The Church or The Bible

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
423

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The difference in our reasoning is you feel that scripture has 1 fulfillment, and I feel it has a second fulfillment.

I gave scriptural information that doesn’t satisfy you. [/quote]
No the difference is Jesus said the Roman empire, and you want to twist it to mean the entire world. Since that doesn’t fit your view you will twist it. Just like you are still trying to do.

[/quote]

Who am I twisting it for? You? The commission that Christians have been given has nothing to do with having to convince people. Our love for God, Christ, and love for neighbor is our motivating force for doing what we do. We do this completely volunteer. No one in our entire organization, including our “leaders” (I quote it because Christ is really the head of the congregation) get paid one cent of a salary.

We are told to make disciples of people of all the nations. not ALL the people of all the nations. Our command was to make the truth known, not force it upon those that don’t want it.

The Bible speak of a narrow and cramped road leading off into life, and the wide and spacious road leading off into destruction. The narrow road is going to have less people and is going to be harder to follow. - Matthew 7:13,14. We are forewarned most wont be interested in it.

I, however, still wanted to provide information in a manner that those truly interested will not be left in the dark. [/quote]

typical. You gave an isagettical interpretation of that verse which is not in line with its actual meaning. When confronted with it you broaden the scope to include other things which have nothing to do with the conversation.
all you had to do it just admit that verse has nothing to do with your point. Which it didn’t because it was referring to the gospel spreading through out the Roman empire. Which no longer exists. Rather than admit you did that you have done nothing but go out of your way to try and make a point all the way committing logicl fallacies. It isn’t that no one will debate you on these subjects it is that you refuse to stay with in the scope of the conversation. [/quote]

The conclusion of the system of things is on topic, but you said you didn’t wish to discuss it with me. I shared Matt 28:20 with you, because you said before that you didn’t have a disagreement with that, but that also wasn’t good enough. Topics can include more than one scripture, and in fact, a lot of times, require more than one scripture. If someone is going to be involved in a discussion, sometimes a baseline is a requirement, but many are too anxious to prove their point that they don’t want to wait/allow for that. Instead they call foul.

I have asked MANY questions in “The Church or The Bible” without even a HINT of a response. [/quote]

I think you have a reading comprehension problem that goes along with your constant need to commit logical fallacies.

I have no problem with the claim of a great commission as cited in Matt 28:19 (I could care less if you include 20 or exclude it).

If you want a base line then here you go Matt 24:14 should read like this

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole Roman Empire as a testimony to all nations, and then the end shall come.

I am calling foul on that verse because world in that instance does not and can never mean world in the way you want it to. If it were to refer to world which is used later on in Matt 24 it would us Kosmos from the greek.

We don’t have to include other verses in our conversation because the verse when brought back to the greek is very specific. All that I have asked you to do is say you used that verse incorrectly. Shoot I even gave you matt 24:19 to bolster your original point. I agree with your claim of the great commission, but I am 100% against your use of Matt 24:14 to justify it.

To continue to claim that a verse which specicically states Roman empire should accompany verses which use the term Kosmos or aion when there is no justification for it only weakens your credibility.

424

[quote]haney1 wrote:

I think you have a reading comprehension problem that goes along with your constant need to commit logical fallacies.

I have no problem with the claim of a great commission as cited in Matt 28:19 (I could care less if you include 20 or exclude it).

If you want a base line then here you go Matt 24:14 should read like this

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole Roman Empire as a testimony to all nations, and then the end shall come.

I am calling foul on that verse because world in that instance does not and can never mean world in the way you want it to. If it were to refer to world which is used later on in Matt 24 it would us Kosmos from the greek.

We don’t have to include other verses in our conversation because the verse when brought back to the greek is very specific. All that I have asked you to do is say you used that verse incorrectly. Shoot I even gave you matt 24:19 to bolster your original point. I agree with your claim of the great commission, but I am 100% against your use of Matt 24:14 to justify it.

To continue to claim that a verse which specicically states Roman empire should accompany verses which use the term Kosmos or aion when there is no justification for it only weakens your credibility.

[/quote]

I understand what you are saying. I am sorry if I have been confusing. I will research it more if for none other than my own knowledge. I know those scriptures in Revelation that I shared earlier have to have something to do with it. However, I need to establish my point better. I will respond fully when I understand/can express it completely.

