The Church or The Bible

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
383

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Wisdom is proved righteous by its actions. [/quote]

Righteousness can not be gained by actions only given to us by Grace from God. God is the only righteous and only he can give righteousness to us being a sinner.[/quote]

Those were Jesus words, not mine.[/quote]

As I stated God is the only righteous person, and he is Jesus so there you go. Humans can not be righteous in our sinful state.[/quote]

That is not what the scripture is saying. Jesus and John the Baptizer were both being persecuted and slandered. One came eating or drinking nothing and the people said they had a demon. The other came eating and drinking and they said he was a glutton and a drunkard.

You can not please all people, however through your actions you can prove whether or way is righteous or not.

384

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

I tried addressing your questions. You didn’t like the response. Don’t worry, I am fine. I have researched much on my own, and will continue to do such. I hope you continue to do the same.[/quote]

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you’re just confused and tried to address someone else’s points. However, I laid out some very extensive scripture which spoke to the fact that there was and is a real hell where you are able to feel torment. What did you respond with? You didn’t.

I then put forth the passage on the rich man who passed away and was in hell and felt he was being tormented. I asked you to respond. Did you? No.

Which means that you are going to dodge that as well. At least you’re consistent.

You are experienced enough to know which questions to dodge that I’ll give you. You’ve tried to derail every single point that I’ve made regarding hell and you know it. However, you are not experienced enough to yet understand the truth when it is staring you in the face.

I’ve had “debates” with others of your belief. As long as they can set the tone and direct the argument they can usually continue to twist the scripture into something that is at least palatable to the average person. As soon as someone pushes them with Biblical facts (as I did you) they walk away.

I would suggest that you keep walking, no mature Christian is going to allow you to get away with this nonsense. Honestly I pitty those who are foolish enough to let people like you in the door.

There is a time to debate and also a time to simply slam the door on the sort of doctrine that you are pushing.

[b]2 John 10 & 11:

“If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite that person into your home or give any kind of encouragement. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.”[/b][/quote]

“Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt, so as to know how you ought to give an answer to each one.”

That is all I am trying to do.
[/quote]

You have been deceived and now you are deceiving others with what you believe to be true doctrine.
[/quote]

Again, the answers are in the Bible, look for them. Never to be too haughty to accept counsel.

You say what can some 20-something year old know?

Matthew 11:25

At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.”

Also Jesus warned us that most wouldn’t listen.

Matthew 10:11-15

11Â Into whatever city or village YOU enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until YOU leave. 12Â When YOU are entering into the house, greet the household; 13Â and if the house is deserving, let the peace YOU wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from YOU return upon YOU. 14Â Wherever anyone does not take YOU in or listen to YOUR words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off YOUR feet. Â Truly I say to YOU, It will be more endurable for the land of Sodâ?²om and Goâ?§morâ?²rah on Judgment Day than for that city.

The preaching work that Jehovah’s Witnesses do and have become almost universally known for was a commission from Jesus Christ himself. Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide volunteer in excess of 1.5 Billion hours in the preaching work each year to reach those that are sheep-like.

I have become the main person attacked for my beliefs on these topics.

Matthew 5:11

11Â "Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. 12Â Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU.

You have attacked me for not responding to questions, when I had been trying to all along.

Look at how Jesus responded to the “questioning” that he received near the end of his life, while he was on trial.

Mark 14:53-65

They now led Jesus away to the high priest, and all the chief priests and the older men and the scribes assembled. 54Â But Peter, from a good distance, followed him as far as in the courtyard of the high priest; and he was sitting together with the house attendants and warming himself before a bright fire. 55Â Meantime the chief priests and the whole Sanâ?²heâ?§drin were looking for testimony against Jesus to put him to death, but they were not finding any. 56Â Many, indeed, were giving false witness against him, but their testimonies were not in agreement. 57Â Also, certain ones were rising and bearing false witness against him, saying: 58Â â??We heard him say, â??I will throw down this temple that was made with hands and in three days I will build another not made with hands.â??â?? 59Â But neither on these grounds was their testimony in agreement.
60Â Finally the high priest rose in their midst and questioned Jesus, saying: â??Do you say nothing in reply? What is it these are testifying against you?â?? 61Â But he kept silent and made no reply at all. Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: â??Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?â?? 62Â Then Jesus said: â??I am; and YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.â?? 63Â At this the high priest ripped his inner garments and said: â??What further need do we have of witnesses? 64Â YOU heard the blasphemy. What is evident to YOU?â?? They all condemned him to be liable to death. 65Â And some started to spit on him and to cover his whole face and hit him with their fists and say to him: â??Prophesy!â?? And, slapping him in the face, the court attendants took him.

The bottom line is we have been commissioned to preach to all the inhabited earth for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14. I will not stop this preaching work because, yet again, I have run into some barrier. This was a command by Jesus and because of my love for him and for God, I will continue it.

I wish you all the best.

385

[quote]BULLD0G700 wrote:
More on Catholic Church and Nazism:
During his recent visit to Germany, PopeÃ? John Paul II tried to emphasize the opposition of the Catholic Church to Nazism. According to accounts, he listed many clerical and lay Catholics who opposed the Nazis.

But according to â??The New York Timesâ?? (May� 4, 1987), this â??effort has drawn criticism from some Catholics, however, who accuse the Pope of distorting the fact that few Catholic leaders actually resisted Nazi tyranny, beyond struggling to save church prerogatives.â??

Even Jesuit priest Rupert Mayer, whom the pope beatified for speaking out against the Nazis, was interned in the Benedictine abbey of Ettal under an agreement between Nazi leaders and the church hierarchy, for whom the Jesuitâ??s outspokenness had become an embarrassment, according to the â??Times.â?? One Jesuit priest!

Why did not the pope honor scores of Catholic bishops, archbishops, and cardinals, plus thousands of Catholic priests, for their opposition to the Nazis? Because the vast majority did not resist Nazism!â??
[/quote]

So you are saying that silence means affirmation? Good old, die if you do, crook if you don’t. Yes, most Catholics did not march through the streets opposing Nazism. However, when most people realised what the Nazis where up to, the Nazis were the one’s marching the streets. Look at their actions and the Jews that they hid.

