The Church or The Bible

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

All we have found out so far is that hell can contain both righteous (Jesus) and the rich man appears to be unrighteous so it can include those as well.[/quote]

Wrong again.

Christ died for our sins, you do understand that don’t you? He took the punishment upon himself for all who would believe.

Do you understand that he is the son of God and was there from the beginning before creation? Do you understand Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as the trinity?

By the way don’t you think that my post above is interesting reading?

[/quote]

If you do not wish to discuss it, we don’t have to. We can get to other subjects later, including the trinity, but the current issue you had was with hell. [/quote]

You’re confused again, I have no “issue” with hell. I fully understand what it is and basically what happens to those who are sent there, that is they suffer eternal torment.

Now about this interesting article:

http://bibleprobe.com/...ovahwitness.htm

"The Jehovah Witness Movement was begun by Charles Taze Russell. Born in 1852, Russell founded the Zion’s Watch Tower in 1879 and later incorporated the group under the name “Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society” in 1884.

Russell born on February 16, 1852. He was raised a Presbyterian, but later joined the Congregational Church because of its “more liberal views.” His mother died when he was 9, the year the Civil War began.

As a youth Russell seems to have been obsessed with hellfire and torment; he also apparently saw himself as the instrument of men’s salvation. An early associate of Russell’s tells us that 14-year-old Charles Taze would go out Saturday nights “to where men gathered. . .to loaf, and would write Bible texts on the sidewalk with colored chalk . . . .He hoped to attract their attention, so that they might accept Christ and avoid being lost and going to eternal torment.” [Faith, p. 17] . When Russell was 17, he suffered a revulsion against the concept eternal punishment and against the doctrine of predestination.

Russell began his teachings shortly after wandering into a religious meeting where Jonas Wendell was teaching “Second Adventism” in 1870. Charles Russell subsequently began his own movement with his father and a small group of others after forming a small Bible study in Allegheny, Pennsylvania. From 1870 through 1875 the Russell family, and others, participated in an analytical study of both the Bible and the origins of Christian doctrine, creed, and tradition. “Millerite” Adventist ministers George Storrs, and George Stetson, were also closely involved. Russell’s group believed they had found significant errors in common Christian belief. As a result of such study, the Russell family believed they had gained a clearer understanding of true Christianity, and were re-baptized in 1874. His personal “message” began with his rejection of the Christian doctrine of Hell, and he later added many physical and spiritually dangerous doctrines of his own making. Ultimately, Russell rejected nearly every other Christian doctrine, and published his bizarre teachings in a 6-volume series under the name “Studies in the Scriptures”.

Several Protestant denominations have either formed around, or adopted some style of, Pastor Russell’s views, among them the Worldwide Church of God, the Concordant Publishing Concern, the Assemblies of Yahweh. Among the numerous Bible Student off-shoot groups include the Pastoral Bible Institute, the Layman’s Home Missionary Movement and others.

Charles Taze Russell was a proven liar, who claimed in a New York Court in 1913, that he was an ordained pastor, and that he was well versed in both Greek and Latin. But when pressed on the stand in Court, he could not read anything from the Greek alphabet. He also could show no proof of any ordination from any mainline church. In his own defense, Russell said he believed that his ordination was “of God” according to the biblical pattern, not requiring any denominational approval, and that his annual election as “Pastor” by over 1,200 congregations worldwide constituted him as “ordained”, or chosen, to be a minister of the gospel. Russell died on October 31, 1916 while traveling on a train near Pampa, Texas. His successor, Joseph F. Rutherford began revising Russell’s doctrine.

In 1920, Rutherford began speaking to large crowds falsely telling them that millions of people then living would never die. Between 1921 and 1941, Rutherford wrote twenty books and numerous pamphlets, beginning with his first publication, known as “Harp of God”.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
ZEB,

Will you help answer some questions for me about this topic?[/quote]

I thought that’s what I’ve been doing, but you seem jus a tad resistant.
[/quote]

What Greek word is translated ‘hell’?

What type of person goes to hell?

What is the ‘lake of fire’?[/quote]

First you have to explain to me why the rich man was in such torment in HELL.
[/quote]

Well, it’s hot, duh.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

All we have found out so far is that hell can contain both righteous (Jesus) and the rich man appears to be unrighteous so it can include those as well.[/quote]

Wrong again.

Christ died for our sins, you do understand that don’t you? He took the punishment upon himself for all who would believe.

