[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
ZEB,
Will you help answer some questions for me about this topic?[/quote]
I thought that’s what I’ve been doing, but you seem jus a tad resistant.
[/quote]
What Greek word is translated ‘hell’?
What type of person goes to hell?
What is the ‘lake of fire’?
Stated,
“…No eternal punishment FELT in hell, correct. If you believe that their is eternal punishment in hell involving pain and torture, feel free. I don’t believe that agrees with the Bible personally. In fact, I believe the notion of eternal torment came about much later, and was never an original teaching…”
If I may, I would like to comment on the above statement. But first I would like to say that all people that come together to study the Holy Scriptures of the Bible have to do so with an opened mind to the truth of the Scriptures.We all have our own understanding, teachings, and beliefs as to what the scriptures are saying but if we truly are seeking the truth, the Holy Spirit will open our minds to it and thus, we have to be open to it and accept that we are ever learning as Apollos, whom Aquila and Priscilla expounded unto him more perfectly (Acts 18:24-26).
Matthew 8: 11-12 “And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
The “kingdom of heaven” refers to the age to come in which the resurrected righteous of O.T. times will celebrate the heavenly feast with the Gentile believers (Mark 14:25; Rev. 19:9).
Verse 12 gives the dark side of the glorious picture painted in verse 11. Though the O.T. faithful will enjoy the kingdom of heaven, those of Jesus’ contemporaries who have rejected Him (“children of the kingdom”) will be cast out (John 1:11) at the resurrection and final judgment.
“Outer darkness,” Gehenna, is the specific site of condemnation. Everything outside of the kingdom of God is darkness, for God is light (I John 1:5). As a symbol of judgment, darkness has a literal aspect (II Peter 2:17; Jude 13). “Weeping and gnashing of teeth” symbolize extreme suffering. The term klauthmos (“weeping”), especially signifies the kind of sadness one experiences during times of tragic loss (Matt. 2:18; Acts 20:37). Gnashing of teeth suggests powerlessness and despair; at the same time it also implies that anger and wrath are its cause. This suffering will have no end (Dan. 12:2; Matt. 3:12; Matt. 18:8; 25:46; et al.).
“Weeping” (Gk. kaluthmos), a noun denoting “weeping,” “lamentation,” “crying,” “bitter weeping,” “wailing.” The N.T. uses klauthmos nine times (Matt. 2:18; 8:12; 13:42,50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28; and Acts 20:37),and only Matthew 2:18 and Acts 20:37 carry a stricly literal sense. In the other cases, where eschatology and judgment are a concern, the intent is to convey the feeling of mortal terror, accompanied by gnashing of teeth, at the prospect of having rejected the forgiveness of God and being hopelessly lost.
“Gnashing” (GK. brugmos), is related to (Gk. brucho), a verb denoting “to grate” (the teeth). In the N.T. brugmos is always translated “gnashing” (of teeth), and in the passages where it occurs it is associated with weeping or wailing, and the torment and remorse of the wicked in the future life (Matt. 8:12; 13:42,50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; and Luke 13:28).
[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,
“…No eternal punishment FELT in hell, correct. If you believe that their is eternal punishment in hell involving pain and torture, feel free. I don’t believe that agrees with the Bible personally. In fact, I believe the notion of eternal torment came about much later, and was never an original teaching…”
If I may, I would like to comment on the above statement. But first I would like to say that all people that come together to study the Holy Scriptures of the Bible have to do so with an opened mind to the truth of the Scriptures.We all have our own understanding, teachings, and beliefs as to what the scriptures are saying but if we truly are seeking the truth, the Holy Spirit will open our minds to it and thus, we have to be open to it and accept that we are ever learning as Apollos, whom Aquila and Priscilla expounded unto him more perfectly (Acts 18:24-26).
Matthew 8: 11-12 “And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
The “kingdom of heaven” refers to the age to come in which the resurrected righteous of O.T. times will celebrate the heavenly feast with the Gentile believers (Mark 14:25; Rev. 19:9).
Verse 12 gives the dark side of the glorious picture painted in verse 11. Though the O.T. faithful will enjoy the kingdom of heaven, those of Jesus’ contemporaries who have rejected Him (“children of the kingdom”) will be cast out (John 1:11) at the resurrection and final judgment.