425

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Michael the Archangel

The spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending God’s (Jehovah’s) rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name - “Who Is Like God?”

At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the Apostle Peter, as Simon. (Gen 49:1,2; Matt 10:2) Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth. Here is the scriptural reasons for drawing that conclusion.

  1. Archangel

God’s Word refers to Michael “the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.” Notice that Michael is call THE archangel. This suggests that theres is only one such angel. In fact, the term “archangel” occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thess 4:16 states: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel. This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael.

  1. Army Leader

The Bible states that “Michael and his angels battled with the dragon…and its angels.” (Rev 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Rev 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thess 1:7; Matt 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Matt 13:41) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven - one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus-it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.[/quote]

I believe this is really a stretch and this notion does not coincide with the Last Supper discourse in John, nor the Letters. All of the scriptures from John forward clearly proclaim Jesus as “One in being with the Father”.
What ever Michael the Archangel is, he ain’t Jesus.

426

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Michael the Archangel

The spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending God’s (Jehovah’s) rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name - “Who Is Like God?”

At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the Apostle Peter, as Simon. (Gen 49:1,2; Matt 10:2) Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth. Here is the scriptural reasons for drawing that conclusion.

  1. Archangel

God’s Word refers to Michael “the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.” Notice that Michael is call THE archangel. This suggests that theres is only one such angel. In fact, the term “archangel” occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thess 4:16 states: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel. This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael.

  1. Army Leader

The Bible states that “Michael and his angels battled with the dragon…and its angels.” (Rev 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Rev 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thess 1:7; Matt 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Matt 13:41) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven - one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus-it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.[/quote]

I believe this is really a stretch and this notion does not coincide with the Last Supper discourse in John, nor the Letters. All of the scriptures from John forward clearly proclaim Jesus as “One in being with the Father”.
What ever Michael the Archangel is, he ain’t Jesus.[/quote]

I think the hang up that a lot of people have with this is that if Jesus has to be God, so he can’t be Michael. Which, is understandable.

However, I see a lot of defense for Jesus being God, but what scriptures show the holy spirit as part of that to make up the trinity?

427

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Michael the Archangel

The spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending God’s (Jehovah’s) rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name - “Who Is Like God?”

At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the Apostle Peter, as Simon. (Gen 49:1,2; Matt 10:2) Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth. Here is the scriptural reasons for drawing that conclusion.

  1. Archangel

God’s Word refers to Michael “the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.” Notice that Michael is call THE archangel. This suggests that theres is only one such angel. In fact, the term “archangel” occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thess 4:16 states: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel. This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael.

  1. Army Leader

The Bible states that “Michael and his angels battled with the dragon…and its angels.” (Rev 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Rev 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thess 1:7; Matt 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Matt 13:41) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven - one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus-it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.[/quote]

I believe this is really a stretch and this notion does not coincide with the Last Supper discourse in John, nor the Letters. All of the scriptures from John forward clearly proclaim Jesus as “One in being with the Father”.
What ever Michael the Archangel is, he ain’t Jesus.[/quote]

I think the hang up that a lot of people have with this is that if Jesus has to be God, so he can’t be Michael. Which, is understandable.

However, I see a lot of defense for Jesus being God, but what scriptures show the holy spirit as part of that to make up the trinity?[/quote]

1 John 5:6-7
This is the one who came through water and blood, 2 Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is truth. So there are three that testify, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.

1 Peter 1:2
in the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification by the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ: may grace and peace be yours in abundance.

John 16:13-15
“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.”

Act 5:3-4
“But Peter said, â??Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God.â??”

428

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

1 John 5:6-7
This is the one who came through water and blood, 2 Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is truth. So there are three that testify, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.

1 Peter 1:2
in the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification by the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ: may grace and peace be yours in abundance.

John 16:13-15
“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.”

Act 5:3-4
“But Peter said, â??Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God.â??”[/quote]

1 John 5:6-8
This talks about the blood, spirit and water. Not God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 1:2
This mentions all three, but it doesn’t say anything about them being together.

John 16:13-15
Could you explain to me what this is trying to say?

