The Church or The Bible

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
221

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
When Catholics pray to the saints they are using them as intercessors.

They ask the saints to pray to God on their behalf.
[/quote]

1 Tim 2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.

[/quote]

So you have never asked anyone to pray for you?

[/quote]

Personally no, but I wouldn’t see a problem in doing it. why? [/quote]

That is what the Catholics are doing when the approach Mary or the Saints to pray for them.[/quote]

Small difference. They are asking a statue to pray for them, not a real person. And the person the statue represents is dead.[/quote]

We don’t pray to status…Not sure how much more clear I can be.[/quote]

Sorry, dmaddux and myself kind of had a digression. So, you could please explain what purpose the statue serve?

222

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

But what we are worshipping isn’t the mere matter that makes up the statue, but the presence of Our Lord that glows within it; as in, for example, the Blessed Sacrament.

[/quote]

So, is this a standard Catholic belief?

223

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
10 verses later. John 14:20 - New American Standard Bible

In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

So we are all God then I would have to assume?[/quote]

I will take this tounge in check. I will say that Jesus is fully God and Fully Man. Not being fully God would make him just a sinful human like you and me. But since Jesus did not have a human father do donate his sinful sperm then he could be sinless correct?[/quote]

Are angels perfect? (sinless)[/quote]

Is Satan/Lucifer the Angel of Light?[/quote]

Is that an answer to my question or a subject change?[/quote]

I am doing the exact same thing you are doing by asking a question instead of answering questions. At least my question answers your question.

Why don’t you answer my question about the Archangel Micheal being Jesus?[/quote]

you said him not being God would make him sinful. angels are not sinful and are not God.

What point will answering your question about michael make?[/quote]

It is ok man you don’t have to answer the question. We all know your answer.

If he is not God that would make him sinful. I believe he is God, and that makes him sinless. Jesus has to be God to be a perfect sacrifice. But Jesus has to be human also so he can be a sacrifical lamb or substitute for human sins. Jesus had to take on the sins of the world. Jesus was named Emanuel, God with us, as proclaimed by the Angels.

224

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
When Catholics pray to the saints they are using them as intercessors.

They ask the saints to pray to God on their behalf.
[/quote]

1 Tim 2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.

[/quote]

So you have never asked anyone to pray for you?

[/quote]

Personally no, but I wouldn’t see a problem in doing it. why? [/quote]

That is what the Catholics are doing when the approach Mary or the Saints to pray for them.[/quote]

Small difference. They are asking a statue to pray for them, not a real person. And the person the statue represents is dead.[/quote]

Bullshit. You should stop being ignorant.[/quote]

What purpose do statues serve in your worship?

225

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

But what we are worshipping isn’t the mere matter that makes up the statue, but the presence of Our Lord that glows within it; as in, for example, the Blessed Sacrament.

[/quote]

So, is this a standard Catholic belief?[/quote]

Yes, as long as you understand that the matter is transfigured by the presence of Our Lord into something Holy.

226

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

If he is not God that would make him sinful.
[/quote]
Why?

[quote]Jesus has to be God to be a perfect sacrifice.
[/quote]

Why?

If Jesus died,and Jesus is God, who resurrected him?

227

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Aaron, the leader the people turned to while Moses was gone, said that it was a ‘feast to Jehovah (God)’. It is right there.

Also, John 4: 23,24

Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24�?� God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.

The Israelites KNEW who brought them out of Egypt.

Any scripture in the Bible can be turned any way the reader wants to. Thus the reason there are many many different types of “christians”. However, there can only be one correct way.

Of course, I feel my way of viewing it is correct, thus the reason I don’t use any images to aid in my worship. But, no doubt you guys feel your way is correct to.
[/quote]

Only one correct way, says the man that is farthest out there.[/quote]

I love your bluntness Brother Chris. No sarcasim intended.

228

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

But what we are worshipping isn’t the mere matter that makes up the statue, but the presence of Our Lord that glows within it; as in, for example, the Blessed Sacrament.