“Outer darkness,” Gehenna, is the specific site of condemnation. Everything outside of the kingdom of God is darkness, for God is light (I John 1:5). As a symbol of judgment, darkness has a literal aspect (II Peter 2:17; Jude 13). “Weeping and gnashing of teeth” symbolize extreme suffering. The term klauthmos (“weeping”), especially signifies the kind of sadness one experiences during times of tragic loss (Matt. 2:18; Acts 20:37). Gnashing of teeth suggests powerlessness and despair; at the same time it also implies that anger and wrath are its cause. This suffering will have no end (Dan. 12:2; Matt. 3:12; Matt. 18:8; 25:46; et al.).
“Weeping” (Gk. kaluthmos), a noun denoting “weeping,” “lamentation,” “crying,” “bitter weeping,” “wailing.” The N.T. uses klauthmos nine times (Matt. 2:18; 8:12; 13:42,50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28; and Acts 20:37),and only Matthew 2:18 and Acts 20:37 carry a stricly literal sense. In the other cases, where eschatology and judgment are a concern, the intent is to convey the feeling of mortal terror, accompanied by gnashing of teeth, at the prospect of having rejected the forgiveness of God and being hopelessly lost.
“Gnashing” (GK. brugmos), is related to (Gk. brucho), a verb denoting “to grate” (the teeth). In the N.T. brugmos is always translated “gnashing” (of teeth), and in the passages where it occurs it is associated with weeping or wailing, and the torment and remorse of the wicked in the future life (Matt. 8:12; 13:42,50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; and Luke 13:28).[/quote]
Thank you for that. I appreciate it.
[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,
“…No eternal punishment FELT in hell, correct. If you believe that their is eternal punishment in hell involving pain and torture, feel free. I don’t believe that agrees with the Bible personally. In fact, I believe the notion of eternal torment came about much later, and was never an original teaching…”
If I may, I would like to comment on the above statement. But first I would like to say that all people that come together to study the Holy Scriptures of the Bible have to do so with an opened mind to the truth of the Scriptures.We all have our own understanding, teachings, and beliefs as to what the scriptures are saying but if we truly are seeking the truth, the Holy Spirit will open our minds to it and thus, we have to be open to it and accept that we are ever learning as Apollos, whom Aquila and Priscilla expounded unto him more perfectly (Acts 18:24-26).
Matthew 8: 11-12 “And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
The “kingdom of heaven” refers to the age to come in which the resurrected righteous of O.T. times will celebrate the heavenly feast with the Gentile believers (Mark 14:25; Rev. 19:9).
Verse 12 gives the dark side of the glorious picture painted in verse 11. Though the O.T. faithful will enjoy the kingdom of heaven, those of Jesus’ contemporaries who have rejected Him (“children of the kingdom”) will be cast out (John 1:11) at the resurrection and final judgment.
“Outer darkness,” Gehenna, is the specific site of condemnation. Everything outside of the kingdom of God is darkness, for God is light (I John 1:5). As a symbol of judgment, darkness has a literal aspect (II Peter 2:17; Jude 13). “Weeping and gnashing of teeth” symbolize extreme suffering. The term klauthmos (“weeping”), especially signifies the kind of sadness one experiences during times of tragic loss (Matt. 2:18; Acts 20:37). Gnashing of teeth suggests powerlessness and despair; at the same time it also implies that anger and wrath are its cause. This suffering will have no end (Dan. 12:2; Matt. 3:12; Matt. 18:8; 25:46; et al.).
“Weeping” (Gk. kaluthmos), a noun denoting “weeping,” “lamentation,” “crying,” “bitter weeping,” “wailing.” The N.T. uses klauthmos nine times (Matt. 2:18; 8:12; 13:42,50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28; and Acts 20:37),and only Matthew 2:18 and Acts 20:37 carry a stricly literal sense. In the other cases, where eschatology and judgment are a concern, the intent is to convey the feeling of mortal terror, accompanied by gnashing of teeth, at the prospect of having rejected the forgiveness of God and being hopelessly lost.
“Gnashing” (GK. brugmos), is related to (Gk. brucho), a verb denoting “to grate” (the teeth). In the N.T. brugmos is always translated “gnashing” (of teeth), and in the passages where it occurs it is associated with weeping or wailing, and the torment and remorse of the wicked in the future life (Matt. 8:12; 13:42,50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; and Luke 13:28).[/quote]
Nice Job Blacksheep…
I think it sufficed to say that hell is a place or state of unplesantness, in what ever form it takes, but mainly due to the total isolation from God. Heaven is the opposite, in full communion with God. And purgatory, if you believe in it, is a state or place where one needs additional grace.