Do you understand that he is the son of God and was there from the beginning before creation? Do you understand Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as the trinity?

By the way don’t you think that my post above is interesting reading?

[/quote]

If you do not wish to discuss it, we don’t have to. We can get to other subjects later, including the trinity, but the current issue you had was with hell. [/quote]

You’re confused again, I have no “issue” with hell. I fully understand what it is and basically what happens to those who are sent there, that is they suffer eternal torment.

Now about this interesting article:

http://bibleprobe.com/...ovahwitness.htm

"The Jehovah Witness Movement was begun by Charles Taze Russell. Born in 1852, Russell founded the Zion’s Watch Tower in 1879 and later incorporated the group under the name “Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society” in 1884.

Russell born on February 16, 1852. He was raised a Presbyterian, but later joined the Congregational Church because of its “more liberal views.” His mother died when he was 9, the year the Civil War began.

As a youth Russell seems to have been obsessed with hellfire and torment; he also apparently saw himself as the instrument of men’s salvation. An early associate of Russell’s tells us that 14-year-old Charles Taze would go out Saturday nights “to where men gathered. . .to loaf, and would write Bible texts on the sidewalk with colored chalk . . . .He hoped to attract their attention, so that they might accept Christ and avoid being lost and going to eternal torment.” [Faith, p. 17] . When Russell was 17, he suffered a revulsion against the concept eternal punishment and against the doctrine of predestination.

Russell began his teachings shortly after wandering into a religious meeting where Jonas Wendell was teaching “Second Adventism” in 1870. Charles Russell subsequently began his own movement with his father and a small group of others after forming a small Bible study in Allegheny, Pennsylvania. From 1870 through 1875 the Russell family, and others, participated in an analytical study of both the Bible and the origins of Christian doctrine, creed, and tradition. “Millerite” Adventist ministers George Storrs, and George Stetson, were also closely involved. Russell’s group believed they had found significant errors in common Christian belief. As a result of such study, the Russell family believed they had gained a clearer understanding of true Christianity, and were re-baptized in 1874. His personal “message” began with his rejection of the Christian doctrine of Hell, and he later added many physical and spiritually dangerous doctrines of his own making. Ultimately, Russell rejected nearly every other Christian doctrine, and published his bizarre teachings in a 6-volume series under the name “Studies in the Scriptures”.

Several Protestant denominations have either formed around, or adopted some style of, Pastor Russell’s views, among them the Worldwide Church of God, the Concordant Publishing Concern, the Assemblies of Yahweh. Among the numerous Bible Student off-shoot groups include the Pastoral Bible Institute, the Layman’s Home Missionary Movement and others.

Charles Taze Russell was a proven liar, who claimed in a New York Court in 1913, that he was an ordained pastor, and that he was well versed in both Greek and Latin. But when pressed on the stand in Court, he could not read anything from the Greek alphabet. He also could show no proof of any ordination from any mainline church. In his own defense, Russell said he believed that his ordination was “of God” according to the biblical pattern, not requiring any denominational approval, and that his annual election as “Pastor” by over 1,200 congregations worldwide constituted him as “ordained”, or chosen, to be a minister of the gospel. Russell died on October 31, 1916 while traveling on a train near Pampa, Texas. His successor, Joseph F. Rutherford began revising Russell’s doctrine.

In 1920, Rutherford began speaking to large crowds falsely telling them that millions of people then living would never die. Between 1921 and 1941, Rutherford wrote twenty books and numerous pamphlets, beginning with his first publication, known as “Harp of God”.

[/quote]

Yeah how about it. What do you want me to do? Defend an article you found on the internet?

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
ZEB,

Will you help answer some questions for me about this topic?[/quote]

I thought that’s what I’ve been doing, but you seem jus a tad resistant.
[/quote]

What Greek word is translated ‘hell’?

What type of person goes to hell?

What is the ‘lake of fire’?[/quote]

First you have to explain to me why the rich man was in such torment in HELL.
[/quote]

Well, it’s hot, duh.[/quote]

You sure that is the reason? I thought it was the gnashing of teeth? Does that mean the demons are chewing on the lost? Sarcasim

If anyone is interested in having an intelligent discussion regarding what the Bible actually says and not derailing conversations with personal religious attacks and off topic conversations, I would love that. A few here have been great about that, and others, not so great.

How about defend an article written by a Leader. I understand the doctrine has changed on this.

