The Church or The Bible

[dmaddox]

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Jehovah, Yahweh, YHWH. That is God’s name. God is a title. It denotes power. Satan is even described as a god. - 2 Cor 4:1-6; 1 John 5:19

Yes, we feel the Bible speaks of works being required of us to get this undeserved gift of everlasting life. The Bible speaks of some going to heaven, but most staying on earth.[/quote]

So what is the point of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross for if works are what get us to heaven?

If any of my questions are gray I am more than happy to elaborate, but my questions are based on your answers. There is no motive behind these. I really want to know what you guys think.[/quote]

now, i know it bothers you when i do this, but i need to set baseline. In the Hebrew scriptures, what was the purpose of the sacrifices?[/quote]

To tempararily cover or wash away sin. That is why they had to do it all the time. God hates sin, so the blood sacrifices used were to cover the sin so humans could be righteous in Gods eyes and commune with him. Needless to say the next time you sinned, which as humans we do very frequently, you would be separated from God, and the previous sacrifice was not good enough.

Other Catholics and Protestants are more eloquent than I so if I am really butchering this all up please correct me.[/quote]

Now, just a quick follow up question. could you do ANYTHING bad and then give a sacrifice and expect forgiveness? (still referring to the Hebrew Scriptures)[/quote]

Referring to the Old Testament or Hebrew Scriptures, you had to give a sacrifice to obtain forgiveness.

[honest_lifter]

Now were there times when the sacrifices were not accepted by Jehovah?

[dmaddox]

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Now were there times when the sacrifices were not accepted by Jehovah?[/quote]

I have answered a couple of your questions. Now is your turn. Your baseline is starting to not be a base line, because the sacrifice of Jesus was perfect, and if you are implying that God did not accept that sacrifice then we really have an issue.

[honest_lifter]

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Now were there times when the sacrifices were not accepted by Jehovah?[/quote]

I have answered a couple of your questions. Now is your turn. Your baseline is starting to not be a base line, because the sacrifice of Jesus was perfect, and if you are implying that God did not accept that sacrifice then we really have an issue.[/quote]

Ok, that is fair.

What I was getting at is that there were sacrifices that were not accepted by Jehovah, because the people were not following His commandments. It wasn’t that they chose the wrong animals or didn’t followed the right protocol for the sacrifice, it was just that they weren’t doing what was required of them. Do you have issues with that statementt?

(ps. Jesus sacrifice was accepted by Jehovah)

[dmaddox]

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Now were there times when the sacrifices were not accepted by Jehovah?[/quote]

I have answered a couple of your questions. Now is your turn. Your baseline is starting to not be a base line, because the sacrifice of Jesus was perfect, and if you are implying that God did not accept that sacrifice then we really have an issue.[/quote]

Ok, that is fair.

What I was getting at is that there were sacrifices that were not accepted by Jehovah, because the people were not following His commandments. It wasn’t that they chose the wrong animals or didn’t followed the right protocol for the sacrifice, it was just that they weren’t doing what was required of them. Do you have issues with that statementt?

(ps. Jesus sacrifice was accepted by Jehovah)[/quote]

You still have not answered my original question before your line of questioning. So then what did Jesus’ sacrifice do, and what was the point of his sacrifice?

[honest_lifter]

Matthew 20:28. Jesus gave his life as a ransom for us. A sacrifice once for all time. - Romans 6:10. Because of that sacrifice we have the gift of everlasting life available to us. - Rom 6:23

[dmaddox]

I am done Honest. You love going in circles. We will see in the future which one of us is correct. I will continue to pray that your eyes will be opened to the truth before it is too late.

[honest_lifter]

How am I going in circles? I answered your questions. Bottom line: Jesus was our sacrifice, so we don’t have to keep offering sacrifices. However, just like in the Hebrew Scriptures, where some sacrifices weren’t accepted because the people were not following the requirements, the same holds true for us today. We must meet the requirements for the sacrifice to be accepted on our behalf. In neither case was the sacrifice itself the problem.

That was the foundation that I was trying to build.

[honest_lifter]

Dmaddox, you feel that you don’t have to do works to be saved? Just believe in Jesus and his sacrifice?

[blacksheep]

Stated,

“…How do you get saved…”

“…the reward for doing the works required of us is either everlasting life on earth, or in heaven…”

Here are several translations of Ephesians 2:8-9, beginning with the the JW’s New World Translation:

(NWT) “By this undeserved kindness, indeed, YOU have been saved through faith; and this not owing to YOU, it is God’s gift. No, it is not owing to works, in order that no man should have ground for boasting.”

(KJV) “For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

(NIV) “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-not by works, so that no one can boast”

(NASB) “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not sa a results of works, that no one should boast”

(Gk. N.T.) “By the for grace you are having been saved through the faith; and this not of yourselves; God’s the gift: not of works, that not anyone might boast”

One cannot be saved by works, good deeds of love, or trying to keep God’s commandments. One must be saved by the grace of God. The reasons for this are the following:

(1) All the unsaved are spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1), under the dominion of Satan (Eph. 2:2), enslaved to sin, and under the condemnation of God (Eph. 2:3).