Here’s the deal, none of us know at all what lies beyond. We have faith in God that if we are faithful to him we will be better off, and if not we will be worse. The problem is that we have no idea what either is going to be like because none of us have been there. The good news is we all get to find out one day. The truth is, none of us know.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,
“…No eternal punishment FELT in hell, correct. If you believe that their is eternal punishment in hell involving pain and torture, feel free. I don’t believe that agrees with the Bible personally. In fact, I believe the notion of eternal torment came about much later, and was never an original teaching…”
If I may, I would like to comment on the above statement. But first I would like to say that all people that come together to study the Holy Scriptures of the Bible have to do so with an opened mind to the truth of the Scriptures.We all have our own understanding, teachings, and beliefs as to what the scriptures are saying but if we truly are seeking the truth, the Holy Spirit will open our minds to it and thus, we have to be open to it and accept that we are ever learning as Apollos, whom Aquila and Priscilla expounded unto him more perfectly (Acts 18:24-26).
Matthew 8: 11-12 “And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
The “kingdom of heaven” refers to the age to come in which the resurrected righteous of O.T. times will celebrate the heavenly feast with the Gentile believers (Mark 14:25; Rev. 19:9).
Verse 12 gives the dark side of the glorious picture painted in verse 11. Though the O.T. faithful will enjoy the kingdom of heaven, those of Jesus’ contemporaries who have rejected Him (“children of the kingdom”) will be cast out (John 1:11) at the resurrection and final judgment.
“Outer darkness,” Gehenna, is the specific site of condemnation. Everything outside of the kingdom of God is darkness, for God is light (I John 1:5). As a symbol of judgment, darkness has a literal aspect (II Peter 2:17; Jude 13). “Weeping and gnashing of teeth” symbolize extreme suffering. The term klauthmos (“weeping”), especially signifies the kind of sadness one experiences during times of tragic loss (Matt. 2:18; Acts 20:37). Gnashing of teeth suggests powerlessness and despair; at the same time it also implies that anger and wrath are its cause. This suffering will have no end (Dan. 12:2; Matt. 3:12; Matt. 18:8; 25:46; et al.).
“Weeping” (Gk. kaluthmos), a noun denoting “weeping,” “lamentation,” “crying,” “bitter weeping,” “wailing.” The N.T. uses klauthmos nine times (Matt. 2:18; 8:12; 13:42,50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28; and Acts 20:37),and only Matthew 2:18 and Acts 20:37 carry a stricly literal sense. In the other cases, where eschatology and judgment are a concern, the intent is to convey the feeling of mortal terror, accompanied by gnashing of teeth, at the prospect of having rejected the forgiveness of God and being hopelessly lost.
“Gnashing” (GK. brugmos), is related to (Gk. brucho), a verb denoting “to grate” (the teeth). In the N.T. brugmos is always translated “gnashing” (of teeth), and in the passages where it occurs it is associated with weeping or wailing, and the torment and remorse of the wicked in the future life (Matt. 8:12; 13:42,50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; and Luke 13:28).[/quote]
Nice Job Blacksheep…
I think it sufficed to say that hell is a place or state of unplesantness, in what ever form it takes, but mainly due to the total isolation from God. Heaven is the opposite, in full communion with God. And purgatory, if you believe in it, is a state or place where one needs additional grace.
Here’s the deal, none of us know at all what lies beyond. We have faith in God that if we are faithful to him we will be better off, and if not we will be worse. The problem is that we have no idea what either is going to be like because none of us have been there. The good news is we all get to find out one day. The truth is, none of us know. [/quote]
How do we get to Heaven?
If Christians are wrong then nothing happens, but if Christians are correct there are going to be a lot of disappointed people.
It is hard to beleive that the apostles would have given up their lives for something that was not true. If we beleive the Bible then, the apostles walked with Jesus and believed that he was the Christ / Messiah. Why would they give up their lives for that belief? This is why I have faith that Christianity is correct. Every other religion is based on being good, and if you work hard enough you will get to Heaven, Enlightenment, Nirvana etc.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
ZEB,
Will you help answer some questions for me about this topic?[/quote]
I thought that’s what I’ve been doing, but you seem jus a tad resistant.