Jehovah Witnesses believed for about 50 years of their history that the great pyramid of Giza, in Egypt was the second witness for God after the Bible? “Jehovah’s Witnesses proclaimers of God’s Kingdom” p. 200).

This is the issue that some of us have. The doctrine of your church seems to change at a drop of a hat. Have you looked at the doctinal history of your church? We are trying to show you the truth man. We might not be able to change your mind. I would say that would be ok, but it is not we do not want you to stand before God/Jehovah/Yahweh/Jesus and he say depart from me I never knew you. This is about a relationship and not about works. I admire your ability to go door to door and witness to people. You are a rock for your religion, but that rock is on a sandy foundation. I just wish your abilities were focused on the truth and not the doctrinal whim put out by a select few in Brooklyn. There is enough Grace for all our sins. As you all saw I have a lot of sins.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
How about defend an article written by a Leader. I understand the doctrine has changed on this.

Jehovah Witnesses believed for about 50 years of their history that the great pyramid of Giza, in Egypt was the second witness for God after the Bible? “Jehovah’s Witnesses proclaimers of God’s Kingdom” p. 200).

This is the issue that some of us have. The doctrine of your church seems to change at a drop of a hat. Have you looked at the doctinal history of your church? We are trying to show you the truth man. We might not be able to change your mind. I would say that would be ok, but it is not we do not want you to stand before God/Jehovah/Yahweh/Jesus and he say depart from me I never knew you. This is about a relationship and not about works. I admire your ability to go door to door and witness to people. You are a rock for your religion, but that rock is on a sandy foundation. I just wish your abilities were focused on the truth and not the doctrinal whim put out by a select few in Brooklyn. There is enough Grace for all our sins. As you all saw I have a lot of sins.[/quote]

What is better. Following something that you think is true, write about it, find out it is wrong, then change the belief. OR Following something that you think is true, get confronted with a differing opinion, and stubbornly sticking to a previous belief regardless?

You do realize that you quoted our own literature. WE admitted we were wrong right there in print.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
We are trying to show you the truth man.
[/quote]

Realize that the “we” you speak of aren’t even in one mind, or in agreement. - John 17:21

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

All we have found out so far is that hell can contain both righteous (Jesus) and the rich man appears to be unrighteous so it can include those as well.[/quote]

Wrong again.

Christ died for our sins, you do understand that don’t you? He took the punishment upon himself for all who would believe.

Do you understand that he is the son of God and was there from the beginning before creation? Do you understand Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as the trinity?

By the way don’t you think that my post above is interesting reading?

[/quote]

If you do not wish to discuss it, we don’t have to. We can get to other subjects later, including the trinity, but the current issue you had was with hell. [/quote]

You’re confused again, I have no “issue” with hell. I fully understand what it is and basically what happens to those who are sent there, that is they suffer eternal torment.

Now about this interesting article:

http://bibleprobe.com/...ovahwitness.htm

"The Jehovah Witness Movement was begun by Charles Taze Russell. Born in 1852, Russell founded the Zion’s Watch Tower in 1879 and later incorporated the group under the name “Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society” in 1884.

Russell born on February 16, 1852. He was raised a Presbyterian, but later joined the Congregational Church because of its “more liberal views.” His mother died when he was 9, the year the Civil War began.

As a youth Russell seems to have been obsessed with hellfire and torment; he also apparently saw himself as the instrument of men’s salvation. An early associate of Russell’s tells us that 14-year-old Charles Taze would go out Saturday nights “to where men gathered. . .to loaf, and would write Bible texts on the sidewalk with colored chalk . . . .He hoped to attract their attention, so that they might accept Christ and avoid being lost and going to eternal torment.” [Faith, p. 17] . When Russell was 17, he suffered a revulsion against the concept eternal punishment and against the doctrine of predestination.

Russell began his teachings shortly after wandering into a religious meeting where Jonas Wendell was teaching “Second Adventism” in 1870. Charles Russell subsequently began his own movement with his father and a small group of others after forming a small Bible study in Allegheny, Pennsylvania. From 1870 through 1875 the Russell family, and others, participated in an analytical study of both the Bible and the origins of Christian doctrine, creed, and tradition. “Millerite” Adventist ministers George Storrs, and George Stetson, were also closely involved. Russell’s group believed they had found significant errors in common Christian belief. As a result of such study, the Russell family believed they had gained a clearer understanding of true Christianity, and were re-baptized in 1874. His personal “message” began with his rejection of the Christian doctrine of Hell, and he later added many physical and spiritually dangerous doctrines of his own making. Ultimately, Russell rejected nearly every other Christian doctrine, and published his bizarre teachings in a 6-volume series under the name “Studies in the Scriptures”.

