The Church or The Bible

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
403

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The bottom line is we have been commissioned to preach to all the inhabited earth for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14. I will not stop this preaching work because, yet again, I have run into some barrier. This was a command by Jesus and because of my love for him and for God, I will continue it.

I wish you all the best.[/quote]

Since you are a fan of taking it back to the greek than I should point out the word world in matt 24:14 is a very specific greek word for the Roman Empire and not the entire globe.[/quote]

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3625.htm

Interesting to point out there was an initial fullfillment of this prophecy as stated in Col 1:23.

Revelation speaks of a greater fulfillment of this prophecy, chapter 24 of Matthew was talking in reference to Christ’s PRESENCE or parousias.

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3952.htm

[/quote]

  1. I don’t buy double fulfillment prophecies especially when the text in context doesn’t indicate it and matthew 24 Jesus used those words without any indication of a double fulfillment.

  2. I see a claim of what revelation says without an actual scripture to go with it. Just citing greek words by themself does not bolster ones agrument.[/quote]

  3. 70 C.E. and the destruction of Jerusalem was the first fulfillment.

  4. Revelation 12:7-12,17; 14:6,7; 9:5,6; 22:17[/quote]

  5. I think that is the only fulfillment of that chapter. So all you did was point out what I already think is the fulfillment of that chapter. There is no future fulfillment of that chapter. Christ was specifically referring to his vindication.

Although none of that is really the point to me posting. You said that JW’s are fulfilling that specific verse. That specific verse refers to only the known Roman world in the first century. So either you are a bunch of over achievers and going into a bigger scope of the world than Christ intended with that verse, or you are using that verse inappropriately.
You are also using col incorrectly. Paul is using hyperbole to illustrate a point unless you are claiming that they literal spoke the gospel to all creatures including animals.

I only brought it up b\c you were saying something that just doesn’t go with that verse.
Now you could use matt. 28:19 and I won’t complain, but you can’t use matt 24:14.

as for the 2nd point you didn’t make a specific enough claim with those verses for me to agree or disagree.
[/quote]

Another point to reason on, is the fact that everytime God has destroyed a group of people (be it the flood, ninevah, jersalem, even his attack on Pharoah of eqypt, he has provided a warning. He always wants to give people an opportunity to repent before he brings about destruction.

Matthew 28:19, another great scripture you brought up. To drive the point home, look at the following verse in verse 20. He says that he is with us “all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” That system of things is the same system of things mentioned in Mathew 24:3.

This helps us, when used with the scriptures in Revelation, to reason that there was an additional time period to be expected, because as we know Satan is not destroyed yet, nor was he destroyed in 70 C.E. That is still future.

Your point that Paul wasn’t talking about EVERY creature is correct. He wouldn’t even have know if he reached every PERSON. However, the “good news” had spread to such a degree that he evidently felt proper in saying that, is what can possibly be reasoned from that. [/quote]

There is no other point to look at. You used matt 24:14 incorrectly.

I am not interested in talking about end times with you. I am not interested in comparing
view points on the scripture. I have done that plenty of times with JW’s. What I am interested in is you trying to twist matt 24:14.
So just admit that when you brought it up it had zero to do with your point about JW’s preaching to the world. [/quote]

The difference in our reasoning is you feel that scripture has 1 fulfillment, and I feel it has a second fulfillment.

I gave scriptural information that doesn’t satisfy you. We receive information everyday that doesn’t satisfy us. I personally am satisfied with the information have a read/received on this particular topic, thus a reason why I share in this preaching work.

Incidently, here is some information on the Trinity for anyone interested. I didn’t post it the entire article, because some just aren’t interested in reading it:

http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/start.htm[/quote]

So you are saying that because it is hard to explain it must be false? Good call.

Isaiah 55:8-9 (New International Version)

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.

9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

404

[quote]BULLD0G700 wrote:
That article made alot of sense, I liked it went to the Bible also to other religious books. Nobody ever could explain the Trintiy to me clearly or even have the same belief in it. Good read[/quote]

Thank you, BULLDOG700. I thought some might appreciate it.

405

[quote]BULLD0G700 wrote:
That article made alot of sense, I liked it went to the Bible also to other religious books. Nobody ever could explain the Trintiy to me clearly or even have the same belief in it. Good read[/quote]

Amazing how you have logged on to T Nation for the first time sign up to post on the forums, find this thread and always agree with Honest. All of your posts are in this thread. Are you a troll, are you Honest’s best friend, or are you Honest?

406

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BULLD0G700 wrote:
That article made alot of sense, I liked it went to the Bible also to other religious books. Nobody ever could explain the Trintiy to me clearly or even have the same belief in it. Good read[/quote]

Amazing how you have logged on to T Nation for the first time sign up to post on the forums, find this thread and always agree with Honest. All of your posts are in this thread. Are you a troll, are you Honest’s best friend, or are you Honest?[/quote]

LOL. I noticed this too.