(2) In order to be saved one must receive God’s provision of salvation (Eph. 2:4-5), be forgiven of sin (Rom. 4:7-8), be made spiritually alive, be delivered from the power of Satan and sin (Col. 1:13), be made a new creature (II Cor. 5:17), and receive the Holy Spirit (John 7:37-39). No amount of self-effort can accomplish the above.

(3) What brings salvation is God’s grace through faith (Eph. 2:5,8). God’s gift of grace includes the following: (a) First comes the call to repentance and faith (Acts 2:38). With this call comes the work of the Holy Spirit within a person, giving him the power and ability to respond to God. (b) Those who respond in faith and repentance and accept Christ as Lord and savior receive additional grace to be regenerated or born again by the Spirit and to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18). (c) Those who are made new creatures in Christ receive continuing grace to live the Christian life, resist sin, and serve God (Rom. 8:13-14). The believer strives to live to God by the grace of God which works within him (I Cor. 15:10). God’s grace operates within the committed believer both to will and to work for God’s good pleasure (Phil2:12-13). From beginning to end, salvation is by grace of God.

Believers need to accept what God has provided them in Christ Jesus. We see an amplification of the statement in Ephesians 2:5, “by grace ye are saved.” In the original language this verse (Eph. 2:8), begins with the definite article “the” before “grace” (te…chariti). Also, the verse begins in the Greek with a posrpositive “for” (gar) which could be translated “because.” Grace is the “cause” for the total plan of God. On the one hand, faith is the subjective medium for the process of salvation, so it is a necessary condition. “It is the gift of God” refers to the whole process of salvation, not just to the granting of faith to believe.

Salvation cannot be earned in any way. There is no possibility of self-achieved salvation.

[Nytebane]

Ahhhh… good ol’ religion discussions…

I personally have no faith as far as religion goes… I do however believe in a higher power. Scripture to me is just history writings and teachings… I don’t understand the debate… Just live a good life and try your best to be a great person… If believing your religion will help you be a better person then go for it… As long as you know that you’re leading a good life I believe there will be reward in the afterlife… if there even is an afterlife, but at least you’ll know you’ve led a good life… If you get the chance to see your end coming, you can ask yourself “Did I lead a good life?” Hopefully you’ll know the answer=).

As far as religion goes I don’t believe you necessarily NEED religion to guide you… heck, sometimes religion can misguide you as history has shown… How much blood has been spilled in the name of religion?? Now, I’m not saying religion is bad… Most if not all religions teaches discipline, virtue, and morals… It’s up to the person to take it for what it is and learn the values from it… But I see many a time that people use religion for all the wrong reasons. Sorry if I offended anyone, I didn’t intend on it, just my own opinion and views.

“GOD” bless you all.

[honest_lifter]

It was an UNDESERVED gift. You forgot that word when you quoted me. Without Jesus ransom, no amount of works would be enough. However, just having faith isn’t enough.

James 2:18-26

Nevertheless, a certain one will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.” You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith apart from works is inactive? Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? You behold that [his] faith worked along with his works and by [his] works [his] faith was perfected, and the scripture was fulfilled which says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called “Jehovah’s friend.”
YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone. In the same manner was not also Rahab the harlot declared righteous by works, after she had received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

[Nytebane]

That couldn’t be any more perfect “I shall show you my faith by my works.” That pretty much sums everything up in a nutshell=) however… arguing over whats right and wrong is not the way. Alot often miss the point debating over who is more devout in their faiths. Take a look at the religious zealots over in the middle east.

History has shown and proven that man is flawed… We are definitely not perfect… Given that, there is no reason to be overly zealous because we will never achieve perfection no matter how hard we try. I think we take religion too far sometimes… which can be a good thing or a bad thing… I don’t know… I’m just ranting… ignore me LOL haven’t had good sleep in a while and trolling the forums is not helping=) have a good day all.

[pat]

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Jehovah, Yahweh, YHWH. That is God’s name. God is a title. It denotes power. Satan is even described as a god. - 2 Cor 4:1-6; 1 John 5:19

Yes, we feel the Bible speaks of works being required of us to get this undeserved gift of everlasting life. The Bible speaks of some going to heaven, but most staying on earth.[/quote]

So what is the point of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross for if works are what get us to heaven?

If any of my questions are gray I am more than happy to elaborate, but my questions are based on your answers. There is no motive behind these. I really want to know what you guys think.[/quote]

now, i know it bothers you when i do this, but i need to set baseline. In the Hebrew scriptures, what was the purpose of the sacrifices?[/quote]

To tempararily cover or wash away sin. That is why they had to do it all the time. God hates sin, so the blood sacrifices used were to cover the sin so humans could be righteous in Gods eyes and commune with him. Needless to say the next time you sinned, which as humans we do very frequently, you would be separated from God, and the previous sacrifice was not good enough.

