The Church or The Bible

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
How about defend an article written by a Leader. I understand the doctrine has changed on this.

Jehovah Witnesses believed for about 50 years of their history that the great pyramid of Giza, in Egypt was the second witness for God after the Bible? “Jehovah’s Witnesses proclaimers of God’s Kingdom” p. 200).

This is the issue that some of us have. The doctrine of your church seems to change at a drop of a hat. Have you looked at the doctinal history of your church? We are trying to show you the truth man. We might not be able to change your mind. I would say that would be ok, but it is not we do not want you to stand before God/Jehovah/Yahweh/Jesus and he say depart from me I never knew you. This is about a relationship and not about works. I admire your ability to go door to door and witness to people. You are a rock for your religion, but that rock is on a sandy foundation. I just wish your abilities were focused on the truth and not the doctrinal whim put out by a select few in Brooklyn. There is enough Grace for all our sins. As you all saw I have a lot of sins.[/quote]

What is better. Following something that you think is true, write about it, find out it is wrong, then change the belief. OR Following something that you think is true, get confronted with a differing opinion, and stubbornly sticking to a previous belief regardless?

You do realize that you quoted our own literature. WE admitted we were wrong right there in print.[/quote]

I do understand what you are saying. For a Religion that makes a lot of money on publishing books that is just too convienient.

That is the issue. You continue to follow the beliefs of people that continue to beleive things then have to go back and change it ALL the time. I might not be able to proove that Jesus is correct or not, but in the end if my beliefs are wrong then nothing happens. I die and stay in the ground forever, or I am reincarnated into something else, or my works will determine where I go. What if I am right, and Jesus is the only way to heaven?

I am going to stick with the beliefs and writings of the Apostles. They actually spent time with Jesus and were taught directly by him. They also died because they believed he is God.

Your founders never met Jesus, and where not taught by him.[/quote]

Our books are completely free of charge. Thank you.[/quote]

How then do you all get the money to pay for everything?[/quote]

Voluntary contributions. No donation plates are ever passed. Ever.[/quote]

What happens if you never give?

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
How about defend an article written by a Leader. I understand the doctrine has changed on this.

Jehovah Witnesses believed for about 50 years of their history that the great pyramid of Giza, in Egypt was the second witness for God after the Bible? “Jehovah’s Witnesses proclaimers of God’s Kingdom” p. 200).

This is the issue that some of us have. The doctrine of your church seems to change at a drop of a hat. Have you looked at the doctinal history of your church? We are trying to show you the truth man. We might not be able to change your mind. I would say that would be ok, but it is not we do not want you to stand before God/Jehovah/Yahweh/Jesus and he say depart from me I never knew you. This is about a relationship and not about works. I admire your ability to go door to door and witness to people. You are a rock for your religion, but that rock is on a sandy foundation. I just wish your abilities were focused on the truth and not the doctrinal whim put out by a select few in Brooklyn. There is enough Grace for all our sins. As you all saw I have a lot of sins.[/quote]

What is better. Following something that you think is true, write about it, find out it is wrong, then change the belief. OR Following something that you think is true, get confronted with a differing opinion, and stubbornly sticking to a previous belief regardless?

You do realize that you quoted our own literature. WE admitted we were wrong right there in print.[/quote]

I do understand what you are saying. For a Religion that makes a lot of money on publishing books that is just too convienient.

That is the issue. You continue to follow the beliefs of people that continue to beleive things then have to go back and change it ALL the time. I might not be able to proove that Jesus is correct or not, but in the end if my beliefs are wrong then nothing happens. I die and stay in the ground forever, or I am reincarnated into something else, or my works will determine where I go. What if I am right, and Jesus is the only way to heaven?

I am going to stick with the beliefs and writings of the Apostles. They actually spent time with Jesus and were taught directly by him. They also died because they believed he is God.

Your founders never met Jesus, and where not taught by him.[/quote]

Our books are completely free of charge. Thank you.[/quote]

How then do you all get the money to pay for everything?[/quote]

Voluntary contributions. No donation plates are ever passed. Ever.[/quote]

What happens if you never give?[/quote]

If we ever run out of funds, we stop the printing. That has never happened in since the starting of the printing back in the late 1800’s.

