As I stated earlier, “…works do not bring salvation to a person; they are the result of salvation.”
[quote]blacksheep wrote:
As I stated earlier, “…works do not bring salvation to a person; they are the result of salvation.” [/quote]
So what does that mean for us? We all have salvation regardless?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I beleive that through Salvation and our love for Christ we will want to be like him. In that works are part of it, but those works are not what save us. Each person has a gift that God has bestowed upon us, but what is each persons gift? We are all apart of the body, so not everyone can do the same work. That brings us to the fruit of the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
I have a lot of work to do on the Patience, Gentleness, and Self-Control as we all saw from several of my posts. If we are not bearing fruit then we are a dead branch and must be pruned or cut off. I hope I am only pruned because that is discipline, and when God disciplines us that means he loves us, and then we will bear more fruit. Cut off means we will be cast into the fire, as shown in John 15:1-8.
[/quote]
I think we are on the same page here. Works can’t save us, but they are required. The ransom of Christ is what saves us, and is available to all that truly want it.
Have I interpreted you correctly?
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I beleive that through Salvation and our love for Christ we will want to be like him. In that works are part of it, but those works are not what save us. Each person has a gift that God has bestowed upon us, but what is each persons gift? We are all apart of the body, so not everyone can do the same work. That brings us to the fruit of the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
I have a lot of work to do on the Patience, Gentleness, and Self-Control as we all saw from several of my posts. If we are not bearing fruit then we are a dead branch and must be pruned or cut off. I hope I am only pruned because that is discipline, and when God disciplines us that means he loves us, and then we will bear more fruit. Cut off means we will be cast into the fire, as shown in John 15:1-8.
[/quote]
I think we are on the same page here. Works can’t save us, but they are required. The ransom of Christ is what saves us, and is available to all that truly want it.
Have I interpreted you correctly?[/quote]
Works are not required for or to keep salvation. Once we follow Jesus we will want to turn from our wicked ways, repent, and want to do good works. Wanting to do works and being forced to do good works are two separate things in my opinion. This is what Grace is for. We are sinful, and no matter how much work we do we are going to sin. God delights in us, and wants us to walk with him, as Adam and Eve did in the garden. God does not want robots. If he did he would not have given us free will. I have three young children. I love every time they see me and go crazy wanting to have a hug from me. I love it when they want to sit in my lap and talk. This is what God wants from us. God is God and he does not need us, but he wants us. He gives us the free gift of eternal life through his Grace and the ransom paid by his son Jesus Christ. God is very approachable, and speaks to us through his Holy Spirit, the Word, His Son, and the Church.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Nytebane wrote:
That couldn’t be any more perfect “I shall show you my faith by my works.” That pretty much sums everything up in a nutshell=) however… arguing over whats right and wrong is not the way. Alot often miss the point debating over who is more devout in their faiths. Take a look at the religious zealots over in the middle east.
History has shown and proven that man is flawed… We are definitely not perfect… Given that, there is no reason to be overly zealous because we will never achieve perfection no matter how hard we try. I think we take religion too far sometimes… which can be a good thing or a bad thing… I don’t know… I’m just ranting… ignore me LOL haven’t had good sleep in a while and trolling the forums is not helping=) have a good day all.
[/quote]
I think having a civil discourse about rights and wrongs of beliefs is a good thing. Different religions believe different things. Quite frankly some of them are wrong, that goes for me too. I believe core dogma is correct but some of the other tenants may not be, it’s worth discussing. The key is ‘civil discourse’. Having a long dick contest with your religious beliefs is counter productive.[/quote]
Oh I completely agree with the “CIVIL DISCOURSE” part… I believe it is healthy to have intelligent discussions about beliefs. However, you do have some people that have no idea what CIVIL is lol… I also do believe that we as humans are starting to come around and evolve around having civil discussions about beliefs but there is still bloodshed and wrongs. Here in my city (philadelphia) there is such a diverse community of religions and beliefs here that I do get a chance to see the uncivil discourse about rights and wrongs. I completely agree with you but it never seems to work out that way, well in most cases alot of people seem to exploit their differences and put fourth their efforts towards bashing each other physically or mentally. This is a healthy discussion indeed over forums however I believe this discussions is over whats better for you… an apple or an orange lol… Everyone here seems to have knowledge of whats right or wrong and I seem to agree with everyones side of the debate as each have a different take on it… but they all inevitably lead to the same thing do they not? Practicing good faith AND works. Or did I miss something? Last but not least I think that if everyone thought the way you did, with healthy civil intelligent discussions about faiths and religions we’d all be in good hands… however thats not the case sometimes…(as an example) You try telling a budhist or follower of jihad or hindi etc. that their ways of life and beliefs are wrong and I assure you, you wont get the healthy civil intelligent debate… Some people are not as open to discussion about the flaws of man or flaws of religion and especially their own. Naive as it may be “it is what it is” lol. I’m sorry if I’m hard to understand on here my grammar is not that great=) but this is definitely a civil and intelligent discussion. Thanks for your replies and have a good day.