Several Protestant denominations have either formed around, or adopted some style of, Pastor Russell’s views, among them the Worldwide Church of God, the Concordant Publishing Concern, the Assemblies of Yahweh. Among the numerous Bible Student off-shoot groups include the Pastoral Bible Institute, the Layman’s Home Missionary Movement and others.

Charles Taze Russell was a proven liar, who claimed in a New York Court in 1913, that he was an ordained pastor, and that he was well versed in both Greek and Latin. But when pressed on the stand in Court, he could not read anything from the Greek alphabet. He also could show no proof of any ordination from any mainline church. In his own defense, Russell said he believed that his ordination was “of God” according to the biblical pattern, not requiring any denominational approval, and that his annual election as “Pastor” by over 1,200 congregations worldwide constituted him as “ordained”, or chosen, to be a minister of the gospel. Russell died on October 31, 1916 while traveling on a train near Pampa, Texas. His successor, Joseph F. Rutherford began revising Russell’s doctrine.

In 1920, Rutherford began speaking to large crowds falsely telling them that millions of people then living would never die. Between 1921 and 1941, Rutherford wrote twenty books and numerous pamphlets, beginning with his first publication, known as “Harp of God”.

[/quote]

Yeah how about it. What do you want me to do? Defend an article you found on the internet? [/quote]

Don’t act like it has no merit because it was found on the Internet. Most of the hogwash that you are perpetuating can also be found on the Internet.

If you’d like to dodge this article as you have every other question that I’ve posed go ahead. If you’d like to tell me your thoughts on this article I’d like to read them.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
How about defend an article written by a Leader. I understand the doctrine has changed on this.

Jehovah Witnesses believed for about 50 years of their history that the great pyramid of Giza, in Egypt was the second witness for God after the Bible? “Jehovah’s Witnesses proclaimers of God’s Kingdom” p. 200).

This is the issue that some of us have. The doctrine of your church seems to change at a drop of a hat. Have you looked at the doctinal history of your church? We are trying to show you the truth man. We might not be able to change your mind. I would say that would be ok, but it is not we do not want you to stand before God/Jehovah/Yahweh/Jesus and he say depart from me I never knew you. This is about a relationship and not about works. I admire your ability to go door to door and witness to people. You are a rock for your religion, but that rock is on a sandy foundation. I just wish your abilities were focused on the truth and not the doctrinal whim put out by a select few in Brooklyn. There is enough Grace for all our sins. As you all saw I have a lot of sins.[/quote]

What is better. Following something that you think is true, write about it, find out it is wrong, then change the belief. OR Following something that you think is true, get confronted with a differing opinion, and stubbornly sticking to a previous belief regardless?

You do realize that you quoted our own literature. WE admitted we were wrong right there in print.[/quote]

I do understand what you are saying. For a Religion that makes a lot of money on publishing books that is just too convienient.

That is the issue. You continue to follow the beliefs of people that continue to beleive things then have to go back and change it ALL the time. I might not be able to proove that Jesus is correct or not, but in the end if my beliefs are wrong then nothing happens. I die and stay in the ground forever, or I am reincarnated into something else, or my works will determine where I go. What if I am right, and Jesus is the only way to heaven?

I am going to stick with the beliefs and writings of the Apostles. They actually spent time with Jesus and were taught directly by him. They also died because they believed he is God.

Your founders never met Jesus, and where not taught by him.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

All we have found out so far is that hell can contain both righteous (Jesus) and the rich man appears to be unrighteous so it can include those as well.[/quote]

Wrong again.

Christ died for our sins, you do understand that don’t you? He took the punishment upon himself for all who would believe.

Do you understand that he is the son of God and was there from the beginning before creation? Do you understand Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as the trinity?

By the way don’t you think that my post above is interesting reading?

[/quote]

If you do not wish to discuss it, we don’t have to. We can get to other subjects later, including the trinity, but the current issue you had was with hell. [/quote]

You’re confused again, I have no “issue” with hell. I fully understand what it is and basically what happens to those who are sent there, that is they suffer eternal torment.