Acts 5:3,4
What is this one saying about the Trinity?

429

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

1 John 5:6-7
This is the one who came through water and blood, 2 Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is truth. So there are three that testify, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.

1 Peter 1:2
in the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification by the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ: may grace and peace be yours in abundance.

John 16:13-15
“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.”

Act 5:3-4
“But Peter said, Ã?¢??Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God.Ã?¢??”[/quote]

1 John 5:6-8
This talks about the blood, spirit and water. Not God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 1:2
This mentions all three, but it doesn’t say anything about them being together.

John 16:13-15
Could you explain to me what this is trying to say?

Acts 5:3,4
What is this one saying about the Trinity?[/quote]

I think I still have some study notes on it from a while back I will see If I can find them. I know I have a full set on Jesus being God from a trinitarian point of view. Including a break down of some of the greek in Col 1.

430

Stated,

“…However, I see a lot of defense for Jesus being God, but what scriptures show the holy spirit as part of that to make up the trinity?”

Matthew 3:16-17 “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God desending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

The baptism of Jesus is a striking manifestation of the fact of the Trinity. (1) Jesus Christ, declared to be equal with God (John 10:30), is baptized in the jordan River.

(2) The Holy Spirit, who is also equal with the Father (Acts 5:3-4), desends upon Jesus in the form of a dove.

(3) The Father declares that He is well pleased with Jesus. Thus, we have three equal divine persons; it is contrary to the entire Scripture to explain this event consistently in any other manner. The trinitarian understanding of God teaches that these three divine Persons exist in such unity that they are one God

All three persons of the Trinity are involved in Jesus baptism. Here and elsewhere in Scripture God is revealed as one who share a common divine nature: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Jude 20-21). Thus God is singular (i.e., a unity) in one sense and plural (i.e., three) in another. (1) Scripture declares that God is one being-a perfect unity of one nature, substance, and essence (Deut. 6:4; Gal. 3:20). Of the persons in the Godhead none is God without the others and each with the others is God.

(2) The one God exists in a plurality of three identifiable, distinct, though not separate, persons. The three are not three gods or three parts or expressions of God, but are three persons so completely united that they form the one true and eternal God. Both the Son and the Holy Spirit possess attributes which can only be true of God (John 1:1,14). None of the three persons was ever made or created, but each exists equal in essential being, attributes, power, and glory.

(3) This one God existing in three persons made possible from all eternity reciprocal love, fellowship, the exercise of divine attributes, mutual comminion in knowledge, and interrelationship within the Godhead (I Cor. 2:10).

431

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

I think you have a reading comprehension problem that goes along with your constant need to commit logical fallacies.

I have no problem with the claim of a great commission as cited in Matt 28:19 (I could care less if you include 20 or exclude it).

If you want a base line then here you go Matt 24:14 should read like this

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole Roman Empire as a testimony to all nations, and then the end shall come.

I am calling foul on that verse because world in that instance does not and can never mean world in the way you want it to. If it were to refer to world which is used later on in Matt 24 it would us Kosmos from the greek.

We don’t have to include other verses in our conversation because the verse when brought back to the greek is very specific. All that I have asked you to do is say you used that verse incorrectly. Shoot I even gave you matt 24:19 to bolster your original point. I agree with your claim of the great commission, but I am 100% against your use of Matt 24:14 to justify it.

To continue to claim that a verse which specicically states Roman empire should accompany verses which use the term Kosmos or aion when there is no justification for it only weakens your credibility.

[/quote]

I understand what you are saying. I am sorry if I have been confusing. I will research it more if for none other than my own knowledge. I know those scriptures in Revelation that I shared earlier have to have something to do with it. However, I need to establish my point better. I will respond fully when I understand/can express it completely.[/quote]

Fair enough. For a good break down on eschatology this website has some great lectures on it.

http://www.thenarrowpath.com/
go to the topical lectures and the bottom right hand is
When Shall These Things Be?
(Also known as â??Eschatology seriesâ??)

That is the most even handed discussion of main stream Christian view of the topic.
(I say main stream b\c I know J\W’s have a different take on it, but I don’t know enough
about it to justify putting it in mainstream or out so forgive the term if offends you, it is just a way to establish the most common view). I was raised as a pre-millenialist with heavy baptist leanings. I am now an Amillenialist with heavy baptist leanings.