EDITED for my failure grammar and broken subjects lol been out of school for too long.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I beleive that through Salvation and our love for Christ we will want to be like him. In that works are part of it, but those works are not what save us. Each person has a gift that God has bestowed upon us, but what is each persons gift? We are all apart of the body, so not everyone can do the same work. That brings us to the fruit of the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
I have a lot of work to do on the Patience, Gentleness, and Self-Control as we all saw from several of my posts. If we are not bearing fruit then we are a dead branch and must be pruned or cut off. I hope I am only pruned because that is discipline, and when God disciplines us that means he loves us, and then we will bear more fruit. Cut off means we will be cast into the fire, as shown in John 15:1-8.
[/quote]
I think we are on the same page here. Works can’t save us, but they are required. The ransom of Christ is what saves us, and is available to all that truly want it.
Have I interpreted you correctly?[/quote]
Works are not required for or to keep salvation. Once we follow Jesus we will want to turn from our wicked ways, repent, and want to do good works. Wanting to do works and being forced to do good works are two separate things in my opinion. This is what Grace is for. We are sinful, and no matter how much work we do we are going to sin. God delights in us, and wants us to walk with him, as Adam and Eve did in the garden. God does not want robots. If he did he would not have given us free will. I have three young children. I love every time they see me and go crazy wanting to have a hug from me. I love it when they want to sit in my lap and talk. This is what God wants from us. God is God and he does not need us, but he wants us. He gives us the free gift of eternal life through his Grace and the ransom paid by his son Jesus Christ. God is very approachable, and speaks to us through his Holy Spirit, the Word, His Son, and the Church.[/quote]
What if I don’t follow jesus?? I have a son that I love to death and I love that he wants to give me a hug as well. I try my best to be the best that I can for my child and lead him on the right path. What if I’m doing what I’m suppose to do with good morals and virtue but without the “belief” or “faith”?
dmad and zeb, you guys are the ones that need to read the Bible, ESPECIALLY the life of Christ. When you do you may realize that the things you say and the attitude you have is what Jesus condemned in the Pharisees of his time.
By the way the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus if you read the texts correctly is about Jesus condemning the Pharisees of the way they treated the common people, not about Hellfire teaching.
[quote]Nytebane wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I beleive that through Salvation and our love for Christ we will want to be like him. In that works are part of it, but those works are not what save us. Each person has a gift that God has bestowed upon us, but what is each persons gift? We are all apart of the body, so not everyone can do the same work. That brings us to the fruit of the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
I have a lot of work to do on the Patience, Gentleness, and Self-Control as we all saw from several of my posts. If we are not bearing fruit then we are a dead branch and must be pruned or cut off. I hope I am only pruned because that is discipline, and when God disciplines us that means he loves us, and then we will bear more fruit. Cut off means we will be cast into the fire, as shown in John 15:1-8.
[/quote]
I think we are on the same page here. Works can’t save us, but they are required. The ransom of Christ is what saves us, and is available to all that truly want it.
Have I interpreted you correctly?[/quote]
Works are not required for or to keep salvation. Once we follow Jesus we will want to turn from our wicked ways, repent, and want to do good works. Wanting to do works and being forced to do good works are two separate things in my opinion. This is what Grace is for. We are sinful, and no matter how much work we do we are going to sin. God delights in us, and wants us to walk with him, as Adam and Eve did in the garden. God does not want robots. If he did he would not have given us free will. I have three young children. I love every time they see me and go crazy wanting to have a hug from me. I love it when they want to sit in my lap and talk. This is what God wants from us. God is God and he does not need us, but he wants us. He gives us the free gift of eternal life through his Grace and the ransom paid by his son Jesus Christ. God is very approachable, and speaks to us through his Holy Spirit, the Word, His Son, and the Church.[/quote]
What if I don’t follow jesus?? I have a son that I love to death and I love that he wants to give me a hug as well. I try my best to be the best that I can for my child and lead him on the right path. What if I’m doing what I’m suppose to do with good morals and virtue but without the “belief” or “faith”? [/quote]
I am not going to answer your question directly, because I have already gotten an earful for a post I put about 5-6 pages ago, and I would like to say I have learned my leason.