386

[quote]BULLD0G700 wrote:
If you guys want a good read, read this book:

Goodbye, Good Men: How Liberals Brought Corruption into the Catholic Church
by Michael S. Rose
Regnery Publishing, Inc.; ISBN: 0895261448
Hardcover - (May, 2002)

The story behind the crisis in the Catholic Church is far worse than you thinkâ?¦

Intimidation, Discrimination, Molestation, Rape, Sexual Promiscuity, and Cover-Ups-Thatâ??s What Going on Inside Many Catholic Seminaries Across the Country

As the controversy surrounding the Catholic Church deepens, many people are asking: How could this have happened? In a new book, Goodbye, Good Men, author Michael Rose presents shocking evidence that the root of the problem extends down to the very place where vocations to the priesthood germinate: the seminary. Rose, who over the course of two years interviewed some 125 seminarians representing fifty dioceses and twenty-two major seminaries, has uncovered a profound spiritual problem inside the seminaries and a sickness of untold proportions.

Goodbye, Good Men: How Liberals Brought Corruption into the Catholic Church exposes the deliberate infiltration by those who wish to change the doctrines, disciplines and mission of the Catholic Church. This radical subculture and its liberal mindset-one that accepts homosexuality and sexual promiscuity in many seminaries-threatens the future of the Catholic Church.

The gay subculture is so prominent at certain seminaries that they have earned nicknames such as: â??Pink Palaceâ?? (St. Maryâ??s Seminary in Baltimore), â??Notre Flameâ?? (Notre Dame Seminary in New Orleans), and â??Theological Closetâ?? (Theological College at the Catholic University of America in Washington, DC). At these and several other seminaries, Rose found shocking examples of how, time and time again, chaste heterosexual seminarians are dismissed as unfit for the priesthood, while promiscuous homosexuals, and even those who have harassed, molested, or even raped other seminarians, are protected or promoted.

For anyone who has asked how pedophiles or predatory homosexual priests could possibly have been tolerated-here is the answer, in the most explosive book on the Catholic Church in a generation.
[/quote]

Yes, thank you for airing out our dirty laundry I hope no one does that to you. This is why I am not a fan of Vatican II. It let in the liberals agenda, however the Church is not to be abandoned because of bad players in the Church. However, it is over do for things in the Church to be changed.

387

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

I tried addressing your questions. You didn’t like the response. Don’t worry, I am fine. I have researched much on my own, and will continue to do such. I hope you continue to do the same.[/quote]

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you’re just confused and tried to address someone else’s points. However, I laid out some very extensive scripture which spoke to the fact that there was and is a real hell where you are able to feel torment. What did you respond with? You didn’t.

I then put forth the passage on the rich man who passed away and was in hell and felt he was being tormented. I asked you to respond. Did you? No.

Which means that you are going to dodge that as well. At least you’re consistent.

You are experienced enough to know which questions to dodge that I’ll give you. You’ve tried to derail every single point that I’ve made regarding hell and you know it. However, you are not experienced enough to yet understand the truth when it is staring you in the face.

I’ve had “debates” with others of your belief. As long as they can set the tone and direct the argument they can usually continue to twist the scripture into something that is at least palatable to the average person. As soon as someone pushes them with Biblical facts (as I did you) they walk away.

I would suggest that you keep walking, no mature Christian is going to allow you to get away with this nonsense. Honestly I pitty those who are foolish enough to let people like you in the door.

There is a time to debate and also a time to simply slam the door on the sort of doctrine that you are pushing.

[b]2 John 10 & 11:

“If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite that person into your home or give any kind of encouragement. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.”[/b][/quote]

“Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt, so as to know how you ought to give an answer to each one.”

That is all I am trying to do.
[/quote]

You have been deceived and now you are deceiving others with what you believe to be true doctrine.
[/quote]

Again, the answers are in the Bible, look for them. Never to be too haughty to accept counsel.

You say what can some 20-something year old know?

Matthew 11:25

At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.”

Also Jesus warned us that most wouldn’t listen.

Matthew 10:11-15

11� Into whatever city or village YOU enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until YOU leave. 12� When YOU are entering into the house, greet the household; 13� and if the house is deserving, let the peace YOU wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from YOU return upon YOU. 14� Wherever anyone does not take YOU in or listen to YOUR words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off YOUR feet. � Truly I say to YOU, It will be more endurable for the land of Sodâ?²om and Goâ?§morâ?²rah on Judgment Day than for that city.

The preaching work that Jehovah’s Witnesses do and have become almost universally known for was a commission from Jesus Christ himself. Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide volunteer in excess of 1.5 Billion hours in the preaching work each year to reach those that are sheep-like.

I have become the main person attacked for my beliefs on these topics.

Matthew 5:11

11Ã? "Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. 12Ã? Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU.

You have attacked me for not responding to questions, when I had been trying to all along.

Look at how Jesus responded to the “questioning” that he received near the end of his life, while he was on trial.

Mark 14:53-65

They now led Jesus away to the high priest, and all the chief priests and the older men and the scribes assembled. 54� But Peter, from a good distance, followed him as far as in the courtyard of the high priest; and he was sitting together with the house attendants and warming himself before a bright fire. 55� Meantime the chief priests and the whole Sanâ?²heâ?§drin were looking for testimony against Jesus to put him to death, but they were not finding any. 56� Many, indeed, were giving false witness against him, but their testimonies were not in agreement. 57� Also, certain ones were rising and bearing false witness against him, saying: 58� â??We heard him say, â??I will throw down this temple that was made with hands and in three days I will build another not made with hands.â??â?? 59� But neither on these grounds was their testimony in agreement.
60� Finally the high priest rose in their midst and questioned Jesus, saying: â??Do you say nothing in reply? What is it these are testifying against you?â?? 61� But he kept silent and made no reply at all. Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: â??Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?â?? 62� Then Jesus said: â??I am; and YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.â?? 63� At this the high priest ripped his inner garments and said: â??What further need do we have of witnesses? 64� YOU heard the blasphemy. What is evident to YOU?â?? They all condemned him to be liable to death. 65� And some started to spit on him and to cover his whole face and hit him with their fists and say to him: â??Prophesy!â?? And, slapping him in the face, the court attendants took him.

The bottom line is we have been commissioned to preach to all the inhabited earth for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14. I will not stop this preaching work because, yet again, I have run into some barrier. This was a command by Jesus and because of my love for him and for God, I will continue it.

I wish you all the best.[/quote]

As you state in your own verse. Jesus tells us, “I am.” These 2 words states he is God. Before Jesus was born the angels proclaimed his name would be Emanuel, God with Us. How can Jesus be called God with us if he is not God? Because your heart is hardened, and your eyes close, I dust my shoes off and leave any forum that you are apart of. May God reveal himself before you stand before him at Judgement Day. You are still in the Darkness, and I hope you will come out into the light.