432

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

1 John 5:6-7
This is the one who came through water and blood, 2 Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is truth. So there are three that testify, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.

1 Peter 1:2
in the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification by the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ: may grace and peace be yours in abundance.

John 16:13-15
“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.”

Act 5:3-4
“But Peter said, Ã?¢??Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God.Ã?¢??”[/quote]

1 John 5:6-8
This talks about the blood, spirit and water. Not God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 1:2
This mentions all three, but it doesn’t say anything about them being together.

John 16:13-15
Could you explain to me what this is trying to say?

Acts 5:3,4
What is this one saying about the Trinity?[/quote]

See blacksheep’s notes. He does it better than I do.

433

[quote]haney1 wrote:

I think you have a reading comprehension problem that goes along with your constant need to commit logical fallacies.

I have no problem with the claim of a great commission as cited in Matt 28:19 (I could care less if you include 20 or exclude it).

If you want a base line then here you go Matt 24:14 should read like this

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole Roman Empire as a testimony to all nations, and then the end shall come.

I am calling foul on that verse because world in that instance does not and can never mean world in the way you want it to. If it were to refer to world which is used later on in Matt 24 it would us Kosmos from the greek.

We don’t have to include other verses in our conversation because the verse when brought back to the greek is very specific. All that I have asked you to do is say you used that verse incorrectly. Shoot I even gave you matt 24:19 to bolster your original point. I agree with your claim of the great commission, but I am 100% against your use of Matt 24:14 to justify it.

To continue to claim that a verse which specicically states Roman empire should accompany verses which use the term Kosmos or aion when there is no justification for it only weakens your credibility.

[/quote]

Matthew 24:3 starts off the prophecy with a question from his disciples. Two things are asked:

  1. What is the sign of your presence?

  2. Sign of the conclusion of the system of things.

So Jesus begins to show the things that must take place for people to know his presence and the conclusion of the system of things.

Here is the list of things that must happen:

  1. Wars and reports of wars
  2. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom
  3. Food Shortages in one place after another
  4. Earthquakes in one place after another
  5. People will delivered up for tribulation on account of Jesus name.
  6. Many false prophets must arrive and mislead many
  7. Love of the greater number must cool off
  8. Good news of the kingdom must be preached through all the inhabited earth. (at the time the roman empire)

Now, we know that in 70 C.E. there came to an end the Jewish system of things. This was the initial fulfillment. In the Bible there a different times that there were more than one fulfillment to a prophecy. I will explain this one now,though.

Matthew 24:15-22 describe the destruction that would take place. Vs. 21, “for then there will be a great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.”

Now this is the first, hiccup that we have with a singular fulfillment. Because the destruction that occurred of Jerusalem was not worse than what occurred in Noah’s day with the flood, nor was it worse than things that occurred in world wars since then.

Also, something that we need to look at is that there were 2 things that were asked. The conclusion of the system of things, AND the presence of Christ. We know that Christ hadn’t come by 70 C.E. because Revelation, which was written in 98 C.E. still talked about Christ’s coming

Therefore, there has to be a secondary fulfillment for that scripture. Now, the word that was used in Matthew 24:14 for “earth” was:

Now this does say that one use of the word is for the Roman empire, but that is not its only use.

So this is how we are able to use the scripture found at Matthew 24:14 to apply to the work that we do today.

434

[quote]
The baptism of Jesus is a striking manifestation of the fact of the Trinity. (1) Jesus Christ, declared to be equal with God (John 10:30), is baptized in the jordan River. [/quote]

I can’t see that scripture being used there to defend that thought. This did not mean that Jesus claimed to be the Father or to be God is evident. The oneness to which Jesus referred must be understood in harmony with the context of his statement. He was speaking of his works and his care of the “sheep” who would follow him. His works, as well as his words, demonstrated that there was unity, not disunity and disharmony, between him and his Father, a point his reply went on to emphasize. (Joh 10:25, 26, 37, 38; compare Joh 4:34; 5:30; 6:38-40; 8:16-18.) As regards his “sheep,” he and his Father were likewise at unity in their protecting such sheeplike ones and leading them to everlasting life. (Joh 10:27-29; compare Eze 34:23, 24.) Jesus’ prayer on behalf of the unity of all his disciples, including future ones, shows that the oneness, or union, between Jesus and his Father was not as to identity of person but as to purpose and action. In this way Jesus’ disciples could “all be one,” just as he and his Father are one.-Joh 17:20-23.