[/quote]
What Greek word is translated ‘hell’?
What type of person goes to hell?
What is the ‘lake of fire’?[/quote]
First you have to explain to me why the rich man was in such torment in HELL.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
ZEB,
Will you help answer some questions for me about this topic?[/quote]
I thought that’s what I’ve been doing, but you seem jus a tad resistant.
[/quote]
What Greek word is translated ‘hell’?
What type of person goes to hell?
What is the ‘lake of fire’?[/quote]
First you have to explain to me why the rich man was in such torment in HELL.
[/quote]
And we can get to that, but don’t you think we need to establish a base line that we both agree on? You can’t run before you can walk.
What word was used for hell? The verse I believe you are referring to is Luke 16:23. The Greek word used there is Ha’des.
Now, in Acts 2:31. Peter was talking about Jesus Christ, which we all can agree did nothing deserving of Eternal torture. However, it is interesting to note that it says Jesus was not forsaken in Ha’des.
I looked up many translations on this scripture. Some use the term ‘hell’, some ‘had’es’, some ‘grave’.
What can be made of this?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I don’t have to do that because I’ve already done it. I’ve researched this topic many times in the past. I’ve looked at the original Greek version and also ancient Hebrew. There is no basis for your position other than it’s a modern way to twist the scriptures in order to not feel pressure to not sin. If one simply fades away, how convenient.
Really, stop it.
[/quote]
Again, I am one that has been saying you have to do things to get “saved”, not just exist. Tell me please, what modern religion believes that there is no hell?[/quote]
What do you believe? How are you to be Saved? What does Saved mean to you? How do you get to heaven?
I am trying to be sincere here. No motivations. I really want to hear what you have to say about this. I derailed the discussion with a personal attack and I do apologize. Will you forgive me for my judgemental behavior?[/quote]
Of course I forgive you. If you would like to see what I believe, please reread some of my past beliefs. I list a lot of them on one of the posts.[/quote]
I do not think you ever touched on How a person gets to Heaven. We have been more hung up on there is no Hell, and Jesus was crucified on a stake.
How does a person get to Heaven?[/quote]
I asked this question previously, but did not get an answer. I’ve found that those who maintain that someone must “do things to get saved”, do not seem to want to define those “things” when asked for specifics. Believing a person’s faith in God is justified by obedience, repentance, and works is totally different than living in trust, reliance, and rest in the love of God and what He has done for us.
This is what it comes down to - How much sin do you want to see a person put out of their life before you would be able to say that this is a believer, a Christian, a child of God? What are the works that you want to see in a person’s life in order to feel justified to the extent you can say with confidence that this person is going to enter into the kingdom of heaven? What are those works? How many of them would you expect to see? How many works of repentance would you expect to see? How much obedience to good works is going to be necessary?
They don’t want to answer this question. The reason why is because they can’t answer it. The reason they can’t answer it is because it can’t be answered without being true and honest to the Word of God that was given in the old covenant, which was full and complete obedience. “You are to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Mat 5:48) “Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will in no way enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Mat 5:20) The life of the scribes and Pharisees was wholly devoted to repentance and obedience. So, if you want a standard, start with that and build on top of it, and you might perhaps be able to enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The point is that people are not willing to say specifically, precisely what it is you need to do, what works they need to see, in order to believe that their justification is made perfect because the answer will always come down to this - you will never be able to do it.
So, then when someone witnesses to or disciples a person to be justified by obedience and works, they are inviting the person to live a life they will never be able to live. And they are basically telling a person that to some degree God does not fully accept them, fully approve of them, or fully love them; and to a certain degree He is actually ashamed of them. And they need to “do things” so that God will fully love, accept, and appreciate them.
A person needs to come to a point in their faith where they acknowledge the truth - that they will never be able to do it. They need to believe that they have been made right with God and justified before God for what He did for them. And that is the point Paul is making in Romans 3:23-28. They need to fully believe that their faith is not going to be perfected by their obedience and works.
Works have no part in a believer’s life in terms of their identification as a child of God, in terms of their salvation, in terms of their entrance into the kingdom of heaven, in terms of their faith in Christ Jesus.