Now about this interesting article:

http://bibleprobe.com/...ovahwitness.htm

"The Jehovah Witness Movement was begun by Charles Taze Russell. Born in 1852, Russell founded the Zion’s Watch Tower in 1879 and later incorporated the group under the name “Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society” in 1884.

Russell born on February 16, 1852. He was raised a Presbyterian, but later joined the Congregational Church because of its “more liberal views.” His mother died when he was 9, the year the Civil War began.

As a youth Russell seems to have been obsessed with hellfire and torment; he also apparently saw himself as the instrument of men’s salvation. An early associate of Russell’s tells us that 14-year-old Charles Taze would go out Saturday nights “to where men gathered. . .to loaf, and would write Bible texts on the sidewalk with colored chalk . . . .He hoped to attract their attention, so that they might accept Christ and avoid being lost and going to eternal torment.” [Faith, p. 17] . When Russell was 17, he suffered a revulsion against the concept eternal punishment and against the doctrine of predestination.

Russell began his teachings shortly after wandering into a religious meeting where Jonas Wendell was teaching “Second Adventism” in 1870. Charles Russell subsequently began his own movement with his father and a small group of others after forming a small Bible study in Allegheny, Pennsylvania. From 1870 through 1875 the Russell family, and others, participated in an analytical study of both the Bible and the origins of Christian doctrine, creed, and tradition. “Millerite” Adventist ministers George Storrs, and George Stetson, were also closely involved. Russell’s group believed they had found significant errors in common Christian belief. As a result of such study, the Russell family believed they had gained a clearer understanding of true Christianity, and were re-baptized in 1874. His personal “message” began with his rejection of the Christian doctrine of Hell, and he later added many physical and spiritually dangerous doctrines of his own making. Ultimately, Russell rejected nearly every other Christian doctrine, and published his bizarre teachings in a 6-volume series under the name “Studies in the Scriptures”.

Several Protestant denominations have either formed around, or adopted some style of, Pastor Russell’s views, among them the Worldwide Church of God, the Concordant Publishing Concern, the Assemblies of Yahweh. Among the numerous Bible Student off-shoot groups include the Pastoral Bible Institute, the Layman’s Home Missionary Movement and others.

Charles Taze Russell was a proven liar, who claimed in a New York Court in 1913, that he was an ordained pastor, and that he was well versed in both Greek and Latin. But when pressed on the stand in Court, he could not read anything from the Greek alphabet. He also could show no proof of any ordination from any mainline church. In his own defense, Russell said he believed that his ordination was “of God” according to the biblical pattern, not requiring any denominational approval, and that his annual election as “Pastor” by over 1,200 congregations worldwide constituted him as “ordained”, or chosen, to be a minister of the gospel. Russell died on October 31, 1916 while traveling on a train near Pampa, Texas. His successor, Joseph F. Rutherford began revising Russell’s doctrine.

In 1920, Rutherford began speaking to large crowds falsely telling them that millions of people then living would never die. Between 1921 and 1941, Rutherford wrote twenty books and numerous pamphlets, beginning with his first publication, known as “Harp of God”.

[/quote]

Yeah how about it. What do you want me to do? Defend an article you found on the internet? [/quote]

Don’t act like it has no merit because it was found on the Internet. Most of the hogwash that you are perpetuating can also be found on the Internet.

If you’d like to dodge this article as you have every other question that I’ve posed go ahead. If you’d like to tell me your thoughts on this article I’d like to read them.[/quote]

I tried addressing your questions. You didn’t like the response. Don’t worry, I am fine. I have researched much on my own, and will continue to do such. I hope you continue to do the same.

I will not respond any further than I already have on your article. There is no point. I am experienced enough to know when a discussion is being derailed.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
How about defend an article written by a Leader. I understand the doctrine has changed on this.

Jehovah Witnesses believed for about 50 years of their history that the great pyramid of Giza, in Egypt was the second witness for God after the Bible? “Jehovah’s Witnesses proclaimers of God’s Kingdom” p. 200).