Average Printing: Awake Magazine - 38+ million a month
Watchtower Magazine - 39+ million a month

Plus millions of books.

I have had a good time conversing with all of you. May God be with you and if you ever need any prayer I am here. I think we have beaten this topic to death.

[quote]BULLD0G700 wrote:
If you guys want a good read, read this book:

Goodbye, Good Men: How Liberals Brought Corruption into the Catholic Church
by Michael S. Rose
Regnery Publishing, Inc.; ISBN: 0895261448
Hardcover - (May, 2002)

The story behind the crisis in the Catholic Church is far worse than you thinkâ?¦

Intimidation, Discrimination, Molestation, Rape, Sexual Promiscuity, and Cover-Ups-Thatâ??s What Going on Inside Many Catholic Seminaries Across the Country

As the controversy surrounding the Catholic Church deepens, many people are asking: How could this have happened? In a new book, Goodbye, Good Men, author Michael Rose presents shocking evidence that the root of the problem extends down to the very place where vocations to the priesthood germinate: the seminary. Rose, who over the course of two years interviewed some 125 seminarians representing fifty dioceses and twenty-two major seminaries, has uncovered a profound spiritual problem inside the seminaries and a sickness of untold proportions.

Goodbye, Good Men: How Liberals Brought Corruption into the Catholic Church exposes the deliberate infiltration by those who wish to change the doctrines, disciplines and mission of the Catholic Church. This radical subculture and its liberal mindset-one that accepts homosexuality and sexual promiscuity in many seminaries-threatens the future of the Catholic Church.

The gay subculture is so prominent at certain seminaries that they have earned nicknames such as: â??Pink Palaceâ?? (St. Maryâ??s Seminary in Baltimore), â??Notre Flameâ?? (Notre Dame Seminary in New Orleans), and â??Theological Closetâ?? (Theological College at the Catholic University of America in Washington, DC). At these and several other seminaries, Rose found shocking examples of how, time and time again, chaste heterosexual seminarians are dismissed as unfit for the priesthood, while promiscuous homosexuals, and even those who have harassed, molested, or even raped other seminarians, are protected or promoted.

For anyone who has asked how pedophiles or predatory homosexual priests could possibly have been tolerated-here is the answer, in the most explosive book on the Catholic Church in a generation.
[/quote]

You want Catholics to read a book bashing Catholicism? And the point?

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,

“…What we can note, though, is that it appears the righteous and the unrighteous CAN go there…”

I alluded to the above statement on page 6 of the original post. I also gave the differences of the righteous and unrighteous, in their entrance to hades. For those not familiar with it and as a review to those who are, I repost it and will give my final discussion on hell following.

"…Hades, though the original word is uncertain. It may have developed from the greek verb idein (to see) with an alpha prefix which has a negating effect (i.e., unseen or invisible). Perhaps it was originally associated with aianes (dreary, horrid) and described a condition full of fear, hopelessness, and evil influences. In the Septuagint hades almost always stands as the translation of the Hebrew sheol, which probably comes either from shaal, a word meaning to ask, examine, investigate, or from shoal, meaning hollow, or hollow hand.

It was particularly associated with the place of the dead. However, this should not give the impression that sheol is identical with grave in the meaning of tomb. If grave is taken as an expression for the state after death, such a translation is quite adequate and close to what the O.T. means with sheol. But that is certainly not so if grave is understood literly as the tomb. In fact, of the more than 50 occurrences of sheol in the O.T. which are translated in the Septuagint by hades, there is not one which needs to be translated tomb or grave, and hardly one which should be. A glance at a concordance will show how utterly different sheol is from grave or tomb.

Sheol is the place where man has to go when dying (Gen. 42:38; 44:29,31). The hope of redemption from sheol is closely connected with the resurrection belief which can be traced through the O.T. Daniel even spoke of a resurrection to life and a ressurection to judgment (Dan. 12:2). From this background later Judaism began to work out a theology which thought of sheol as an interim time and place. Here the unrighteous dead remained under punishment until the resurrection, while the righteous were in another section expecting the resurrection to life (Luke 16:19-31).

As we can see, in the O.T. sheol is the realm of the dead, the afterlife. This O.T. usage of sheol gives the main background for the N.T. meaning of hades. Hades is a place which is down in contrast to heaven which is up (Luke 10:15). It is the place where the soul goes (Acts 2:27), while the body is destroyed (Acts 2:31).