388

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

I tried addressing your questions. You didn’t like the response. Don’t worry, I am fine. I have researched much on my own, and will continue to do such. I hope you continue to do the same.[/quote]

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you’re just confused and tried to address someone else’s points. However, I laid out some very extensive scripture which spoke to the fact that there was and is a real hell where you are able to feel torment. What did you respond with? You didn’t.

I then put forth the passage on the rich man who passed away and was in hell and felt he was being tormented. I asked you to respond. Did you? No.

Which means that you are going to dodge that as well. At least you’re consistent.

You are experienced enough to know which questions to dodge that I’ll give you. You’ve tried to derail every single point that I’ve made regarding hell and you know it. However, you are not experienced enough to yet understand the truth when it is staring you in the face.

I’ve had “debates” with others of your belief. As long as they can set the tone and direct the argument they can usually continue to twist the scripture into something that is at least palatable to the average person. As soon as someone pushes them with Biblical facts (as I did you) they walk away.

I would suggest that you keep walking, no mature Christian is going to allow you to get away with this nonsense. Honestly I pitty those who are foolish enough to let people like you in the door.

There is a time to debate and also a time to simply slam the door on the sort of doctrine that you are pushing.

[b]2 John 10 & 11:

“If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite that person into your home or give any kind of encouragement. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.”[/b][/quote]

“Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt, so as to know how you ought to give an answer to each one.”

That is all I am trying to do.
[/quote]

You have been deceived and now you are deceiving others with what you believe to be true doctrine.
[/quote]

Again, the answers are in the Bible, look for them. Never to be too haughty to accept counsel.

You say what can some 20-something year old know?

Matthew 11:25

At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.”

Also Jesus warned us that most wouldn’t listen.

Matthew 10:11-15

11� Into whatever city or village YOU enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until YOU leave. 12� When YOU are entering into the house, greet the household; 13� and if the house is deserving, let the peace YOU wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from YOU return upon YOU. 14� Wherever anyone does not take YOU in or listen to YOUR words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off YOUR feet. � Truly I say to YOU, It will be more endurable for the land of Sodâ?²om and Goâ?§morâ?²rah on Judgment Day than for that city.

The preaching work that Jehovah’s Witnesses do and have become almost universally known for was a commission from Jesus Christ himself. Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide volunteer in excess of 1.5 Billion hours in the preaching work each year to reach those that are sheep-like.

I have become the main person attacked for my beliefs on these topics.

Matthew 5:11

11Ã? "Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. 12Ã? Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU.

You have attacked me for not responding to questions, when I had been trying to all along.

Look at how Jesus responded to the “questioning” that he received near the end of his life, while he was on trial.

Mark 14:53-65

They now led Jesus away to the high priest, and all the chief priests and the older men and the scribes assembled. 54� But Peter, from a good distance, followed him as far as in the courtyard of the high priest; and he was sitting together with the house attendants and warming himself before a bright fire. 55� Meantime the chief priests and the whole Sanâ?²heâ?§drin were looking for testimony against Jesus to put him to death, but they were not finding any. 56� Many, indeed, were giving false witness against him, but their testimonies were not in agreement. 57� Also, certain ones were rising and bearing false witness against him, saying: 58� â??We heard him say, â??I will throw down this temple that was made with hands and in three days I will build another not made with hands.â??â?? 59� But neither on these grounds was their testimony in agreement.
60� Finally the high priest rose in their midst and questioned Jesus, saying: â??Do you say nothing in reply? What is it these are testifying against you?â?? 61� But he kept silent and made no reply at all. Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: â??Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?â?? 62� Then Jesus said: â??I am; and YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.â?? 63� At this the high priest ripped his inner garments and said: â??What further need do we have of witnesses? 64� YOU heard the blasphemy. What is evident to YOU?â?? They all condemned him to be liable to death. 65� And some started to spit on him and to cover his whole face and hit him with their fists and say to him: â??Prophesy!â?? And, slapping him in the face, the court attendants took him.

The bottom line is we have been commissioned to preach to all the inhabited earth for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14. I will not stop this preaching work because, yet again, I have run into some barrier. This was a command by Jesus and because of my love for him and for God, I will continue it.

.[/quote]

Thank you that was amusing. You did exactly what I accused you of doing several posts back. You take legitimate scripture and try to use it to prove an illEgitimate point.

Here’s your bottom line:

  1. You don’t believe that there is a place called hell where souls suffer eternal punishment and [THAT IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL FACT

  2. You do not believe in the trinity, Father, Son, Holy spirit and THAT IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL FACT

  3. You don’t believe that God created the Universe directly,(you think an angel did it) and THAT IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL FACT

  4. You believe that Jesus Christ was an angel and not the son of God and THAT IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL FACT

There are more obvious discrepancies, but these will certainly do. Here’s a clue for you, there can be no Christianity without Christ. You can’t lower Christ to a position that accommodates your false beliefs and call yourself a Christian.

389

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

I tried addressing your questions. You didn’t like the response. Don’t worry, I am fine. I have researched much on my own, and will continue to do such. I hope you continue to do the same.[/quote]

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you’re just confused and tried to address someone else’s points. However, I laid out some very extensive scripture which spoke to the fact that there was and is a real hell where you are able to feel torment. What did you respond with? You didn’t.

I then put forth the passage on the rich man who passed away and was in hell and felt he was being tormented. I asked you to respond. Did you? No.

Which means that you are going to dodge that as well. At least you’re consistent.

You are experienced enough to know which questions to dodge that I’ll give you. You’ve tried to derail every single point that I’ve made regarding hell and you know it. However, you are not experienced enough to yet understand the truth when it is staring you in the face.

I’ve had “debates” with others of your belief. As long as they can set the tone and direct the argument they can usually continue to twist the scripture into something that is at least palatable to the average person. As soon as someone pushes them with Biblical facts (as I did you) they walk away.

I would suggest that you keep walking, no mature Christian is going to allow you to get away with this nonsense. Honestly I pitty those who are foolish enough to let people like you in the door.

There is a time to debate and also a time to simply slam the door on the sort of doctrine that you are pushing.

[b]2 John 10 & 11:

“If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite that person into your home or give any kind of encouragement. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.”[/b][/quote]

“Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt, so as to know how you ought to give an answer to each one.”

That is all I am trying to do.
[/quote]

You have been deceived and now you are deceiving others with what you believe to be true doctrine.
[/quote]

Again, the answers are in the Bible, look for them. Never to be too haughty to accept counsel.

You say what can some 20-something year old know?

Matthew 11:25

At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.”