Having said that I want to say that we certainly would expect to see works in a believer’s life. There is no reason not to expect that, but as soon as we say there has to be, then we have to define what those things have to be. And we start going down a wrong path.
Rom 3:23-28 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”
[quote]MBH wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I don’t have to do that because I’ve already done it. I’ve researched this topic many times in the past. I’ve looked at the original Greek version and also ancient Hebrew. There is no basis for your position other than it’s a modern way to twist the scriptures in order to not feel pressure to not sin. If one simply fades away, how convenient.
Really, stop it.
[/quote]
Again, I am one that has been saying you have to do things to get “saved”, not just exist. Tell me please, what modern religion believes that there is no hell?[/quote]
What do you believe? How are you to be Saved? What does Saved mean to you? How do you get to heaven?
I am trying to be sincere here. No motivations. I really want to hear what you have to say about this. I derailed the discussion with a personal attack and I do apologize. Will you forgive me for my judgemental behavior?[/quote]
Of course I forgive you. If you would like to see what I believe, please reread some of my past beliefs. I list a lot of them on one of the posts.[/quote]
I do not think you ever touched on How a person gets to Heaven. We have been more hung up on there is no Hell, and Jesus was crucified on a stake.
How does a person get to Heaven?[/quote]
I asked this question previously, but did not get an answer. I’ve found that those who maintain that someone must “do things to get saved”, do not seem to want to define those “things” when asked for specifics. Believing a person’s faith in God is justified by obedience, repentance, and works is totally different than living in trust, reliance, and rest in the love of God and what He has done for us.
This is what it comes down to - How much sin do you want to see a person put out of their life before you would be able to say that this is a believer, a Christian, a child of God? What are the works that you want to see in a person’s life in order to feel justified to the extent you can say with confidence that this person is going to enter into the kingdom of heaven? What are those works? How many of them would you expect to see? How many works of repentance would you expect to see? How much obedience to good works is going to be necessary?
They don’t want to answer this question. The reason why is because they can’t answer it. The reason they can’t answer it is because it can’t be answered without being true and honest to the Word of God that was given in the old covenant, which was full and complete obedience. “You are to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Mat 5:48) “Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will in no way enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Mat 5:20) The life of the scribes and Pharisees was wholly devoted to repentance and obedience. So, if you want a standard, start with that and build on top of it, and you might perhaps be able to enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The point is that people are not willing to say specifically, precisely what it is you need to do, what works they need to see, in order to believe that their justification is made perfect because the answer will always come down to this - you will never be able to do it.
So, then when someone witnesses to or disciples a person to be justified by obedience and works, they are inviting the person to live a life they will never be able to live. And they are basically telling a person that to some degree God does not fully accept them, fully approve of them, or fully love them; and to a certain degree He is actually ashamed of them. And they need to “do things” so that God will fully love, accept, and appreciate them.
A person needs to come to a point in their faith where they acknowledge the truth - that they will never be able to do it. They need to believe that they have been made right with God and justified before God for what He did for them. And that is the point Paul is making in Romans 3:23-28. They need to fully believe that their faith is not going to be perfected by their obedience and works.
Works have no part in a believer’s life in terms of their identification as a child of God, in terms of their salvation, in terms of their entrance into the kingdom of heaven, in terms of their faith in Christ Jesus.
Having said that I want to say that we certainly would expect to see works in a believer’s life. There is no reason not to expect that, but as soon as we say there has to be, then we have to define what those things have to be. And we start going down a wrong path.
Rom 3:23-28 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”
[/quote]
I will share my thoughts later. However, at the moment, I would like to stick to one topic and follow it through. Current topic: Hell
Stated,
"Now, in Acts 2:31. Peter was talking about Jesus Christ, which we all can agree did nothing deserving of Eternal torture. However, it is interesting to note that it says Jesus was not forsaken in Ha’des.
I looked up many translations on this scripture. Some use the term ‘hell’, some ‘had’es’, some ‘grave’.
What can be made of this?"
Acts 2:31 “He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.”
“Hell” (Gk. hades) a noun denoting the underworld, the realm of the dead.