In the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man (Luke 16:15-31), Jesus made a close distinction between the two conditions in hades. Lazarus was in ‘the bosom of Abraham’ (Luke 16:22-23), where he was being comforted, while the rich man was at the ‘place of agony’ (Luke 16:23-24), where he was suffering.

It is remarkable that nowhere in the N.T. is it said that the believer who dies goes to hades; but it is said that he goes to be with the Lord (II Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23). Christ is not in hades today, neither are those who have gone to be with christ.

Hades is the interim prison where the wicked dead are held until judgment day. It should be understood as distinct from Gehenna, which is the lake of fire. In the end both death and hades are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14)…"

I am not here to convince any one to the truth of the Scriptures for that is the works of the Holy Spirit. With a little common sense and a whole lot of hearing of what the Holy Spirit is speaking to our hearts, the truth will be revealed

Hell refers to a place of eternal torment reserved for the unrighteous (Matt. 25:31-46). The Bible teaches that one’s existence does not end at death but continues on forever, either in the presence of God or in a place of punishment. Concerning the state of the lost, we should note the following:

(1) Jesus teaches that there is a place of eternal punishment for those condemned before God (Luke 12:5). It is the terrifying reality of continious punishment, the place of a “fire that never shall be quenched” (Mark 9:43), of “everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41), of “wailing and gnashing of teeth” (Matt. 13:42,50), of binding and outer darkness (Matt. 22:13), and of torment and anguish and separation from heaven (Luke 16:23).

(2) The teaching of the epistles is essentially the same. the apostles speak of a coming judgment of God to inflict vengeance on those who disobey the gospel (II Thes. 1:5-9), of a separation from the presence and glory of the Lord (II Thes. 1:9), and of the destruction of God’s enemies (Phil. 3:18-19).

(3) The Bible teaches that judgment on evildoers is certain. The main idea is condemnation, suffering, and separation from God with no time limit (Dan. 12:2). Christians may find this doctrine unpleasent or hard to understand. Yet, we must submit to the authority of God’s Word and trust God’s decision and justice.

(4) We must keep foremost in our thinking that God sent His Son to die in order that no one need perish (John 3:16). It is not God’s intention or desire to send anyone to hell (II Pet. 3:9). Those who enter hell do so by resisting the salvation provided by God (Rom. 1:16-2:10). The fact and reality of hell should cause all of God’s people to hate sin fervently, to seek continually the salvation of the lost, and to warn everyone of the future righteous judgment of God.

Revelation 20:11-15 “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”[/quote]

I know that most people have firm belief in the hell-fire doctrine. However, may I point out one thing to you blacksheep?

Jer 32:35 - American Standand

“They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.”

The idea of passing their children through the fire had never come up into God’s mind. It was a detestable thing to him.

Why would he do this on a GRAND scale, if it disgusted him even amongst one group of people?

Just something to think about.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

I tried addressing your questions. You didn’t like the response. Don’t worry, I am fine. I have researched much on my own, and will continue to do such. I hope you continue to do the same.[/quote]

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you’re just confused and tried to address someone else’s points. However, I laid out some very extensive scripture which spoke to the fact that there was and is a real hell where you are able to feel torment. What did you respond with? You didn’t.

I then put forth the passage on the rich man who passed away and was in hell and felt he was being tormented. I asked you to respond. Did you? No.

Which means that you are going to dodge that as well. At least you’re consistent.

You are experienced enough to know which questions to dodge that I’ll give you. You’ve tried to derail every single point that I’ve made regarding hell and you know it. However, you are not experienced enough to yet understand the truth when it is staring you in the face.

I’ve had “debates” with others of your belief. As long as they can set the tone and direct the argument they can usually continue to twist the scripture into something that is at least palatable to the average person. As soon as someone pushes them with Biblical facts (as I did you) they walk away.

I would suggest that you keep walking, no mature Christian is going to allow you to get away with this nonsense. Honestly I pitty those who are foolish enough to let people like you in the door.

There is a time to debate and also a time to simply slam the door on the sort of doctrine that you are pushing.