God wants everyone to go to heaven. I want everyone to go to heaven, not like you really care what I think. God has made the way to him. If you would only receive it. I beleive the only way is through Jesus Christ. If I am wrong then so be it. I have studied a lot of religions maybe not in depth as others may like, but I think I have found the only way to heaven. I see myself as sinful, and I like to think that there is God who loves me inspite of my flaws. That even in my sin he sent his son to die for me to bring me back to him. The big part is that Jesus was raised from the dead. With out this part his sacrifice would have been for nothing. Jesus has the power over death, and through him we have eternal life.
It is obvious that you are at least thinking about what happens after death. It is amazing what children will do to a grown man. Our hearts get a little softer. I would encourage you to read the Bible, a daunting task, and if you would like some direction where to start we all would be willing to direct you, but it is your decision. If you have questions there are several people on here, including me, that are willing to help you out.
[quote]BULLD0G700 wrote:
dmad and zeb, you guys are the ones that need to read the Bible, ESPECIALLY the life of Christ. When you do you may realize that the things you say and the attitude you have is what Jesus condemned in the Pharisees of his time.
By the way the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus if you read the texts correctly is about Jesus condemning the Pharisees of the way they treated the common people, not about Hellfire teaching.[/quote]
Nytebane, you are not a troll as you stated above. The quote above is an example of a Troll. Nytebane, you have legitimate questions and we all are willing to listen.
Bulldog, if you do not have anything constructive to say please stop. I have been forgiven by Honest for my outburst earlier, so get over it. To compare me to a Pharasee is far fecheted at best. Pharasees denied who Jesus was, and tried to control the masses. I am just trying to talk about what Jesus has done for me. I am sinner and I need forgiveness.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Nytebane wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I beleive that through Salvation and our love for Christ we will want to be like him. In that works are part of it, but those works are not what save us. Each person has a gift that God has bestowed upon us, but what is each persons gift? We are all apart of the body, so not everyone can do the same work. That brings us to the fruit of the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
I have a lot of work to do on the Patience, Gentleness, and Self-Control as we all saw from several of my posts. If we are not bearing fruit then we are a dead branch and must be pruned or cut off. I hope I am only pruned because that is discipline, and when God disciplines us that means he loves us, and then we will bear more fruit. Cut off means we will be cast into the fire, as shown in John 15:1-8.
[/quote]
I think we are on the same page here. Works can’t save us, but they are required. The ransom of Christ is what saves us, and is available to all that truly want it.
Have I interpreted you correctly?[/quote]
Works are not required for or to keep salvation. Once we follow Jesus we will want to turn from our wicked ways, repent, and want to do good works. Wanting to do works and being forced to do good works are two separate things in my opinion. This is what Grace is for. We are sinful, and no matter how much work we do we are going to sin. God delights in us, and wants us to walk with him, as Adam and Eve did in the garden. God does not want robots. If he did he would not have given us free will. I have three young children. I love every time they see me and go crazy wanting to have a hug from me. I love it when they want to sit in my lap and talk. This is what God wants from us. God is God and he does not need us, but he wants us. He gives us the free gift of eternal life through his Grace and the ransom paid by his son Jesus Christ. God is very approachable, and speaks to us through his Holy Spirit, the Word, His Son, and the Church.[/quote]
What if I don’t follow jesus?? I have a son that I love to death and I love that he wants to give me a hug as well. I try my best to be the best that I can for my child and lead him on the right path. What if I’m doing what I’m suppose to do with good morals and virtue but without the “belief” or “faith”? [/quote]
I am not going to answer your question directly, because I have already gotten an earful for a post I put about 5-6 pages ago, and I would like to say I have learned my leason.
God wants everyone to go to heaven. I want everyone to go to heaven, not like you really care what I think. God has made the way to him. If you would only receive it. I beleive the only way is through Jesus Christ. If I am wrong then so be it. I have studied a lot of religions maybe not in depth as others may like, but I think I have found the only way to heaven. I see myself as sinful, and I like to think that there is God who loves me inspite of my flaws. That even in my sin he sent his son to die for me to bring me back to him. The big part is that Jesus was raised from the dead. With out this part his sacrifice would have been for nothing. Jesus has the power over death, and through him we have eternal life.