This statement is not true. Jesus had a beginning, was created.

John 3:16
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-BEGOTTEN son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

This shows this was the only created son of God. The rest of creation was done after him.

Col 1:15
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.”

Phil 2:5,6
“Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.”

Because Jesus was created, and the fact that he admitted to the fact that he wasn’t equal to his Father, they are not the same person. Throughout the entire Greek Scriptures, Jesus is referred to as God’s SON and God (Jehovah) is referred to as Jesus’ FATHER. This makes a clear distinction between the two. Plus, observe the third part of the trinity: The Holy Spirit. The use of that name, as it/he is always called, shows no relation to the other two.

Father and Son - demonstrates/eludes to a relationship.
The Holy Spirit - does not imply a familial relationship as the other two do.

435

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

I think you have a reading comprehension problem that goes along with your constant need to commit logical fallacies.

I have no problem with the claim of a great commission as cited in Matt 28:19 (I could care less if you include 20 or exclude it).

If you want a base line then here you go Matt 24:14 should read like this

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole Roman Empire as a testimony to all nations, and then the end shall come.

I am calling foul on that verse because world in that instance does not and can never mean world in the way you want it to. If it were to refer to world which is used later on in Matt 24 it would us Kosmos from the greek.

We don’t have to include other verses in our conversation because the verse when brought back to the greek is very specific. All that I have asked you to do is say you used that verse incorrectly. Shoot I even gave you matt 24:19 to bolster your original point. I agree with your claim of the great commission, but I am 100% against your use of Matt 24:14 to justify it.

To continue to claim that a verse which specicically states Roman empire should accompany verses which use the term Kosmos or aion when there is no justification for it only weakens your credibility.

[/quote]

Matthew 24:3 starts off the prophecy with a question from his disciples. Two things are asked:

  1. What is the sign of your presence?

  2. Sign of the conclusion of the system of things.

So Jesus begins to show the things that must take place for people to know his presence and the conclusion of the system of things.

Here is the list of things that must happen:

  1. Wars and reports of wars
  2. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom
  3. Food Shortages in one place after another
  4. Earthquakes in one place after another
  5. People will delivered up for tribulation on account of Jesus name.
  6. Many false prophets must arrive and mislead many
  7. Love of the greater number must cool off
  8. Good news of the kingdom must be preached through all the inhabited earth. (at the time the roman empire)

Now, we know that in 70 C.E. there came to an end the Jewish system of things. This was the initial fulfillment. In the Bible there a different times that there were more than one fulfillment to a prophecy. I will explain this one now,though.

Matthew 24:15-22 describe the destruction that would take place. Vs. 21, “for then there will be a great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.”

Now this is the first, hiccup that we have with a singular fulfillment. Because the destruction that occurred of Jerusalem was not worse than what occurred in Noah’s day with the flood, nor was it worse than things that occurred in world wars since then.

Also, something that we need to look at is that there were 2 things that were asked. The conclusion of the system of things, AND the presence of Christ. We know that Christ hadn’t come by 70 C.E. because Revelation, which was written in 98 C.E. still talked about Christ’s coming

Therefore, there has to be a secondary fulfillment for that scripture. Now, the word that was used in Matthew 24:14 for “earth” was:

Now this does say that one use of the word is for the Roman empire, but that is not its only use.

So this is how we are able to use the scripture found at Matthew 24:14 to apply to the work that we do today.
[/quote]

your interpretation I will leave alone, Just know that I find it lacking in many areas.

The majority of those definitions refered to a specific sect. of the World.
later on in matt 24:21 Jesus uses the term kosmos. Why in the same conversation would he use two very different greek words to descibe something that you claim means the same?

And honestly everytime I see that word in the NT I only allow it to mean Roman World, especially when in context the majority of those 15 times it is found it refers to the Roman World especially in the Gospels.

*Edit (I just don’t have the time to keep responding so this will be my last response in this thread. I wish you the best, but I do disagree with you on numerous issues that I think we don’t serve the same God nor can of differing views ever be reconciled).