[b]2 John 10 & 11:

“If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite that person into your home or give any kind of encouragement. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.”[/b]

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]blacksheep wrote:

I know that most people have firm belief in the hell-fire doctrine. However, may I point out one thing to you blacksheep?

Jer 32:35 - American Standand

“They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.”

The idea of passing their children through the fire had never come up into God’s mind. It was a detestable thing to him.

Why would he do this on a GRAND scale, if it disgusted him even amongst one group of people?

Just something to think about.
[/quote]

  1. Is that really your exegessis on that Passage?
  2. You are making a logical fallacy in making that comparison (I.E. a false dilemma).
    I am not supporting one position or the other, but to compare the idea of a ritual sacrifice
    to a punishment from God is a very big stretch.

Wisdom is proved righteous by its actions.

Wisdom is proved righteous by its actions.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

I tried addressing your questions. You didn’t like the response. Don’t worry, I am fine. I have researched much on my own, and will continue to do such. I hope you continue to do the same.[/quote]

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you’re just confused and tried to address someone else’s points. However, I laid out some very extensive scripture which spoke to the fact that there was and is a real hell where you are able to feel torment. What did you respond with? You didn’t.

I then put forth the passage on the rich man who passed away and was in hell and felt he was being tormented. I asked you to respond. Did you? No.

Which means that you are going to dodge that as well. At least you’re consistent.

You are experienced enough to know which questions to dodge that I’ll give you. You’ve tried to derail every single point that I’ve made regarding hell and you know it. However, you are not experienced enough to yet understand the truth when it is staring you in the face.

I’ve had “debates” with others of your belief. As long as they can set the tone and direct the argument they can usually continue to twist the scripture into something that is at least palatable to the average person. As soon as someone pushes them with Biblical facts (as I did you) they walk away.

I would suggest that you keep walking, no mature Christian is going to allow you to get away with this nonsense. Honestly I pitty those who are foolish enough to let people like you in the door.

There is a time to debate and also a time to simply slam the door on the sort of doctrine that you are pushing.

[b]2 John 10 & 11:

“If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite that person into your home or give any kind of encouragement. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.”[/b][/quote]

“Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt, so as to know how you ought to give an answer to each one.”

That is all I am trying to do.

1 â??Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heavenâ?? (Matthew 6:1).

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law (Romans 3:21-28).

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:20-21).

If sin is the manifestation of our unrighteousness and we can be saved only through a righteousness not our ownâ??the righteousness of Christâ??then the ultimate sin is self-righteousness. Jesus did not reject sinners who came to Him for mercy and salvation; He rejected those who were too righteous (in their own eyes) to need grace. Jesus came to save sinners and not to save those righteous in their own eyes. No one is too lost to save; there are only those too good to save. In the Gospels, those who thought themselves most righteous were the ones condemned by our Lord as wicked and unrighteous.

If we are among those who have acknowledged our sin and trusted in the righteousness of Christ for our salvation, the righteousness of God is one of the great and comforting truths we should embrace. The justice of God means that when He establishes His kingdom on earth, it will be a kingdom characterized by justice. He will judge men in righteousness, and He will reign in righteousness.

We need not fret over the wicked of our day who seem to be getting away with sin. If we love righteousness, we most certainly dare not envy the wicked, whose day of judgment awaits them (see Psalm 37; 73). Their day of judgment is rapidly coming upon them, and justice will prevail.

If we realize that true righteousness is not to be judged according to external, legalistic standards and that judgment belongs to God, we dare not occupy ourselves in judging others (Matthew 7:1). We should also realize that judgment begins at the house of God, and thus we should be quick to judge ourselves and to avoid those sins which are an offense to the righteousness of God (see 1 Peter 4:17; 1 Corinthians 11:31).

The doctrine of the righteousness of God means that we, as the children of God (if you are a Christian), should seek to imitate our heavenly Father (5:48). We should not seek to find revenge against those who sin against us, but leave vengeance to God (Romans 12:17-21). Rather than seeking to get even, let us suffer the injustice of men, even as our Lord Jesus, that God might even bring our enemies to repentance and salvation (Matthew 5:43-44; 1 Peter 2:18-25). And let us pray, as our Lord instructed us, that the day when righteousness reigns may come:

10 â??Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heavenâ?? (Matthew 6:10).