This is the issue that some of us have. The doctrine of your church seems to change at a drop of a hat. Have you looked at the doctinal history of your church? We are trying to show you the truth man. We might not be able to change your mind. I would say that would be ok, but it is not we do not want you to stand before God/Jehovah/Yahweh/Jesus and he say depart from me I never knew you. This is about a relationship and not about works. I admire your ability to go door to door and witness to people. You are a rock for your religion, but that rock is on a sandy foundation. I just wish your abilities were focused on the truth and not the doctrinal whim put out by a select few in Brooklyn. There is enough Grace for all our sins. As you all saw I have a lot of sins.[/quote]

What is better. Following something that you think is true, write about it, find out it is wrong, then change the belief. OR Following something that you think is true, get confronted with a differing opinion, and stubbornly sticking to a previous belief regardless?

You do realize that you quoted our own literature. WE admitted we were wrong right there in print.[/quote]

I do understand what you are saying. For a Religion that makes a lot of money on publishing books that is just too convienient.

That is the issue. You continue to follow the beliefs of people that continue to beleive things then have to go back and change it ALL the time. I might not be able to proove that Jesus is correct or not, but in the end if my beliefs are wrong then nothing happens. I die and stay in the ground forever, or I am reincarnated into something else, or my works will determine where I go. What if I am right, and Jesus is the only way to heaven?

I am going to stick with the beliefs and writings of the Apostles. They actually spent time with Jesus and were taught directly by him. They also died because they believed he is God.

Your founders never met Jesus, and where not taught by him.[/quote]

Our books are completely free of charge. Thank you.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
We are trying to show you the truth man.
[/quote]

Realize that the “we” you speak of aren’t even in one mind, or in agreement. - John 17:21
[/quote]

Good call, but our core beliefs are still the same. Did we not put up the Apostles Creed for you? We split hairs on a regular basis on small matters, but those small matters do not determine salvation. We worship differently but we worship the same God.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
We are trying to show you the truth man.
[/quote]

Realize that the “we” you speak of aren’t even in one mind, or in agreement. - John 17:21
[/quote]

Good call, but our core beliefs are still the same. Did we not put up the Apostles Creed for you? We split hairs on a regular basis on small matters, but those small matters do not determine salvation. We worship differently but we worship the same God.[/quote]

Jehovah’s Witness, all 7 million of them, believe and teach the same thing.

Stated,

“…What we can note, though, is that it appears the righteous and the unrighteous CAN go there…”

I alluded to the above statement on page 6 of the original post. I also gave the differences of the righteous and unrighteous, in their entrance to hades. For those not familiar with it and as a review to those who are, I repost it and will give my final discussion on hell following.

"…Hades, though the original word is uncertain. It may have developed from the greek verb idein (to see) with an alpha prefix which has a negating effect (i.e., unseen or invisible). Perhaps it was originally associated with aianes (dreary, horrid) and described a condition full of fear, hopelessness, and evil influences. In the Septuagint hades almost always stands as the translation of the Hebrew sheol, which probably comes either from shaal, a word meaning to ask, examine, investigate, or from shoal, meaning hollow, or hollow hand.

It was particularly associated with the place of the dead. However, this should not give the impression that sheol is identical with grave in the meaning of tomb. If grave is taken as an expression for the state after death, such a translation is quite adequate and close to what the O.T. means with sheol. But that is certainly not so if grave is understood literly as the tomb. In fact, of the more than 50 occurrences of sheol in the O.T. which are translated in the Septuagint by hades, there is not one which needs to be translated tomb or grave, and hardly one which should be. A glance at a concordance will show how utterly different sheol is from grave or tomb.

Sheol is the place where man has to go when dying (Gen. 42:38; 44:29,31). The hope of redemption from sheol is closely connected with the resurrection belief which can be traced through the O.T. Daniel even spoke of a resurrection to life and a ressurection to judgment (Dan. 12:2). From this background later Judaism began to work out a theology which thought of sheol as an interim time and place. Here the unrighteous dead remained under punishment until the resurrection, while the righteous were in another section expecting the resurrection to life (Luke 16:19-31).

As we can see, in the O.T. sheol is the realm of the dead, the afterlife. This O.T. usage of sheol gives the main background for the N.T. meaning of hades. Hades is a place which is down in contrast to heaven which is up (Luke 10:15). It is the place where the soul goes (Acts 2:27), while the body is destroyed (Acts 2:31).

In the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man (Luke 16:15-31), Jesus made a close distinction between the two conditions in hades. Lazarus was in ‘the bosom of Abraham’ (Luke 16:22-23), where he was being comforted, while the rich man was at the ‘place of agony’ (Luke 16:23-24), where he was suffering.

