will never know because it is not worth the effort to educate yourself on its beginnings. You can’t throw around assertions based on what limited knowledge you have about it.
Don’t get me wrong. You seem like a good guy, and I have no problem with you saying I don’t care to find out. I do wish you would not start a thread on Christians and their take on the Bible and the constitution if you don’t wish to know more about the reason why we believe what we believe.
Why our trust in the Bible is our foundation.
You are more than welcome to ask questions and be skeptical. It just seems like you are only trying to throw stones at our faith rather than actually learn.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
haney wrote:
How do you know Plato said what he said?
A better example would be Socrates, who wrote nothing. We only have what is reported to us from Xenophon, Plato, Aristophenes, etc. In that sense, we do sometimes have conflicting accounts, and we have to decipher as best we can. [/quote]
[quote]haney wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Haney, I do not wish to research it to the extent that it would take to change my mind on it because that level of comfort is basically unreachable for me. My view of existance is already evolved to the point where I don’t believe god meddles in the different planes of reality in any way whatsoever. I do believe one could ask something of god and have a reply, or insight given, but I do not think in any way shape or form that god has the intention of people worshoping him, following any set rules or following a path to him.
All paths lead to him in my view, some are longer than others, some are harder than others, all go to the same “place” in the end… “which in actuality is the beginning”.
If you proved all of my questions, showed me this person doing miracles in the name of god. I would still question his authenticity. Could he not be a higher being simply manipulating mankind for his own purpose? Are you familiar with the TV show or movie Stargate SG1. In the show, aliens who inhabit humans, appear to the naked eye to be all powerful, or very powerful and they call themselves gods.
The uneducated masses believe every word they speak as the word of god. This is a possible scenario in my mind as the universe is vast and existance is even more vast. Any possibility is possible, so that is what I live my life by.
V
Well that says alot about your whole take on this conversation.
In a sense you put the Bible under what you want to believe about it and shut off any outside opinion or truth behind it, or against it.
It could be right. It could also be wrong. You will never know because it is not worth the effort to educate yourself on its beginnings. You can’t throw around assertions based on what limited knowledge you have about it.
Don’t get me wrong. You seem like a good guy, and I have no problem with you saying I don’t care to find out. I do wish you would not start a thread on Christians and their take on the Bible and the constitution if you don’t wish to know more about the reason why we believe what we believe.
Why our trust in the Bible is our foundation.
You are more than welcome to ask questions and be skeptical. It just seems like you are only trying to throw stones at our faith rather than actually learn.
Good luck though!
[/quote]
Actually I was baiting a little bit. I wanted to see if many people have researched the origins of thier religion, and are comfortable with the amount of evidence that supports the premise that people have not tampered with thier religion. To be honest, for some of you who have researched it, I am not sure how you can be totaly comfortable. I am not an overly skeptical person, but I can’t give one thing full credit when there are many other things that go against it that have just as much anecdotal evidence to support them.
If you guys are all right then perhaps I might have to sit in pergatory for a while, I’m ok with that. If my sould is everlasting, then I guess I have time. If I do go to hell, well, sucks to be me, and I don’t really want to be in heaven with a god that could send someone like me to eternal suffering. I guess I’ll have to drink beer, get a prostitute every day, do a butt load of drugs and be good buddies with the devil and all those evil deeds.
Seriously just kidding there, but i’m not too worried about my after life or whatever.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Haney, I do not wish to research it to the extent that it would take to change my mind on it because that level of comfort is basically unreachable for me. My view of existance is already evolved to the point where I don’t believe god meddles in the different planes of reality in any way whatsoever. I do believe one could ask something of god and have a reply, or insight given, but I do not think in any way shape or form that god has the intention of people worshoping him, following any set rules or following a path to him.
All paths lead to him in my view, some are longer than others, some are harder than others, all go to the same “place” in the end… “which in actuality is the beginning”.
If you proved all of my questions, showed me this person doing miracles in the name of god. I would still question his authenticity. Could he not be a higher being simply manipulating mankind for his own purpose? Are you familiar with the TV show or movie Stargate SG1. In the show, aliens who inhabit humans, appear to the naked eye to be all powerful, or very powerful and they call themselves gods.
The uneducated masses believe every word they speak as the word of god. This is a possible scenario in my mind as the universe is vast and existance is even more vast. Any possibility is possible, so that is what I live my life by.
V[/quote]
How about human psychology, where you ask a question and your subconcious constantly searches for an answer or explanation and that insight you are given after praying could be simple human psychology at work. You pray - you are asking a question to your God and your subconcious doesn’t know this so it takes it as a question to it, thus it searches for an answer and when it finds something that answers it, your insight, in which you think it is God, is simply your own mind answering your prayer or question.
I believe the bible is based upon the human psychology of always searching for an answer for the unexplained. Putting your faith in a higher power is a common, easy answer to anything you can’t explain. It gives you peace of mind to have an answer to an unanswerable question(s). Every human group/tribe/sect has believed in some sort of higher power regardless of the origin, thus God could very well be our own minds creation.
No one believes in Zeus anymore or the God of crops from the Indians. That’s because of the message of current religions, ours is better, yours is wrong so join us. Shameful psychology for which it should be ashamed.
[quote]Actually I was baiting a little bit. I wanted to see if many people have researched the origins of thier religion, and are comfortable with the amount of evidence that supports the premise that people have not tampered with thier religion. To be honest, for some of you who have researched it, I am not sure how you can be totaly comfortable. I am not an overly skeptical person, but I can’t give one thing full credit when there are many other things that go against it that have just as much anecdotal evidence to support them.
If you guys are all right then perhaps I might have to sit in pergatory for a while, I’m ok with that. If my sould is everlasting, then I guess I have time. If I do go to hell, well, sucks to be me, and I don’t really want to be in heaven with a god that could send someone like me to eternal suffering. I guess I’ll have to drink beer, get a prostitute every day, do a butt load of drugs and be good buddies with the devil and all those evil deeds.
Seriously just kidding there, but i’m not too worried about my after life or whatever.
V[/quote]
Apparently, you can do all that and still repent and ask for God’s forgiveness and you’ll still goto heaven.
However, make no mistake about it, that is not at all what Jesus Christ is talking about in the New Testament:
Thank God that we have his own personal interpreter ZEB on these boards to clear any confusion :]
I point out the obvious as that is all I am capable of doing. Sorry that this spurs sarcasm.
[/quote]
Pointing out the obvious? To take your Plato example, if I said that " make no mistake, this is what Plato meant as he was writing this" I wouldn’t take that as obvious. I would say that is pretty opinionated, closed minded and dare I say arrogant to belive that I could so positively say what the author meant–and he’s not even the “son of God”