My heart aches for the unbeleiver in who you are Lord Jesus. Reveal you true self to the entire Earth. Holy, Holy, is the Lord Almight who sits upon the throne. In the End of Times Jesus will sit upon that Throne.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
1 â??Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heavenâ?? (Matthew 6:1).

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law (Romans 3:21-28).

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:20-21).

If sin is the manifestation of our unrighteousness and we can be saved only through a righteousness not our ownâ??the righteousness of Christâ??then the ultimate sin is self-righteousness. Jesus did not reject sinners who came to Him for mercy and salvation; He rejected those who were too righteous (in their own eyes) to need grace. Jesus came to save sinners and not to save those righteous in their own eyes. No one is too lost to save; there are only those too good to save. In the Gospels, those who thought themselves most righteous were the ones condemned by our Lord as wicked and unrighteous.[/quote]

Absolutely agree. Great scriptures.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Wisdom is proved righteous by its actions. [/quote]

Righteousness can not be gained by actions only given to us by Grace from God. God is the only righteous and only he can give righteousness to us being a sinner.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Wisdom is proved righteous by its actions. [/quote]

Righteousness can not be gained by actions only given to us by Grace from God. God is the only righteous and only he can give righteousness to us being a sinner.[/quote]

Those were Jesus words, not mine.

Stated,
"The idea of passing their children through the fire had never come up into God’s mind. It was a detestable thing to him.

Why would he do this on a GRAND scale, if it disgusted him even amongst one group of people?

Just something to think about."

The abomination was that Judah, in her backslidden state, were following suit of the Canaanites who sacrificed infants to their gods as part of their religious rites, a detestable practice which was strictly forbidden by God under the Mosaic Law (Lev. 18:21; 20:2-5).

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Wisdom is proved righteous by its actions. [/quote]

Righteousness can not be gained by actions only given to us by Grace from God. God is the only righteous and only he can give righteousness to us being a sinner.[/quote]

Those were Jesus words, not mine.[/quote]

As I stated God is the only righteous person, and he is Jesus so there you go. Humans can not be righteous in our sinful state.

Pat the point is that they were showing things bashing his religion, which semm small compared to what’s going on in the Catholic Church.

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,
"The idea of passing their children through the fire had never come up into God’s mind. It was a detestable thing to him.

Why would he do this on a GRAND scale, if it disgusted him even amongst one group of people?

Just something to think about."

The abomination was that Judah, in her backslidden state, were following suit of the Canaanites who sacrificed infants to their gods as part of their religious rites, a detestable practice which was strictly forbidden by God under the Mosaic Law (Lev. 18:21; 20:2-5).[/quote]

How can it be forbidden under God’s Law, and then God have the same practice set up for sinners in the form of a fiery torment? These are things to reason on.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

I tried addressing your questions. You didn’t like the response. Don’t worry, I am fine. I have researched much on my own, and will continue to do such. I hope you continue to do the same.[/quote]

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you’re just confused and tried to address someone else’s points. However, I laid out some very extensive scripture which spoke to the fact that there was and is a real hell where you are able to feel torment. What did you respond with? You didn’t.

I then put forth the passage on the rich man who passed away and was in hell and felt he was being tormented. I asked you to respond. Did you? No.

Which means that you are going to dodge that as well. At least you’re consistent.

You are experienced enough to know which questions to dodge that I’ll give you. You’ve tried to derail every single point that I’ve made regarding hell and you know it. However, you are not experienced enough to yet understand the truth when it is staring you in the face.

I’ve had “debates” with others of your belief. As long as they can set the tone and direct the argument they can usually continue to twist the scripture into something that is at least palatable to the average person. As soon as someone pushes them with Biblical facts (as I did you) they walk away.

I would suggest that you keep walking, no mature Christian is going to allow you to get away with this nonsense. Honestly I pitty those who are foolish enough to let people like you in the door.

There is a time to debate and also a time to simply slam the door on the sort of doctrine that you are pushing.

[b]2 John 10 & 11:

“If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite that person into your home or give any kind of encouragement. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.”[/b][/quote]

“Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt, so as to know how you ought to give an answer to each one.”

That is all I am trying to do.
[/quote]

You have been deceived and now you are deceiving others with what you believe to be true doctrine.