It is remarkable that nowhere in the N.T. is it said that the believer who dies goes to hades; but it is said that he goes to be with the Lord (II Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23). Christ is not in hades today, neither are those who have gone to be with christ.

Hades is the interim prison where the wicked dead are held until judgment day. It should be understood as distinct from Gehenna, which is the lake of fire. In the end both death and hades are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14)…"

I am not here to convince any one to the truth of the Scriptures for that is the works of the Holy Spirit. With a little common sense and a whole lot of hearing of what the Holy Spirit is speaking to our hearts, the truth will be revealed

Hell refers to a place of eternal torment reserved for the unrighteous (Matt. 25:31-46). The Bible teaches that one’s existence does not end at death but continues on forever, either in the presence of God or in a place of punishment. Concerning the state of the lost, we should note the following:

(1) Jesus teaches that there is a place of eternal punishment for those condemned before God (Luke 12:5). It is the terrifying reality of continious punishment, the place of a “fire that never shall be quenched” (Mark 9:43), of “everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41), of “wailing and gnashing of teeth” (Matt. 13:42,50), of binding and outer darkness (Matt. 22:13), and of torment and anguish and separation from heaven (Luke 16:23).

(2) The teaching of the epistles is essentially the same. the apostles speak of a coming judgment of God to inflict vengeance on those who disobey the gospel (II Thes. 1:5-9), of a separation from the presence and glory of the Lord (II Thes. 1:9), and of the destruction of God’s enemies (Phil. 3:18-19).

(3) The Bible teaches that judgment on evildoers is certain. The main idea is condemnation, suffering, and separation from God with no time limit (Dan. 12:2). Christians may find this doctrine unpleasent or hard to understand. Yet, we must submit to the authority of God’s Word and trust God’s decision and justice.

(4) We must keep foremost in our thinking that God sent His Son to die in order that no one need perish (John 3:16). It is not God’s intention or desire to send anyone to hell (II Pet. 3:9). Those who enter hell do so by resisting the salvation provided by God (Rom. 1:16-2:10). The fact and reality of hell should cause all of God’s people to hate sin fervently, to seek continually the salvation of the lost, and to warn everyone of the future righteous judgment of God.

Revelation 20:11-15 “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
How about defend an article written by a Leader. I understand the doctrine has changed on this.

Jehovah Witnesses believed for about 50 years of their history that the great pyramid of Giza, in Egypt was the second witness for God after the Bible? “Jehovah’s Witnesses proclaimers of God’s Kingdom” p. 200).

This is the issue that some of us have. The doctrine of your church seems to change at a drop of a hat. Have you looked at the doctinal history of your church? We are trying to show you the truth man. We might not be able to change your mind. I would say that would be ok, but it is not we do not want you to stand before God/Jehovah/Yahweh/Jesus and he say depart from me I never knew you. This is about a relationship and not about works. I admire your ability to go door to door and witness to people. You are a rock for your religion, but that rock is on a sandy foundation. I just wish your abilities were focused on the truth and not the doctrinal whim put out by a select few in Brooklyn. There is enough Grace for all our sins. As you all saw I have a lot of sins.[/quote]

What is better. Following something that you think is true, write about it, find out it is wrong, then change the belief. OR Following something that you think is true, get confronted with a differing opinion, and stubbornly sticking to a previous belief regardless?

You do realize that you quoted our own literature. WE admitted we were wrong right there in print.[/quote]

I do understand what you are saying. For a Religion that makes a lot of money on publishing books that is just too convienient.

That is the issue. You continue to follow the beliefs of people that continue to beleive things then have to go back and change it ALL the time. I might not be able to proove that Jesus is correct or not, but in the end if my beliefs are wrong then nothing happens. I die and stay in the ground forever, or I am reincarnated into something else, or my works will determine where I go. What if I am right, and Jesus is the only way to heaven?

I am going to stick with the beliefs and writings of the Apostles. They actually spent time with Jesus and were taught directly by him. They also died because they believed he is God.

Your founders never met Jesus, and where not taught by him.[/quote]

Our books are completely free of charge. Thank you.[/quote]

Nothing is free.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
We are trying to show you the truth man.
[/quote]

Realize that the “we” you speak of aren’t even in one mind, or in agreement. - John 17:21
[/quote]

Good call, but our core beliefs are still the same. Did we not put up the Apostles Creed for you? We split hairs on a regular basis on small matters, but those small matters do not determine salvation. We worship differently but we worship the same God.[/quote]

Jehovah’s Witness, all 7 million of them, believe and teach the same thing.[/quote]

Those teachings change ALL the time. So you beleive that Armageddon came in 1914 and the other dates that I put up. Do you understand what a False Prophet is?