Also Jesus warned us that most wouldn’t listen.

Matthew 10:11-15

11�? Into whatever city or village YOU enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until YOU leave. 12�? When YOU are entering into the house, greet the household; 13�? and if the house is deserving, let the peace YOU wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from YOU return upon YOU. 14�? Wherever anyone does not take YOU in or listen to YOUR words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off YOUR feet. �? Truly I say to YOU, It will be more endurable for the land of Sod�¢?�²om and Go�¢?�§mor�¢?�²rah on Judgment Day than for that city.

The preaching work that Jehovah’s Witnesses do and have become almost universally known for was a commission from Jesus Christ himself. Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide volunteer in excess of 1.5 Billion hours in the preaching work each year to reach those that are sheep-like.

I have become the main person attacked for my beliefs on these topics.

Matthew 5:11

11Ã?? "Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. 12Ã?? Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU.

You have attacked me for not responding to questions, when I had been trying to all along.

Look at how Jesus responded to the “questioning” that he received near the end of his life, while he was on trial.

Mark 14:53-65

They now led Jesus away to the high priest, and all the chief priests and the older men and the scribes assembled. 54�? But Peter, from a good distance, followed him as far as in the courtyard of the high priest; and he was sitting together with the house attendants and warming himself before a bright fire. 55�? Meantime the chief priests and the whole San�¢?�²he�¢?�§drin were looking for testimony against Jesus to put him to death, but they were not finding any. 56�? Many, indeed, were giving false witness against him, but their testimonies were not in agreement. 57�? Also, certain ones were rising and bearing false witness against him, saying: 58�? �¢??We heard him say, �¢??I will throw down this temple that was made with hands and in three days I will build another not made with hands.�¢??�¢?? 59�? But neither on these grounds was their testimony in agreement.
60�? Finally the high priest rose in their midst and questioned Jesus, saying: �¢??Do you say nothing in reply? What is it these are testifying against you?�¢?? 61�? But he kept silent and made no reply at all. Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: �¢??Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?�¢?? 62�? Then Jesus said: �¢??I am; and YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.�¢?? 63�? At this the high priest ripped his inner garments and said: �¢??What further need do we have of witnesses? 64�? YOU heard the blasphemy. What is evident to YOU?�¢?? They all condemned him to be liable to death. 65�? And some started to spit on him and to cover his whole face and hit him with their fists and say to him: �¢??Prophesy!�¢?? And, slapping him in the face, the court attendants took him.

The bottom line is we have been commissioned to preach to all the inhabited earth for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14. I will not stop this preaching work because, yet again, I have run into some barrier. This was a command by Jesus and because of my love for him and for God, I will continue it.

.[/quote]

Thank you that was amusing. You did exactly what I accused you of doing several posts back. You take legitimate scripture and try to use it to prove an illEgitimate point.

Here’s your bottom line:

  1. You don’t believe that there is a place called hell where souls suffer eternal punishment and [THAT IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL FACT

  2. You do not believe in the trinity, Father, Son, Holy spirit and THAT IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL FACT

  3. You don’t believe that God created the Universe directly,(you think an angel did it) and THAT IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL FACT

  4. You believe that Jesus Christ was an angel and not the son of God and THAT IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL FACT

There are more obvious discrepancies, but these will certainly do. Here’s a clue for you, there can be no Christianity without Christ. You can’t lower Christ to a position that accommodates your false beliefs and call yourself a Christian.

[/quote]

I agree with your assessment on 1-3 and final explaination of it is not Christianity without Christ. I do believe that Honest thinks that Jesus is the Son of God, only becuase the archangel Micheal was created by God so that makes him his son. It might be twisted but I see the logic.

  1. Honest does not beleive that Jesus is God which is AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH and SCRIPTURAL FACT.
390

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The bottom line is we have been commissioned to preach to all the inhabited earth for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14. I will not stop this preaching work because, yet again, I have run into some barrier. This was a command by Jesus and because of my love for him and for God, I will continue it.

I wish you all the best.[/quote]

Since you are a fan of taking it back to the greek than I should point out the word world in matt 24:14 is a very specific greek word for the Roman Empire and not the entire globe.

391

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The bottom line is we have been commissioned to preach to all the inhabited earth for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14. I will not stop this preaching work because, yet again, I have run into some barrier. This was a command by Jesus and because of my love for him and for God, I will continue it.

I wish you all the best.[/quote]

Since you are a fan of taking it back to the greek than I should point out the word world in matt 24:14 is a very specific greek word for the Roman Empire and not the entire globe.[/quote]

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3625.htm

Interesting to point out there was an initial fullfillment of this prophecy as stated in Col 1:23.

Revelation speaks of a greater fulfillment of this prophecy, chapter 24 of Matthew was talking in reference to Christ’s PRESENCE or parousias.

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3952.htm

392

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The bottom line is we have been commissioned to preach to all the inhabited earth for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14. I will not stop this preaching work because, yet again, I have run into some barrier. This was a command by Jesus and because of my love for him and for God, I will continue it.

I wish you all the best.[/quote]

Since you are a fan of taking it back to the greek than I should point out the word world in matt 24:14 is a very specific greek word for the Roman Empire and not the entire globe.[/quote]

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3625.htm

Interesting to point out there was an initial fullfillment of this prophecy as stated in Col 1:23.

Revelation speaks of a greater fulfillment of this prophecy, chapter 24 of Matthew was talking in reference to Christ’s PRESENCE or parousias.

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3952.htm

[/quote]

  1. I don’t buy double fulfillment prophecies especially when the text in context doesn’t indicate it and matthew 24 Jesus used those words without any indication of a double fulfillment.

  2. I see a claim of what revelation says without an actual scripture to go with it. Just citing greek words by themself does not bolster ones agrument.

393

[quote]BULLD0G700 wrote:
Pat the point is that they were showing things bashing his religion, which semm small compared to what’s going on in the Catholic Church.[/quote]

I don’t agree with bashing his religion and if you read my posts, I have made that abundantly clear.

There are 1.2 billion Catholics in the world, you are bound to have some assholes. That doesn’t invalidate the whole religion, it doesn’t mean that all Catholics talk out of both sides of their mouths, it means none of that. The vast majority are well meaning, well intentioned people who do mostly good works. If you pay attention to only the bad, that’s all you’ll see.

As an aside, I find it interesting that nobody considers bashing Catholics as any kind of discrimination. You do it to any other group and it is condemned. Do it to us and it’s welcomed.