Other Catholics and Protestants are more eloquent than I so if I am really butchering this all up please correct me.[/quote]

Now, just a quick follow up question. could you do ANYTHING bad and then give a sacrifice and expect forgiveness? (still referring to the Hebrew Scriptures)[/quote]

Not if you did the bad thing with that in mind…“Hmmm, I go an nail my neighbors wife, then go slaughter a goat and it’s all good.” That won’t wash, but I am sure some of them thought that way.

[pat]

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Dmaddox, you feel that you don’t have to do works to be saved? Just believe in Jesus and his sacrifice?[/quote]

You need both, you can’t be a dick and just have faith that Jesus will save you because you have faith. They go hand in hand…That doesn’t mean you have to do something lofty, it means that you give a little or a lot, but something more than faith alone is required. Martin Luther removed he books that he thought trumped his faith alone theory. But if you have faith, you’ll do good things. They go hand in hand.

[pat]

[quote]Nytebane wrote:
Ahhhh… good ol’ religion discussions…

I personally have no faith as far as religion goes… I do however believe in a higher power. Scripture to me is just history writings and teachings… I don’t understand the debate… Just live a good life and try your best to be a great person… If believing your religion will help you be a better person then go for it… As long as you know that you’re leading a good life I believe there will be reward in the afterlife… if there even is an afterlife, but at least you’ll know you’ve led a good life… If you get the chance to see your end coming, you can ask yourself “Did I lead a good life?” Hopefully you’ll know the answer=).

As far as religion goes I don’t believe you necessarily NEED religion to guide you… heck, sometimes religion can misguide you as history has shown… How much blood has been spilled in the name of religion?? Now, I’m not saying religion is bad… Most if not all religions teaches discipline, virtue, and morals… It’s up to the person to take it for what it is and learn the values from it… But I see many a time that people use religion for all the wrong reasons. Sorry if I offended anyone, I didn’t intend on it, just my own opinion and views.

“GOD” bless you all.[/quote]

The debates are healthy. They are a tool to learn about each other and about ourselves. Why do we believe what we believe and is it right.

Religion is a tool to get to know God better and to communicate with him. If you can do that with out the assistance of religion, then more power to you. I don’t feel compelled by my faith. I actually like it. Though it’s far from perfect, but so am I. A perfect religion is for perfect people.
Humans are in charge of the churches, we’re bound to fuck it up from time to time.

[pat]

[quote]Nytebane wrote:
That couldn’t be any more perfect “I shall show you my faith by my works.” That pretty much sums everything up in a nutshell=) however… arguing over whats right and wrong is not the way. Alot often miss the point debating over who is more devout in their faiths. Take a look at the religious zealots over in the middle east.

History has shown and proven that man is flawed… We are definitely not perfect… Given that, there is no reason to be overly zealous because we will never achieve perfection no matter how hard we try. I think we take religion too far sometimes… which can be a good thing or a bad thing… I don’t know… I’m just ranting… ignore me LOL haven’t had good sleep in a while and trolling the forums is not helping=) have a good day all.

[/quote]

I think having a civil discourse about rights and wrongs of beliefs is a good thing. Different religions believe different things. Quite frankly some of them are wrong, that goes for me too. I believe core dogma is correct but some of the other tenants may not be, it’s worth discussing. The key is ‘civil discourse’. Having a long dick contest with your religious beliefs is counter productive.

[blacksheep]

Stated,

“…faith without works is dead.”

True, Scripture reminds us that work indeed is involved in the total process, that is, God’s work. We are the result of that work “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (Eph. 2:10). The total passage has come “full circle.” Ephesians 2:2 reminds us that those in a lost state “walked” (periepatesate) a certain way. The last word in the above verse in the Greek language is the word “walk” (peripatesomen) again. Only here the walking as believers is as His “workmanship,” as “work of art,” His “masterpiece,” so they may “walk about” in good works. In fact, believers were “created in Christ Jesus” for that very purpose. Good works do not bring salvation to a person; they are the result of salvation.

[honest_lifter]

blacksheep:

Are works, in your eyes, needed or not? I know they alone don’t bring salvation, but are they needed at all?

[dmaddox]

I beleive that through Salvation and our love for Christ we will want to be like him. In that works are part of it, but those works are not what save us. Each person has a gift that God has bestowed upon us, but what is each persons gift? We are all apart of the body, so not everyone can do the same work. That brings us to the fruit of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

I have a lot of work to do on the Patience, Gentleness, and Self-Control as we all saw from several of my posts. If we are not bearing fruit then we are a dead branch and must be pruned or cut off. I hope I am only pruned because that is discipline, and when God disciplines us that means he loves us, and then we will bear more fruit. Cut off means we will be cast into the fire, as shown in John 15:1-8.