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
How about defend an article written by a Leader. I understand the doctrine has changed on this.

Jehovah Witnesses believed for about 50 years of their history that the great pyramid of Giza, in Egypt was the second witness for God after the Bible? “Jehovah’s Witnesses proclaimers of God’s Kingdom” p. 200).

This is the issue that some of us have. The doctrine of your church seems to change at a drop of a hat. Have you looked at the doctinal history of your church? We are trying to show you the truth man. We might not be able to change your mind. I would say that would be ok, but it is not we do not want you to stand before God/Jehovah/Yahweh/Jesus and he say depart from me I never knew you. This is about a relationship and not about works. I admire your ability to go door to door and witness to people. You are a rock for your religion, but that rock is on a sandy foundation. I just wish your abilities were focused on the truth and not the doctrinal whim put out by a select few in Brooklyn. There is enough Grace for all our sins. As you all saw I have a lot of sins.[/quote]

What is better. Following something that you think is true, write about it, find out it is wrong, then change the belief. OR Following something that you think is true, get confronted with a differing opinion, and stubbornly sticking to a previous belief regardless?

You do realize that you quoted our own literature. WE admitted we were wrong right there in print.[/quote]

I do understand what you are saying. For a Religion that makes a lot of money on publishing books that is just too convienient.

That is the issue. You continue to follow the beliefs of people that continue to beleive things then have to go back and change it ALL the time. I might not be able to proove that Jesus is correct or not, but in the end if my beliefs are wrong then nothing happens. I die and stay in the ground forever, or I am reincarnated into something else, or my works will determine where I go. What if I am right, and Jesus is the only way to heaven?

I am going to stick with the beliefs and writings of the Apostles. They actually spent time with Jesus and were taught directly by him. They also died because they believed he is God.

Your founders never met Jesus, and where not taught by him.[/quote]

Our books are completely free of charge. Thank you.[/quote]

How then do you all get the money to pay for everything?[/quote]

Voluntary contributions. No donation plates are ever passed. Ever.

No plates are passed? WOW! What about weddings and funerals though? Couple weeks ago my daughter’s brother inlaw got married an I couldn’t believe how much Church fees were.

If you guys want a good read, read this book:

Goodbye, Good Men: How Liberals Brought Corruption into the Catholic Church
by Michael S. Rose
Regnery Publishing, Inc.; ISBN: 0895261448
Hardcover - (May, 2002)

The story behind the crisis in the Catholic Church is far worse than you thinkâ?¦

Intimidation, Discrimination, Molestation, Rape, Sexual Promiscuity, and Cover-Ups-Thatâ??s What Going on Inside Many Catholic Seminaries Across the Country

As the controversy surrounding the Catholic Church deepens, many people are asking: How could this have happened? In a new book, Goodbye, Good Men, author Michael Rose presents shocking evidence that the root of the problem extends down to the very place where vocations to the priesthood germinate: the seminary. Rose, who over the course of two years interviewed some 125 seminarians representing fifty dioceses and twenty-two major seminaries, has uncovered a profound spiritual problem inside the seminaries and a sickness of untold proportions.

Goodbye, Good Men: How Liberals Brought Corruption into the Catholic Church exposes the deliberate infiltration by those who wish to change the doctrines, disciplines and mission of the Catholic Church. This radical subculture and its liberal mindset-one that accepts homosexuality and sexual promiscuity in many seminaries-threatens the future of the Catholic Church.

The gay subculture is so prominent at certain seminaries that they have earned nicknames such as: â??Pink Palaceâ?? (St. Maryâ??s Seminary in Baltimore), â??Notre Flameâ?? (Notre Dame Seminary in New Orleans), and â??Theological Closetâ?? (Theological College at the Catholic University of America in Washington, DC). At these and several other seminaries, Rose found shocking examples of how, time and time again, chaste heterosexual seminarians are dismissed as unfit for the priesthood, while promiscuous homosexuals, and even those who have harassed, molested, or even raped other seminarians, are protected or promoted.

For anyone who has asked how pedophiles or predatory homosexual priests could possibly have been tolerated-here is the answer, in the most explosive book on the Catholic Church in a generation.