We are a powerful force in sheer numbers and their are a whole slew of folks wanting to take us down. It ain’t gonna happen. Jesus established this church by his own authority, it’s directly traceable to the moment Jesus made Peter the rock…We may stumble, but we won’t fall.

394

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The bottom line is we have been commissioned to preach to all the inhabited earth for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14. I will not stop this preaching work because, yet again, I have run into some barrier. This was a command by Jesus and because of my love for him and for God, I will continue it.

I wish you all the best.[/quote]

Since you are a fan of taking it back to the greek than I should point out the word world in matt 24:14 is a very specific greek word for the Roman Empire and not the entire globe.[/quote]

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3625.htm

Interesting to point out there was an initial fullfillment of this prophecy as stated in Col 1:23.

Revelation speaks of a greater fulfillment of this prophecy, chapter 24 of Matthew was talking in reference to Christ’s PRESENCE or parousias.

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3952.htm

[/quote]

  1. I don’t buy double fulfillment prophecies especially when the text in context doesn’t indicate it and matthew 24 Jesus used those words without any indication of a double fulfillment.

  2. I see a claim of what revelation says without an actual scripture to go with it. Just citing greek words by themself does not bolster ones agrument.[/quote]

  3. 70 C.E. and the destruction of Jerusalem was the first fulfillment.

  4. Revelation 12:7-12,17; 14:6,7; 9:5,6; 22:17

395

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The bottom line is we have been commissioned to preach to all the inhabited earth for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14. I will not stop this preaching work because, yet again, I have run into some barrier. This was a command by Jesus and because of my love for him and for God, I will continue it.

I wish you all the best.[/quote]

Since you are a fan of taking it back to the greek than I should point out the word world in matt 24:14 is a very specific greek word for the Roman Empire and not the entire globe.[/quote]

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3625.htm

Interesting to point out there was an initial fullfillment of this prophecy as stated in Col 1:23.

Revelation speaks of a greater fulfillment of this prophecy, chapter 24 of Matthew was talking in reference to Christ’s PRESENCE or parousias.

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3952.htm

[/quote]

  1. I don’t buy double fulfillment prophecies especially when the text in context doesn’t indicate it and matthew 24 Jesus used those words without any indication of a double fulfillment.

  2. I see a claim of what revelation says without an actual scripture to go with it. Just citing greek words by themself does not bolster ones agrument.[/quote]

  3. 70 C.E. and the destruction of Jerusalem was the first fulfillment.

  4. Revelation 12:7-12,17; 14:6,7; 9:5,6; 22:17[/quote]

  5. I think that is the only fulfillment of that chapter. So all you did was point out what I already think is the fulfillment of that chapter. There is no future fulfillment of that chapter. Christ was specifically referring to his vindication.

Although none of that is really the point to me posting. You said that JW’s are fulfilling that specific verse. That specific verse refers to only the known Roman world in the first century. So either you are a bunch of over achievers and going into a bigger scope of the world than Christ intended with that verse, or you are using that verse inappropriately.
You are also using col incorrectly. Paul is using hyperbole to illustrate a point unless you are claiming that they literal spoke the gospel to all creatures including animals.

I only brought it up b\c you were saying something that just doesn’t go with that verse.
Now you could use matt. 28:19 and I won’t complain, but you can’t use matt 24:14.

as for the 2nd point you didn’t make a specific enough claim with those verses for me to agree or disagree.

396

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

I tried addressing your questions. You didn’t like the response. Don’t worry, I am fine. I have researched much on my own, and will continue to do such. I hope you continue to do the same.[/quote]

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you’re just confused and tried to address someone else’s points. However, I laid out some very extensive scripture which spoke to the fact that there was and is a real hell where you are able to feel torment. What did you respond with? You didn’t.

I then put forth the passage on the rich man who passed away and was in hell and felt he was being tormented. I asked you to respond. Did you? No.

Which means that you are going to dodge that as well. At least you’re consistent.

You are experienced enough to know which questions to dodge that I’ll give you. You’ve tried to derail every single point that I’ve made regarding hell and you know it. However, you are not experienced enough to yet understand the truth when it is staring you in the face.

I’ve had “debates” with others of your belief. As long as they can set the tone and direct the argument they can usually continue to twist the scripture into something that is at least palatable to the average person. As soon as someone pushes them with Biblical facts (as I did you) they walk away.

I would suggest that you keep walking, no mature Christian is going to allow you to get away with this nonsense. Honestly I pitty those who are foolish enough to let people like you in the door.

There is a time to debate and also a time to simply slam the door on the sort of doctrine that you are pushing.

[b]2 John 10 & 11:

“If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite that person into your home or give any kind of encouragement. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.”[/b][/quote]

“Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt, so as to know how you ought to give an answer to each one.”

That is all I am trying to do.
[/quote]

You have been deceived and now you are deceiving others with what you believe to be true doctrine.
[/quote]

Again, the answers are in the Bible, look for them. Never to be too haughty to accept counsel.

You say what can some 20-something year old know?

Matthew 11:25

At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.”

Also Jesus warned us that most wouldn’t listen.

Matthew 10:11-15

11�?? Into whatever city or village YOU enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until YOU leave. 12�?? When YOU are entering into the house, greet the household; 13�?? and if the house is deserving, let the peace YOU wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from YOU return upon YOU. 14�?? Wherever anyone does not take YOU in or listen to YOUR words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off YOUR feet. �?? Truly I say to YOU, It will be more endurable for the land of Sod�?�¢?�?�²om and Go�?�¢?�?�§mor�?�¢?�?�²rah on Judgment Day than for that city.

The preaching work that Jehovah’s Witnesses do and have become almost universally known for was a commission from Jesus Christ himself. Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide volunteer in excess of 1.5 Billion hours in the preaching work each year to reach those that are sheep-like.

I have become the main person attacked for my beliefs on these topics.

Matthew 5:11

11Ã??? "Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. 12Ã??? Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU.

You have attacked me for not responding to questions, when I had been trying to all along.

Look at how Jesus responded to the “questioning” that he received near the end of his life, while he was on trial.