Peter did not give any details of Christ’s descent into Hades. The notion that Jesus spent the 3 days following His crucifixion leading the righteous dead out of paradise and snatching the keys of Hades and Death from Satan is not supported by the Scriptures. Speculation about this goes beyon what the Scriptures teaches. Instead, Peter declared that what David (Acts 2:29-30) foresaw in the psalm was the resurrection of Christ (literally, the Christ, that is, the Messiah, God’s Anointed Prophet, Priest, and King). In other words, Peter declared Jesus to be the messianic King. Because God raised Him up, He was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
So your saying either God let Jesus suffer in hell for 3 days or that hades is the common grave and he was resurected. I think I understand what honest lifter is saying now. It just makes sense now glad I came back to this thread I usually stick to the lifting area.
More on Catholic Church and Nazism:
During his recent visit to Germany, Pope John Paul II tried to emphasize the opposition of the Catholic Church to Nazism. According to accounts, he listed many clerical and lay Catholics who opposed the Nazis.
But according to â??The New York Timesâ?? (May 4, 1987), this â??effort has drawn criticism from some Catholics, however, who accuse the Pope of distorting the fact that few Catholic leaders actually resisted Nazi tyranny, beyond struggling to save church prerogatives.â??
Even Jesuit priest Rupert Mayer, whom the pope beatified for speaking out against the Nazis, was interned in the Benedictine abbey of Ettal under an agreement between Nazi leaders and the church hierarchy, for whom the Jesuitâ??s outspokenness had become an embarrassment, according to the â??Times.â?? One Jesuit priest!
Why did not the pope honor scores of Catholic bishops, archbishops, and cardinals, plus thousands of Catholic priests, for their opposition to the Nazis? Because the vast majority did not resist Nazism!â??
[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,
"Now, in Acts 2:31. Peter was talking about Jesus Christ, which we all can agree did nothing deserving of Eternal torture. However, it is interesting to note that it says Jesus was not forsaken in Ha’des.
I looked up many translations on this scripture. Some use the term ‘hell’, some ‘had’es’, some ‘grave’.
What can be made of this?"
Acts 2:31 “He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.”
“Hell” (Gk. hades) a noun denoting the underworld, the realm of the dead.
Peter did not give any details of Christ’s descent into Hades. The notion that Jesus spent the 3 days following His crucifixion leading the righteous dead out of paradise and snatching the keys of Hades and Death from Satan is not supported by the Scriptures. Speculation about this goes beyon what the Scriptures teaches. Instead, Peter declared that what David (Acts 2:29-30) foresaw in the psalm was the resurrection of Christ (literally, the Christ, that is, the Messiah, God’s Anointed Prophet, Priest, and King). In other words, Peter declared Jesus to be the messianic King. Because God raised Him up, He was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.[/quote]
Where did you pull your definition of had’es?
Strongs Greek Lexicon
hah’-dace from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; properly, unseen, i.e. “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls:–grave, hell.
To be sure, neither suggest anything in those definitions about anything living. To infer such at this point in the discussion wouldn’t be prudent, and your response doesn’t appear to have done that. I am not ruling it out, but we can’t draw that conclusion from these definitions.
What we can note, though, is that it appears the righteous and the unrighteous CAN go there.
Do you agree, ZEB?
[quote]BULLD0G700 wrote:
So your saying either God let Jesus suffer in hell for 3 days or that hades is the common grave and he was resurected. I think I understand what honest lifter is saying now. It just makes sense now glad I came back to this thread I usually stick to the lifting area.[/quote]
Does the Warden of a Jail have to live like the prisoners? Since Catholics and Protestants believe that Jesus is God, do you really think he was in torment? Jesus was there for a reason to gain the keys to Hell and to defeat Death, not to sit there and wait in torment to be resurrected.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
ZEB,
Will you help answer some questions for me about this topic?[/quote]
I thought that’s what I’ve been doing, but you seem jus a tad resistant.
[/quote]
What Greek word is translated ‘hell’?
What type of person goes to hell?
What is the ‘lake of fire’?[/quote]
First you have to explain to me why the rich man was in such torment in HELL.
[/quote]
And we can get to that, but don’t you think we need to establish a base line that we both agree on? You can’t run before you can walk.
What word was used for hell? The verse I believe you are referring to is Luke 16:23. The Greek word used there is Ha’des.
Now, in Acts 2:31. Peter was talking about Jesus Christ, which we all can agree did nothing deserving of Eternal torture. However, it is interesting to note that it says Jesus was not forsaken in Ha’des.