It is obvious that you are at least thinking about what happens after death. It is amazing what children will do to a grown man. Our hearts get a little softer. I would encourage you to read the Bible, a daunting task, and if you would like some direction where to start we all would be willing to direct you, but it is your decision. If you have questions there are several people on here, including me, that are willing to help you out.[/quote]
OH no I didn’t mean anything by it good friend… I believe you are very intelligent and I believe that your faith and beliefs leads you on the right path. Now I don’t know you from a can of paint but from the posts alone to me I believe that you are a great man and as I said in previous posts that you shouldn’t have gotten that earful of rebuttle because I believe that you and the people you are/were debating with are all right. I just think that the true point is missed, that we are all striving for the same thing. I thank you for your offer of help and it is a blessing what children can do to you. If you do have any suggestions of good scripture from the bible I’m all ears. I was not braught up with religion at all, but I know of it. I was braught up with good morals and virtues and I definitely believe in a higher power (god) but I believe as a human I don’t know whats out there. I think we get caught up with prophecy and heresy that we often miss the point. But again I thank you for your intelligent reply and am open to anything you have to offer. We should all have open minds!
[quote]Nytebane wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Nytebane wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I beleive that through Salvation and our love for Christ we will want to be like him. In that works are part of it, but those works are not what save us. Each person has a gift that God has bestowed upon us, but what is each persons gift? We are all apart of the body, so not everyone can do the same work. That brings us to the fruit of the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
I have a lot of work to do on the Patience, Gentleness, and Self-Control as we all saw from several of my posts. If we are not bearing fruit then we are a dead branch and must be pruned or cut off. I hope I am only pruned because that is discipline, and when God disciplines us that means he loves us, and then we will bear more fruit. Cut off means we will be cast into the fire, as shown in John 15:1-8.
[/quote]
I think we are on the same page here. Works can’t save us, but they are required. The ransom of Christ is what saves us, and is available to all that truly want it.
Have I interpreted you correctly?[/quote]
Works are not required for or to keep salvation. Once we follow Jesus we will want to turn from our wicked ways, repent, and want to do good works. Wanting to do works and being forced to do good works are two separate things in my opinion. This is what Grace is for. We are sinful, and no matter how much work we do we are going to sin. God delights in us, and wants us to walk with him, as Adam and Eve did in the garden. God does not want robots. If he did he would not have given us free will. I have three young children. I love every time they see me and go crazy wanting to have a hug from me. I love it when they want to sit in my lap and talk. This is what God wants from us. God is God and he does not need us, but he wants us. He gives us the free gift of eternal life through his Grace and the ransom paid by his son Jesus Christ. God is very approachable, and speaks to us through his Holy Spirit, the Word, His Son, and the Church.[/quote]
What if I don’t follow jesus?? I have a son that I love to death and I love that he wants to give me a hug as well. I try my best to be the best that I can for my child and lead him on the right path. What if I’m doing what I’m suppose to do with good morals and virtue but without the “belief” or “faith”? [/quote]
I am not going to answer your question directly, because I have already gotten an earful for a post I put about 5-6 pages ago, and I would like to say I have learned my leason.
God wants everyone to go to heaven. I want everyone to go to heaven, not like you really care what I think. God has made the way to him. If you would only receive it. I beleive the only way is through Jesus Christ. If I am wrong then so be it. I have studied a lot of religions maybe not in depth as others may like, but I think I have found the only way to heaven. I see myself as sinful, and I like to think that there is God who loves me inspite of my flaws. That even in my sin he sent his son to die for me to bring me back to him. The big part is that Jesus was raised from the dead. With out this part his sacrifice would have been for nothing. Jesus has the power over death, and through him we have eternal life.
It is obvious that you are at least thinking about what happens after death. It is amazing what children will do to a grown man. Our hearts get a little softer. I would encourage you to read the Bible, a daunting task, and if you would like some direction where to start we all would be willing to direct you, but it is your decision. If you have questions there are several people on here, including me, that are willing to help you out.[/quote]
OH no I didn’t mean anything by it good friend… I believe you are very intelligent and I believe that your faith and beliefs leads you on the right path. Now I don’t know you from a can of paint but from the posts alone to me I believe that you are a great man and as I said in previous posts that you shouldn’t have gotten that earful of rebuttle because I believe that you and the people you are/were debating with are all right. I just think that the true point is missed, that we are all striving for the same thing. I thank you for your offer of help and it is a blessing what children can do to you. If you do have any suggestions of good scripture from the bible I’m all ears. I was not braught up with religion at all, but I know of it. I was braught up with good morals and virtues and I definitely believe in a higher power (god) but I believe as a human I don’t know whats out there. I think we get caught up with prophecy and heresy that we often miss the point. But again I thank you for your intelligent reply and am open to anything you have to offer. We should all have open minds![/quote]
Thank you for your kind words friend. There are many others on this tread that are much more intellegent than me. I will even say Honest_Lifter is much more intellegent than me. I only come from personal experience and am not very scholarly. I agree that we all should have open minds about different things. The only thing that is hard for me to open my mind to is my Faith. My faith is in what the Bible teaches, and it is really black and white about certain topics, one is how you get to heaven. If what is said about the Bible does not jive with the Bible I have some serious issues with that, and I do apologize for that.