Mark 14:53-65

They now led Jesus away to the high priest, and all the chief priests and the older men and the scribes assembled. 54�?? But Peter, from a good distance, followed him as far as in the courtyard of the high priest; and he was sitting together with the house attendants and warming himself before a bright fire. 55�?? Meantime the chief priests and the whole San�?�¢?�?�²he�?�¢?�?�§drin were looking for testimony against Jesus to put him to death, but they were not finding any. 56�?? Many, indeed, were giving false witness against him, but their testimonies were not in agreement. 57�?? Also, certain ones were rising and bearing false witness against him, saying: 58�?? �?�¢??We heard him say, �?�¢??I will throw down this temple that was made with hands and in three days I will build another not made with hands.�?�¢??�?�¢?? 59�?? But neither on these grounds was their testimony in agreement.
60�?? Finally the high priest rose in their midst and questioned Jesus, saying: �?�¢??Do you say nothing in reply? What is it these are testifying against you?�?�¢?? 61�?? But he kept silent and made no reply at all. Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: �?�¢??Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?�?�¢?? 62�?? Then Jesus said: �?�¢??I am; and YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.�?�¢?? 63�?? At this the high priest ripped his inner garments and said: �?�¢??What further need do we have of witnesses? 64�?? YOU heard the blasphemy. What is evident to YOU?�?�¢?? They all condemned him to be liable to death. 65�?? And some started to spit on him and to cover his whole face and hit him with their fists and say to him: �?�¢??Prophesy!�?�¢?? And, slapping him in the face, the court attendants took him.

The bottom line is we have been commissioned to preach to all the inhabited earth for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14. I will not stop this preaching work because, yet again, I have run into some barrier. This was a command by Jesus and because of my love for him and for God, I will continue it.

.[/quote]

Thank you that was amusing. You did exactly what I accused you of doing several posts back. You take legitimate scripture and try to use it to prove an illEgitimate point.

Here’s your bottom line:

  1. You don’t believe that there is a place called hell where souls suffer eternal punishment and [THAT IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL FACT

  2. You do not believe in the trinity, Father, Son, Holy spirit and THAT IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL FACT

  3. You don’t believe that God created the Universe directly,(you think an angel did it) and THAT IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL FACT

  4. You believe that Jesus Christ was an angel and not the son of God and THAT IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL FACT

There are more obvious discrepancies, but these will certainly do. Here’s a clue for you, there can be no Christianity without Christ. You can’t lower Christ to a position that accommodates your false beliefs and call yourself a Christian.

[/quote]

I agree with your assessment on 1-3 and final explaination of it is not Christianity without Christ. I do believe that Honest thinks that Jesus is the Son of God, only becuase the archangel Micheal was created by God so that makes him his son. It might be twisted but I see the logic.

  1. Honest does not beleive that Jesus is God which is AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH and SCRIPTURAL FACT.
    [/quote]

Notice that there’s been no denials of the above? I think that speaks volumes for where this kid is at.

397

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The bottom line is we have been commissioned to preach to all the inhabited earth for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14. I will not stop this preaching work because, yet again, I have run into some barrier. This was a command by Jesus and because of my love for him and for God, I will continue it.

I wish you all the best.[/quote]

Since you are a fan of taking it back to the greek than I should point out the word world in matt 24:14 is a very specific greek word for the Roman Empire and not the entire globe.[/quote]

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3625.htm

Interesting to point out there was an initial fullfillment of this prophecy as stated in Col 1:23.

Revelation speaks of a greater fulfillment of this prophecy, chapter 24 of Matthew was talking in reference to Christ’s PRESENCE or parousias.

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3952.htm

[/quote]

  1. I don’t buy double fulfillment prophecies especially when the text in context doesn’t indicate it and matthew 24 Jesus used those words without any indication of a double fulfillment.

  2. I see a claim of what revelation says without an actual scripture to go with it. Just citing greek words by themself does not bolster ones agrument.[/quote]

  3. 70 C.E. and the destruction of Jerusalem was the first fulfillment.

  4. Revelation 12:7-12,17; 14:6,7; 9:5,6; 22:17[/quote]

  5. I think that is the only fulfillment of that chapter. So all you did was point out what I already think is the fulfillment of that chapter. There is no future fulfillment of that chapter. Christ was specifically referring to his vindication.

Although none of that is really the point to me posting. You said that JW’s are fulfilling that specific verse. That specific verse refers to only the known Roman world in the first century. So either you are a bunch of over achievers and going into a bigger scope of the world than Christ intended with that verse, or you are using that verse inappropriately.
You are also using col incorrectly. Paul is using hyperbole to illustrate a point unless you are claiming that they literal spoke the gospel to all creatures including animals.

I only brought it up b\c you were saying something that just doesn’t go with that verse.
Now you could use matt. 28:19 and I won’t complain, but you can’t use matt 24:14.

as for the 2nd point you didn’t make a specific enough claim with those verses for me to agree or disagree.
[/quote]

Another point to reason on, is the fact that everytime God has destroyed a group of people (be it the flood, ninevah, jersalem, even his attack on Pharoah of eqypt, he has provided a warning. He always wants to give people an opportunity to repent before he brings about destruction.

Matthew 28:19, another great scripture you brought up. To drive the point home, look at the following verse in verse 20. He says that he is with us “all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” That system of things is the same system of things mentioned in Mathew 24:3.

This helps us, when used with the scriptures in Revelation, to reason that there was an additional time period to be expected, because as we know Satan is not destroyed yet, nor was he destroyed in 70 C.E. That is still future.

Your point that Paul wasn’t talking about EVERY creature is correct. He wouldn’t even have know if he reached every PERSON. However, the “good news” had spread to such a degree that he evidently felt proper in saying that, is what can possibly be reasoned from that.

398

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The bottom line is we have been commissioned to preach to all the inhabited earth for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14. I will not stop this preaching work because, yet again, I have run into some barrier. This was a command by Jesus and because of my love for him and for God, I will continue it.

I wish you all the best.[/quote]

Since you are a fan of taking it back to the greek than I should point out the word world in matt 24:14 is a very specific greek word for the Roman Empire and not the entire globe.[/quote]

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3625.htm

Interesting to point out there was an initial fullfillment of this prophecy as stated in Col 1:23.

Revelation speaks of a greater fulfillment of this prophecy, chapter 24 of Matthew was talking in reference to Christ’s PRESENCE or parousias.

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3952.htm

[/quote]

  1. I don’t buy double fulfillment prophecies especially when the text in context doesn’t indicate it and matthew 24 Jesus used those words without any indication of a double fulfillment.

  2. I see a claim of what revelation says without an actual scripture to go with it. Just citing greek words by themself does not bolster ones agrument.[/quote]

  3. 70 C.E. and the destruction of Jerusalem was the first fulfillment.

  4. Revelation 12:7-12,17; 14:6,7; 9:5,6; 22:17[/quote]

  5. I think that is the only fulfillment of that chapter. So all you did was point out what I already think is the fulfillment of that chapter. There is no future fulfillment of that chapter. Christ was specifically referring to his vindication.