407

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BULLD0G700 wrote:
That article made alot of sense, I liked it went to the Bible also to other religious books. Nobody ever could explain the Trintiy to me clearly or even have the same belief in it. Good read[/quote]

Amazing how you have logged on to T Nation for the first time sign up to post on the forums, find this thread and always agree with Honest. All of your posts are in this thread. Are you a troll, are you Honest’s best friend, or are you Honest?[/quote]

I have no idea who it is, and no, it isn’t me.

408

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

I dont blame Honest because this is what he is taught. I blame the leaders of the church that keep shoveling out these lies, and then figuring they are lies, and then coming up with new lies.[/quote]

I’m not so sure, at some point these drone mouth pieces need to stand up to whomever programmed them and ask some serious questions.

409

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

I dont blame Honest because this is what he is taught. I blame the leaders of the church that keep shoveling out these lies, and then figuring they are lies, and then coming up with new lies.[/quote]

I’m not so sure, at some point these drone mouth pieces need to stand up to whomever programmed them and ask some serious questions.[/quote]

I encourage you to read the link, those are serious questions you seek.

410

I’ve been hear before a few years back, even kept a log on here. I’m a Strongman trainer former powerlifter. I do personal training and interested in Thibs new training ideas. I didn’t log in correctly so just started a new name though I don’t know why cause I’m Bulldog on the sites I’m on. Well known on the MMI site but that closed this month. The reason I’m on this thread is cause everytime someone writes on it, it goes to my Email.

So I’m hoping to change that so I don’t come back to this thread. I don’t usually discuss politics or religion and I am sorry to everyone for expressing myself. My main log is on Wanna Be Big if you want to see my training, and I might start posting a log on here. It’s interesting if you want to train Strongman way at anytime.

411

OK Zeb and Maddux this site a training site that you guys have called me out on. I look at both of your postings an not one of you guys have posted anything to do with lifting this whole year. Hypocrites.

412

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The difference in our reasoning is you feel that scripture has 1 fulfillment, and I feel it has a second fulfillment.

I gave scriptural information that doesn’t satisfy you. [/quote]
No the difference is Jesus said the Roman empire, and you want to twist it to mean the entire world. Since that doesn’t fit your view you will twist it. Just like you are still trying to do.

413

[quote]BULLD0G700 wrote:
That article made alot of sense, I liked it went to the Bible also to other religious books. Nobody ever could explain the Trintiy to me clearly or even have the same belief in it. Good read[/quote]

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity Second section.

414

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The difference in our reasoning is you feel that scripture has 1 fulfillment, and I feel it has a second fulfillment.

I gave scriptural information that doesn’t satisfy you. [/quote]
No the difference is Jesus said the Roman empire, and you want to twist it to mean the entire world. Since that doesn’t fit your view you will twist it. Just like you are still trying to do.

[/quote]

Who am I twisting it for? You? The commission that Christians have been given has nothing to do with having to convince people. Our love for God, Christ, and love for neighbor is our motivating force for doing what we do. We do this completely volunteer. No one in our entire organization, including our “leaders” (I quote it because Christ is really the head of the congregation) get paid one cent of a salary.

We are told to make disciples of people of all the nations. not ALL the people of all the nations. Our command was to make the truth known, not force it upon those that don’t want it.

The Bible speak of a narrow and cramped road leading off into life, and the wide and spacious road leading off into destruction. The narrow road is going to have less people and is going to be harder to follow. - Matthew 7:13,14. We are forewarned most wont be interested in it.

I, however, still wanted to provide information in a manner that those truly interested will not be left in the dark.

415

Article on what happens when we die if anyone is interested:

http://watchtower.org/e/200712/article_01.htm

416

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The difference in our reasoning is you feel that scripture has 1 fulfillment, and I feel it has a second fulfillment.

I gave scriptural information that doesn’t satisfy you. [/quote]
No the difference is Jesus said the Roman empire, and you want to twist it to mean the entire world. Since that doesn’t fit your view you will twist it. Just like you are still trying to do.

[/quote]

Who am I twisting it for? You? The commission that Christians have been given has nothing to do with having to convince people. Our love for God, Christ, and love for neighbor is our motivating force for doing what we do. We do this completely volunteer. No one in our entire organization, including our “leaders” (I quote it because Christ is really the head of the congregation) get paid one cent of a salary.

We are told to make disciples of people of all the nations. not ALL the people of all the nations. Our command was to make the truth known, not force it upon those that don’t want it.

The Bible speak of a narrow and cramped road leading off into life, and the wide and spacious road leading off into destruction. The narrow road is going to have less people and is going to be harder to follow. - Matthew 7:13,14. We are forewarned most wont be interested in it.