I am a believer in starting with Matthew in the New Testament. Matthew has 28 chapters so reading one a day is pretty easy to accomplish. Others will say another book, but if you want to know who Jesus is the first four books, Gospels, of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are the best place to start. The Old Testament has some very good stuff, but can be a little difficult to get through all the names and countries. The books after the Gospels get more into the Church after Christ and the Dogma or beliefs of the Church. I believe that Catholics and Protestants are close to what Jesus was teaching. We have our differences but our core beliefs are the same as stated in the Apostles or Nicean Creed.
The Bible also speaks of people living on earth. There are some that are going to heaven, but the majority, or a ‘great crowd’ will be right here on earth. - Revelation 7:9
Psalms 37:10,11
And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.
But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
Psalms 37:29
The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.
May I ask what you mean by “doing what I’m suppose to do”?
dmaddox, I have noticed a change in mentality in the last page or so, and I wanted to let you know. You seem to have a calm, less forceful disposition.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
dmaddox, I have noticed a change in mentality in the last page or so, and I wanted to let you know. You seem to have a calm, less forceful disposition. [/quote]
Thank you for noticing. I was really convicted by the Holy Spirit for my outburst. You forgiving me was a kind jesture, and I am thankful. I am trying to follow the Holy Spirit’s lead in all that I do. I still have a lot to work on, but I am glad that God is just pruning me.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
May I ask what you mean by “doing what I’m suppose to do”?[/quote]
Pretty much live life in good nature… I mean what else is there to say about it. I take care of my family, make an honest living, and live a life full of love and try to be free of sin… I mean we all sin and have our faults… But I believe its imperative that we know whats wrong from right, religion and beliefs aside. We were all born with a conscious and instinct… I do feel sorry for those that have been raised without one or brainwashed.
We all have an idea of whats important in life… some find it in personal gain… some with raising a family… Whatever it is that you think is important to your cause is going out and doing it and being the best person you can be is what I believe that we’re suppose to do. We all have goals in life… I hope that is clear enough for you?
dmaddox thank you for the insight, I copied and pasted your suggestion and saved it. Will definitely read on when I get the time! =)
[quote]Nytebane wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
May I ask what you mean by “doing what I’m suppose to do”?[/quote]
Pretty much live life in good nature… I mean what else is there to say about it. I take care of my family, make an honest living, and live a life full of love and try to be free of sin… I mean we all sin and have our faults… But I believe its imperative that we know whats wrong from right, religion and beliefs aside. We were all born with a conscious and instinct… I do feel sorry for those that have been raised without one or brainwashed.
We all have an idea of whats important in life… some find it in personal gain… some with raising a family… Whatever it is that you think is important to your cause is going out and doing it and being the best person you can be is what I believe that we’re suppose to do. We all have goals in life… I hope that is clear enough for you? [/quote]
Yes, thank you for sharing. I was just curious what you meant by it. For me, with my religious background and my knowledge of what the Bible says, I try the same thing. However, I know that you don’t have a strong religious background, so I was curious as to your motivation, that is all.
Gotcha bud… Thank you as well for sharing your religious insight. It also motivates me to see that people like you are motivated by a just cause. I like to see people motivated by religion in positive ways. Its a shame that religion is such a touchy subject and can’t be discussed intelligently and civilized. As I’ve said before, this probably could not take place here where I live in philadelphia. This is a city of extreme diversity when it comes to religion, sexual background, political views, race and culture. You guys would probably have more than what you would bargain for if this debate took place here lol it’s like the devil’s playground. I also live in an urban area. You name it… we got it lol.
I have come across a couple additional scriptures that may be interesting to some:
1 Cor 11:3
But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.
John 5:30
I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgement that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 5:26
For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.
John 5:37
Also, the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time or seen his figure.