Although none of that is really the point to me posting. You said that JW’s are fulfilling that specific verse. That specific verse refers to only the known Roman world in the first century. So either you are a bunch of over achievers and going into a bigger scope of the world than Christ intended with that verse, or you are using that verse inappropriately.
You are also using col incorrectly. Paul is using hyperbole to illustrate a point unless you are claiming that they literal spoke the gospel to all creatures including animals.

I only brought it up b\c you were saying something that just doesn’t go with that verse.
Now you could use matt. 28:19 and I won’t complain, but you can’t use matt 24:14.

as for the 2nd point you didn’t make a specific enough claim with those verses for me to agree or disagree.
[/quote]

Another point to reason on, is the fact that everytime God has destroyed a group of people (be it the flood, ninevah, jersalem, even his attack on Pharoah of eqypt, he has provided a warning. He always wants to give people an opportunity to repent before he brings about destruction.

Matthew 28:19, another great scripture you brought up. To drive the point home, look at the following verse in verse 20. He says that he is with us “all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” That system of things is the same system of things mentioned in Mathew 24:3.

This helps us, when used with the scriptures in Revelation, to reason that there was an additional time period to be expected, because as we know Satan is not destroyed yet, nor was he destroyed in 70 C.E. That is still future.

Your point that Paul wasn’t talking about EVERY creature is correct. He wouldn’t even have know if he reached every PERSON. However, the “good news” had spread to such a degree that he evidently felt proper in saying that, is what can possibly be reasoned from that. [/quote]

There is no other point to look at. You used matt 24:14 incorrectly.

I am not interested in talking about end times with you. I am not interested in comparing
view points on the scripture. I have done that plenty of times with JW’s. What I am interested in is you trying to twist matt 24:14.
So just admit that when you brought it up it had zero to do with your point about JW’s preaching to the world.

399

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BULLD0G700 wrote:
Pat the point is that they were showing things bashing his religion, which semm small compared to what’s going on in the Catholic Church.[/quote]

I don’t agree with bashing his religion and if you read my posts, I have made that abundantly clear.

There are 1.2 billion Catholics in the world, you are bound to have some assholes. That doesn’t invalidate the whole religion, it doesn’t mean that all Catholics talk out of both sides of their mouths, it means none of that. The vast majority are well meaning, well intentioned people who do mostly good works. If you pay attention to only the bad, that’s all you’ll see.

As an aside, I find it interesting that nobody considers bashing Catholics as any kind of discrimination. You do it to any other group and it is condemned. Do it to us and it’s welcomed.

We are a powerful force in sheer numbers and their are a whole slew of folks wanting to take us down. It ain’t gonna happen. Jesus established this church by his own authority, it’s directly traceable to the moment Jesus made Peter the rock…We may stumble, but we won’t fall.[/quote]

I have bashed both Honest and the JW’s and I have apologized and been forgiven.

I agree whole heartedly with you Pat. Catholics seems to get the brunt of the bashing. I will state that Christians as a whole are bashed and martyred daily around the world for their beliefs. We are told to turn the other cheek and people use that when we stand up for ourselves.

I would like to see a list of JW’s who have actually died for their beliefs. If we put together a list of Christians killed for their beliefs it would be a number greater than all JW memebers living and dead. Jesus’ Church set upon the Rock is doing just fine.

400

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

I tried addressing your questions. You didn’t like the response. Don’t worry, I am fine. I have researched much on my own, and will continue to do such. I hope you continue to do the same.[/quote]

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you’re just confused and tried to address someone else’s points. However, I laid out some very extensive scripture which spoke to the fact that there was and is a real hell where you are able to feel torment. What did you respond with? You didn’t.

I then put forth the passage on the rich man who passed away and was in hell and felt he was being tormented. I asked you to respond. Did you? No.

Which means that you are going to dodge that as well. At least you’re consistent.

You are experienced enough to know which questions to dodge that I’ll give you. You’ve tried to derail every single point that I’ve made regarding hell and you know it. However, you are not experienced enough to yet understand the truth when it is staring you in the face.

I’ve had “debates” with others of your belief. As long as they can set the tone and direct the argument they can usually continue to twist the scripture into something that is at least palatable to the average person. As soon as someone pushes them with Biblical facts (as I did you) they walk away.

I would suggest that you keep walking, no mature Christian is going to allow you to get away with this nonsense. Honestly I pitty those who are foolish enough to let people like you in the door.

There is a time to debate and also a time to simply slam the door on the sort of doctrine that you are pushing.

[b]2 John 10 & 11:

“If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite that person into your home or give any kind of encouragement. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.”[/b][/quote]

“Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt, so as to know how you ought to give an answer to each one.”

That is all I am trying to do.
[/quote]

You have been deceived and now you are deceiving others with what you believe to be true doctrine.
[/quote]

Again, the answers are in the Bible, look for them. Never to be too haughty to accept counsel.

You say what can some 20-something year old know?

Matthew 11:25

At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.”

Also Jesus warned us that most wouldn’t listen.

Matthew 10:11-15

11�?? Into whatever city or village YOU enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until YOU leave. 12�?? When YOU are entering into the house, greet the household; 13�?? and if the house is deserving, let the peace YOU wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from YOU return upon YOU. 14�?? Wherever anyone does not take YOU in or listen to YOUR words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off YOUR feet. �?? Truly I say to YOU, It will be more endurable for the land of Sod�??�?�¢?�??�?�²om and Go�??�?�¢?�??�?�§mor�??�?�¢?�??�?�²rah on Judgment Day than for that city.

The preaching work that Jehovah’s Witnesses do and have become almost universally known for was a commission from Jesus Christ himself. Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide volunteer in excess of 1.5 Billion hours in the preaching work each year to reach those that are sheep-like.

I have become the main person attacked for my beliefs on these topics.

Matthew 5:11

11Ã??? "Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. 12Ã??? Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU.

You have attacked me for not responding to questions, when I had been trying to all along.

Look at how Jesus responded to the “questioning” that he received near the end of his life, while he was on trial.