I looked up many translations on this scripture. Some use the term ‘hell’, some ‘had’es’, some ‘grave’.
What can be made of this?
[/quote]
You can’t answer my questions so I will not be answering yours. I don’t feel like getting pulled into a nonsensical debate where I watch you parse certain words of the Bible until you get them to mean what you want them to regardless of fact. It’s basically annoying and a time waster.
There have been literally hundreds of Bible Scholars who have devoted a lifetime to this book who don’t have a problem with the interpretation, I doubt that some 20 something who has had his head turned with the latest lie of the day will shed any new light on the topic. Call me realistic, I’ve been through this stuff before right on this site and it goes no where.
Even so, to be fair I’ll continue this nonsense if you’d like to answer my question regarding the rich man.
Good luck,
Zeb
Hey this is an interesting read:
"The Jehovah Witness Movement was begun by Charles Taze Russell. Born in 1852, Russell founded the Zion’s Watch Tower in 1879 and later incorporated the group under the name “Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society” in 1884.
Russell born on February 16, 1852. He was raised a Presbyterian, but later joined the Congregational Church because of its “more liberal views.” His mother died when he was 9, the year the Civil War began.
As a youth Russell seems to have been obsessed with hellfire and torment; he also apparently saw himself as the instrument of men’s salvation. An early associate of Russell’s tells us that 14-year-old Charles Taze would go out Saturday nights “to where men gathered. . .to loaf, and would write Bible texts on the sidewalk with colored chalk . . . .He hoped to attract their attention, so that they might accept Christ and avoid being lost and going to eternal torment.” [Faith, p. 17] . When Russell was 17, he suffered a revulsion against the concept eternal punishment and against the doctrine of predestination.
Russell began his teachings shortly after wandering into a religious meeting where Jonas Wendell was teaching “Second Adventism” in 1870. Charles Russell subsequently began his own movement with his father and a small group of others after forming a small Bible study in Allegheny, Pennsylvania. From 1870 through 1875 the Russell family, and others, participated in an analytical study of both the Bible and the origins of Christian doctrine, creed, and tradition. “Millerite” Adventist ministers George Storrs, and George Stetson, were also closely involved. Russell’s group believed they had found significant errors in common Christian belief. As a result of such study, the Russell family believed they had gained a clearer understanding of true Christianity, and were re-baptized in 1874. His personal “message” began with his rejection of the Christian doctrine of Hell, and he later added many physical and spiritually dangerous doctrines of his own making. Ultimately, Russell rejected nearly every other Christian doctrine, and published his bizarre teachings in a 6-volume series under the name “Studies in the Scriptures”.
Several Protestant denominations have either formed around, or adopted some style of, Pastor Russell’s views, among them the Worldwide Church of God, the Concordant Publishing Concern, the Assemblies of Yahweh. Among the numerous Bible Student off-shoot groups include the Pastoral Bible Institute, the Layman’s Home Missionary Movement and others.
Charles Taze Russell was a proven liar, who claimed in a New York Court in 1913, that he was an ordained pastor, and that he was well versed in both Greek and Latin. But when pressed on the stand in Court, he could not read anything from the Greek alphabet. He also could show no proof of any ordination from any mainline church. In his own defense, Russell said he believed that his ordination was “of God” according to the biblical pattern, not requiring any denominational approval, and that his annual election as “Pastor” by over 1,200 congregations worldwide constituted him as “ordained”, or chosen, to be a minister of the gospel. Russell died on October 31, 1916 while traveling on a train near Pampa, Texas. His successor, Joseph F. Rutherford began revising Russell’s doctrine.
In 1920, Rutherford began speaking to large crowds falsely telling them that millions of people then living would never die. Between 1921 and 1941, Rutherford wrote twenty books and numerous pamphlets, beginning with his first publication, known as “Harp of God”.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
ZEB,
Will you help answer some questions for me about this topic?[/quote]
I thought that’s what I’ve been doing, but you seem jus a tad resistant.
[/quote]
What Greek word is translated ‘hell’?
What type of person goes to hell?
What is the ‘lake of fire’?[/quote]
First you have to explain to me why the rich man was in such torment in HELL.
[/quote]
And we can get to that, but don’t you think we need to establish a base line that we both agree on? You can’t run before you can walk.
What word was used for hell? The verse I believe you are referring to is Luke 16:23. The Greek word used there is Ha’des.