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I never completed my study on the Holy Spirit part of the trinity. Here are the few verses I had collected. I am not looking to defend them, I am only providing the information. I am currently studying for a Certification for my current career so that is why I lack the motivation to do n in depth conversation.

1Pe 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

Mat 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mat 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Joe 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.

Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

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and here is a completed study on Christ as part of the trinity

The doctrine of the trinity

Father and Son are one but not the same

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1Jn 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

So there we have it the trinity backed up by scripture. Anyone have a problem with this or want to discuss it anymore? You see I have a problem with this proving the trinity, Especially 5:7. Anyone care to guess what my issue with 5:7 is? This is a late addition to the book. It was not found in any of the originals it is a forgery if you will. While this is the closest we get to the word trinity in the Bible, this sadly is not in the original Bible.
Therefore it is not usable.

To prove that Jesus and the Father are one we need to look further

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
Joh 1:9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Christ is the Word of God. The Bible is very specific that the Word of God (the logos in greek) is a distinct and viable entity that carries with it the very power of God.

Some will argue this is a mis-translation. So fair enough we will humor the point and allow it for now. They will also argue that Christ was no more than an Angel so to rebut that argument and to bolster the intial argument that Christ and the Father are one but not the same

Let us now cite the following

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell

Christ is the image of God. All things were created by him, all things are held together by Him. Not only that but the fullness of God dwells with in Him. That is incredible for an Angel to achieve all of that; However they will now argue that col 1:15 points to Christ being created. A created being canâ??t be God. The correct greek word is meant to imply preeminence. Which is demonstrated in the rest passage we just read.

To further destroy the argument that Christ was just an angel

Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 1:4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Heb 1:7 Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.”
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”
Heb 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

There is the theme again that the world was created thru Christ. In gen. it says the world was created b\c God spoke. IE the living word of God. Further illustrating these points are repeated indications that Christ is higher than the Angels. Now you could argue that this implies Christ is lower than God, but why would God let anyone else be worshipped but himself. Especially given the over whelming evidence that He is against that. Not to mention Angels refuse praise. So Jesus would like wise have to do the same.

It is with out a doubt 100% that Christ is seen as separate by God, but still God. To solidify that point Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."

This is to solidify your position on atleast half of the trinity and to not be shaken when someone points out that John 5:7 wasnâ??t in the existing mss. I will deal with Biblical inerrency at a later date.

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What is God’s Name?

What is his sons name?

What is the Holy Spirit’s name?

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[quote]haney1 wrote:

The majority of those definitions refered to a specific sect. of the World.
later on in matt 24:21 Jesus uses the term kosmos. Why in the same conversation would he use two very different greek words to descibe something that you claim means the same?

[/quote]

The world was created. so never since it was created, has something been seen like this. This is to emphasize that it isn’t just since the beginning of man, but since the beginning of everything until now. It will be the greatest things ever witnessed by human, angels, anyone.

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If they are the same person…

How can Jesus die? Jesus is God and the Bible says God is there from the beginning to the end.

How can Jesus pray that not his will but the will of the father take place? the wills should be the same. it is a meaningless prayer.

Why would Jesus pray in the first place? He is God.

How could God give Jesus an exaulted position. What right does God have that Jesus doesn’t already have?

Why would the model prayer given by Jesus say to Honor God’s name, and not his own?

Why didn’t the Holy Spirit get exaulted to another position?

Why shouldn’t his name have been honored in the model prayer?

The idea of the trinity is so foreign to the way the Bible is written. I shared an article that talked about the trinity and it mentioned the idea of the trinity didn’t get established until the 4 century C.E. Scripture is being used to try and prove something that didn’t come about until later, all the while in the arguments, Jesus is referred to as the Son and Jehovah as the Father.

I know this concept is wanted to be there by so many people, but it just isn’t.

Ps 83:18
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

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[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
What is God’s Name? Father

What is his sons name? Jesus

What is the Holy Spirit’s name?[/quote] Advocate, Holy Spirit.

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[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
What is God’s Name? Father

What is his sons name? Jesus

What is the Holy Spirit’s name?[/quote] Advocate, Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

God’s name is father?