I, however, still wanted to provide information in a manner that those truly interested will not be left in the dark. [/quote]

typical. You gave an isagettical interpretation of that verse which is not in line with its actual meaning. When confronted with it you broaden the scope to include other things which have nothing to do with the conversation.
all you had to do it just admit that verse has nothing to do with your point. Which it didn’t because it was referring to the gospel spreading through out the Roman empire. Which no longer exists. Rather than admit you did that you have done nothing but go out of your way to try and make a point all the way committing logicl fallacies. It isn’t that no one will debate you on these subjects it is that you refuse to stay with in the scope of the conversation.

417

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
ZEB wrote:
dmaddox wrote:

I dont blame Honest because this is what he is taught. I blame the leaders of the church that keep shoveling out these lies, and then figuring they are lies, and then coming up with new lies.[/quote]

I’m not so sure, at some point these drone mouth pieces need to stand up to whomever programmed them and ask some serious questions.

I encourage you to read the link, those are serious questions you seek.[/quote]

For the third time I am not seeking questions, from you.I fully understand the meaning of the trinity and fully accept it. You obviously don’t because your cult has taught you otherwise, that I understand fully as well.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit are one.

418

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Article on what happens when we die if anyone is interested:

http://watchtower.org/e/200712/article_01.htm[/quote]

LOL, like the watchtower knows anything about the after life. It’s like trying to get directions from a blind man.

But it’s good that T-Nation allows you to post your propaganda, I know you guys have a quota so this probably helps out a lot huh?

419

One of the things I was thinking about last night was about Truth. What is Truth? Truth was, is, and always will be truth. Truth never changes. The only thing that can change is lies.

Worship in Spirit and in Truth? Isnt that what you say Honest_Lifter.

420

[quote]BULLD0G700 wrote:
OK Zeb and Maddux this site a training site that you guys have called me out on. I look at both of your postings an not one of you guys have posted anything to do with lifting this whole year. Hypocrites.[/quote]

Do you know what that means Bulldog? I have posted on several of the training articles that have been posted. I am calling you out not on training but your ability to follow Honest_lifter where ever he goes.

421

Michael the Archangel

The spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending God’s (Jehovah’s) rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name - “Who Is Like God?”

At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the Apostle Peter, as Simon. (Gen 49:1,2; Matt 10:2) Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth. Here is the scriptural reasons for drawing that conclusion.

  1. Archangel

God’s Word refers to Michael “the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.” Notice that Michael is call THE archangel. This suggests that theres is only one such angel. In fact, the term “archangel” occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thess 4:16 states: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel. This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael.

  1. Army Leader

The Bible states that “Michael and his angels battled with the dragon…and its angels.” (Rev 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Rev 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thess 1:7; Matt 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Matt 13:41) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven - one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus-it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.

422

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The difference in our reasoning is you feel that scripture has 1 fulfillment, and I feel it has a second fulfillment.

I gave scriptural information that doesn’t satisfy you. [/quote]
No the difference is Jesus said the Roman empire, and you want to twist it to mean the entire world. Since that doesn’t fit your view you will twist it. Just like you are still trying to do.

[/quote]

Who am I twisting it for? You? The commission that Christians have been given has nothing to do with having to convince people. Our love for God, Christ, and love for neighbor is our motivating force for doing what we do. We do this completely volunteer. No one in our entire organization, including our “leaders” (I quote it because Christ is really the head of the congregation) get paid one cent of a salary.

We are told to make disciples of people of all the nations. not ALL the people of all the nations. Our command was to make the truth known, not force it upon those that don’t want it.

The Bible speak of a narrow and cramped road leading off into life, and the wide and spacious road leading off into destruction. The narrow road is going to have less people and is going to be harder to follow. - Matthew 7:13,14. We are forewarned most wont be interested in it.

I, however, still wanted to provide information in a manner that those truly interested will not be left in the dark. [/quote]

typical. You gave an isagettical interpretation of that verse which is not in line with its actual meaning. When confronted with it you broaden the scope to include other things which have nothing to do with the conversation.
all you had to do it just admit that verse has nothing to do with your point. Which it didn’t because it was referring to the gospel spreading through out the Roman empire. Which no longer exists. Rather than admit you did that you have done nothing but go out of your way to try and make a point all the way committing logicl fallacies. It isn’t that no one will debate you on these subjects it is that you refuse to stay with in the scope of the conversation. [/quote]

The conclusion of the system of things is on topic, but you said you didn’t wish to discuss it with me. I shared Matt 28:20 with you, because you said before that you didn’t have a disagreement with that, but that also wasn’t good enough. Topics can include more than one scripture, and in fact, a lot of times, require more than one scripture. If someone is going to be involved in a discussion, sometimes a baseline is a requirement, but many are too anxious to prove their point that they don’t want to wait/allow for that. Instead they call foul.

I have asked MANY questions in “The Church or The Bible” without even a HINT of a response.