Mark 14:53-65

They now led Jesus away to the high priest, and all the chief priests and the older men and the scribes assembled. 54�?? But Peter, from a good distance, followed him as far as in the courtyard of the high priest; and he was sitting together with the house attendants and warming himself before a bright fire. 55�?? Meantime the chief priests and the whole San�??�?�¢?�??�?�²he�??�?�¢?�??�?�§drin were looking for testimony against Jesus to put him to death, but they were not finding any. 56�?? Many, indeed, were giving false witness against him, but their testimonies were not in agreement. 57�?? Also, certain ones were rising and bearing false witness against him, saying: 58�?? �??�?�¢??We heard him say, �??�?�¢??I will throw down this temple that was made with hands and in three days I will build another not made with hands.�??�?�¢??�??�?�¢?? 59�?? But neither on these grounds was their testimony in agreement.
60�?? Finally the high priest rose in their midst and questioned Jesus, saying: �??�?�¢??Do you say nothing in reply? What is it these are testifying against you?�??�?�¢?? 61�?? But he kept silent and made no reply at all. Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: �??�?�¢??Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?�??�?�¢?? 62�?? Then Jesus said: �??�?�¢??I am; and YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.�??�?�¢?? 63�?? At this the high priest ripped his inner garments and said: �??�?�¢??What further need do we have of witnesses? 64�?? YOU heard the blasphemy. What is evident to YOU?�??�?�¢?? They all condemned him to be liable to death. 65�?? And some started to spit on him and to cover his whole face and hit him with their fists and say to him: �??�?�¢??Prophesy!�??�?�¢?? And, slapping him in the face, the court attendants took him.

The bottom line is we have been commissioned to preach to all the inhabited earth for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14. I will not stop this preaching work because, yet again, I have run into some barrier. This was a command by Jesus and because of my love for him and for God, I will continue it.

.[/quote]

Thank you that was amusing. You did exactly what I accused you of doing several posts back. You take legitimate scripture and try to use it to prove an illEgitimate point.

Here’s your bottom line:

  1. You don’t believe that there is a place called hell where souls suffer eternal punishment and [THAT IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL FACT

  2. You do not believe in the trinity, Father, Son, Holy spirit and THAT IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL FACT

  3. You don’t believe that God created the Universe directly,(you think an angel did it) and THAT IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL FACT

  4. You believe that Jesus Christ was an angel and not the son of God and THAT IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND SCRIPTURAL FACT

There are more obvious discrepancies, but these will certainly do. Here’s a clue for you, there can be no Christianity without Christ. You can’t lower Christ to a position that accommodates your false beliefs and call yourself a Christian.

[/quote]

I agree with your assessment on 1-3 and final explaination of it is not Christianity without Christ. I do believe that Honest thinks that Jesus is the Son of God, only becuase the archangel Micheal was created by God so that makes him his son. It might be twisted but I see the logic.

  1. Honest does not beleive that Jesus is God which is AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH and SCRIPTURAL FACT.
    [/quote]

Notice that there’s been no denials of the above? I think that speaks volumes for where this kid is at.
[/quote]

I dont blame Honest because this is what he is taught. I blame the leaders of the church that keep shoveling out these lies, and then figuring they are lies, and then coming up with new lies.

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[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The bottom line is we have been commissioned to preach to all the inhabited earth for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14. I will not stop this preaching work because, yet again, I have run into some barrier. This was a command by Jesus and because of my love for him and for God, I will continue it.

I wish you all the best.[/quote]

Since you are a fan of taking it back to the greek than I should point out the word world in matt 24:14 is a very specific greek word for the Roman Empire and not the entire globe.[/quote]

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3625.htm

Interesting to point out there was an initial fullfillment of this prophecy as stated in Col 1:23.

Revelation speaks of a greater fulfillment of this prophecy, chapter 24 of Matthew was talking in reference to Christ’s PRESENCE or parousias.

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3952.htm

[/quote]

  1. I don’t buy double fulfillment prophecies especially when the text in context doesn’t indicate it and matthew 24 Jesus used those words without any indication of a double fulfillment.

  2. I see a claim of what revelation says without an actual scripture to go with it. Just citing greek words by themself does not bolster ones agrument.[/quote]

  3. 70 C.E. and the destruction of Jerusalem was the first fulfillment.

  4. Revelation 12:7-12,17; 14:6,7; 9:5,6; 22:17[/quote]

  5. I think that is the only fulfillment of that chapter. So all you did was point out what I already think is the fulfillment of that chapter. There is no future fulfillment of that chapter. Christ was specifically referring to his vindication.

Although none of that is really the point to me posting. You said that JW’s are fulfilling that specific verse. That specific verse refers to only the known Roman world in the first century. So either you are a bunch of over achievers and going into a bigger scope of the world than Christ intended with that verse, or you are using that verse inappropriately.
You are also using col incorrectly. Paul is using hyperbole to illustrate a point unless you are claiming that they literal spoke the gospel to all creatures including animals.

I only brought it up b\c you were saying something that just doesn’t go with that verse.
Now you could use matt. 28:19 and I won’t complain, but you can’t use matt 24:14.

as for the 2nd point you didn’t make a specific enough claim with those verses for me to agree or disagree.
[/quote]

Another point to reason on, is the fact that everytime God has destroyed a group of people (be it the flood, ninevah, jersalem, even his attack on Pharoah of eqypt, he has provided a warning. He always wants to give people an opportunity to repent before he brings about destruction.

Matthew 28:19, another great scripture you brought up. To drive the point home, look at the following verse in verse 20. He says that he is with us “all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” That system of things is the same system of things mentioned in Mathew 24:3.

This helps us, when used with the scriptures in Revelation, to reason that there was an additional time period to be expected, because as we know Satan is not destroyed yet, nor was he destroyed in 70 C.E. That is still future.

Your point that Paul wasn’t talking about EVERY creature is correct. He wouldn’t even have know if he reached every PERSON. However, the “good news” had spread to such a degree that he evidently felt proper in saying that, is what can possibly be reasoned from that. [/quote]

There is no other point to look at. You used matt 24:14 incorrectly.

I am not interested in talking about end times with you. I am not interested in comparing
view points on the scripture. I have done that plenty of times with JW’s. What I am interested in is you trying to twist matt 24:14.
So just admit that when you brought it up it had zero to do with your point about JW’s preaching to the world. [/quote]

The difference in our reasoning is you feel that scripture has 1 fulfillment, and I feel it has a second fulfillment.

I gave scriptural information that doesn’t satisfy you. We receive information everyday that doesn’t satisfy us. I personally am satisfied with the information have a read/received on this particular topic, thus a reason why I share in this preaching work.

Incidently, here is some information on the Trinity for anyone interested. I didn’t post it the entire article, because some just aren’t interested in reading it:

http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/start.htm

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That article made alot of sense, I liked it went to the Bible also to other religious books. Nobody ever could explain the Trintiy to me clearly or even have the same belief in it. Good read