Now, in Acts 2:31. Peter was talking about Jesus Christ, which we all can agree did nothing deserving of Eternal torture. However, it is interesting to note that it says Jesus was not forsaken in Ha’des.
I looked up many translations on this scripture. Some use the term ‘hell’, some ‘had’es’, some ‘grave’.
What can be made of this?
[/quote]
You can’t answer my questions so I will not be answering yours. I don’t feel like getting pulled into a nonsensical debate where I watch you parse certain words of the Bible until you get them to mean what you want them to regardless of fact. It’s basically annoying and a time waster.
There have been literally hundreds of Bible Scholars who have devoted a lifetime to this book who don’t have a problem with the interpretation, I doubt that some 20 something who has had his head turned with the latest lie of the day will shed any new light on the topic. Call me realistic, I’ve been through this stuff before right on this site and it goes no where.
Even so, to be fair I’ll continue this nonsense if you’d like to answer my question regarding the rich man.
Good luck,
Zeb[/quote]
Thank you for your personal thoughts. I really am answering your question regarding the rich man. The Bible says that he was in torment. We have to now decide on the words given, if this was a parable, or if this was a real account of what happens after we die.
All we have found out so far is that hell can contain both righteous (Jesus) and the rich man appears to be unrighteous so it can include those as well.
I would love to hear your further thoughts on the scriptures that were mentioned, if you would like to share.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
All we have found out so far is that hell can contain both righteous (Jesus) and the rich man appears to be unrighteous so it can include those as well.[/quote]
Wrong again.
Christ died for our sins, you do understand that don’t you? He took the punishment upon himself for all who would believe.
Do you understand that he is the son of God and was there from the beginning before creation? Do you understand Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as the trinity?
By the way don’t you think that my post above is interesting reading?
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
ZEB,
Will you help answer some questions for me about this topic?[/quote]
I thought that’s what I’ve been doing, but you seem jus a tad resistant.
[/quote]
What Greek word is translated ‘hell’?
What type of person goes to hell?
What is the ‘lake of fire’?[/quote]
First you have to explain to me why the rich man was in such torment in HELL.
[/quote]
And we can get to that, but don’t you think we need to establish a base line that we both agree on? You can’t run before you can walk.
What word was used for hell? The verse I believe you are referring to is Luke 16:23. The Greek word used there is Ha’des.
Now, in Acts 2:31. Peter was talking about Jesus Christ, which we all can agree did nothing deserving of Eternal torture. However, it is interesting to note that it says Jesus was not forsaken in Ha’des.
I looked up many translations on this scripture. Some use the term ‘hell’, some ‘had’es’, some ‘grave’.
What can be made of this?
[/quote]
You can’t answer my questions so I will not be answering yours. I don’t feel like getting pulled into a nonsensical debate where I watch you parse certain words of the Bible until you get them to mean what you want them to regardless of fact. It’s basically annoying and a time waster.
There have been literally hundreds of Bible Scholars who have devoted a lifetime to this book who don’t have a problem with the interpretation, I doubt that some 20 something who has had his head turned with the latest lie of the day will shed any new light on the topic. Call me realistic, I’ve been through this stuff before right on this site and it goes no where.
Even so, to be fair I’ll continue this nonsense if you’d like to answer my question regarding the rich man.
Good luck,
Zeb[/quote]
Thank you for your personal thoughts. I really am answering your question regarding the rich man. The Bible says that he was in torment. We have to now decide on the words given, if this was a parable, or if this was a real account of what happens after we die.
All we have found out so far is that hell can contain both righteous (Jesus) and the rich man appears to be unrighteous so it can include those as well.
I would love to hear your further thoughts on the scriptures that were mentioned, if you would like to share.
[/quote]
What is your definition of a Parable?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
All we have found out so far is that hell can contain both righteous (Jesus) and the rich man appears to be unrighteous so it can include those as well.[/quote]
Wrong again.
Christ died for our sins, you do understand that don’t you? He took the punishment upon himself for all who would believe.
Do you understand that he is the son of God and was there from the beginning before creation? Do you understand Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as the trinity?
By the way don’t you think that my post above is interesting reading?
[/quote]
If you do not wish to discuss it, we don’t have to. We can get to other subjects later, including the trinity, but the current issue you had was with hell.