[/quote]

So do you worship the statue, because God is in the statue, or He made the statue Holy? Or is there something else?
So, is this a standard Catholic belief?[/quote]

Yes, as long as you understand that the matter is transfigured by the presence of Our Lord into something Holy. [/quote]

229

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Aaron, the leader the people turned to while Moses was gone, said that it was a ‘feast to Jehovah (God)’. It is right there.

Also, John 4: 23,24

Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24�??�?� God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.

The Israelites KNEW who brought them out of Egypt.

Any scripture in the Bible can be turned any way the reader wants to. Thus the reason there are many many different types of “christians”. However, there can only be one correct way.

Of course, I feel my way of viewing it is correct, thus the reason I don’t use any images to aid in my worship. But, no doubt you guys feel your way is correct to.
[/quote]

Only one correct way, says the man that is farthest out there.[/quote]

I love your bluntness Brother Chris. No sarcasim intended.[/quote]

You are aware that I said we ALL feel we are correct? As a side point, you are also aware that the majority of the people on the earth at one point KNEW the earth was flat right? Round earth. hah. laughable concept. ignorant minority.

I have not once insulted you intentionally.

230

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

If he is not God that would make him sinful.
[/quote]
Why?

[quote]Jesus has to be God to be a perfect sacrifice.
[/quote]

Why?

If Jesus died,and Jesus is God, who resurrected him?
[/quote]

You asked the question if Angels were sinful? Let me answer this. Satan/Devil/Lucifer was the angel of light. The top angel with only God over him. I would say that the he is the King of sins, and that angels have some free will to either follow God or not. So this makes Angels sinful beings, so Jesus can not be the archangel Michael as the Jehovah’s Witnesses so believe.

You ask why Jesus must be sinless. If Jesus had sin he would be a blemished sacrifice. God would not accept a blemished sacrifice. We learn in the Old Testament that for a sacrifice to be good it has to be unblemished and of the first fruits. Jesus was Mary’s first son and he was without sin.

231

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

Scripture reference please. I know of one reference to Satan being the angel of light in the Bible, and if that is the one you are refering to, you will draw a different conclusion by reading context. 2 cor 11:14

Scriptural reference please.

Scriptural reference please.

never asked this. I asked why Jesus must be God.

I will safe the rest of my rebuttal when you give me some references.

232

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Aaron, the leader the people turned to while Moses was gone, said that it was a ‘feast to Jehovah (God)’. It is right there.

Also, John 4: 23,24

Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24�??�??�?� God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.

The Israelites KNEW who brought them out of Egypt.

Any scripture in the Bible can be turned any way the reader wants to. Thus the reason there are many many different types of “christians”. However, there can only be one correct way.

Of course, I feel my way of viewing it is correct, thus the reason I don’t use any images to aid in my worship. But, no doubt you guys feel your way is correct to.
[/quote]

Only one correct way, says the man that is farthest out there.[/quote]

I love your bluntness Brother Chris. No sarcasim intended.[/quote]

You are aware that I said we ALL feel we are correct? As a side point, you are also aware that the majority of the people on the earth at one point KNEW the earth was flat right? Round earth. hah. laughable concept. ignorant minority.

I have not once insulted you intentionally. [/quote]

If I insulted you I do apologize.

I know what I am about to say you will find something in the Watch Tower bag of goodies to twist this.

Jesus stated he was God when asked by the Sanhedrin (spelling bad) if he was the Messiah. He did not answer the question I am the Messiah. Jesus states I am. That is what they wanted to hear. Jesus now blasphamies the name of God. God told Moses to tell the Israelites in Egypt that I am sent you. Jesus in those two words states he is God. This is Black and White and there is no middle ground.

233

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

Scripture reference please. I know of one reference to Satan being the angel of light in the Bible, and if that is the one you are refering to, you will draw a different conclusion by reading context. 2 cor 11:14

Scriptural reference please.

Scriptural reference please.

never asked this. I asked why Jesus must be God.

I will safe the rest of my rebuttal when you give me some references.

[/quote]

Can I get a scriptural reference where Jesus is the Archangel Micheal?

My reference is Jewish history and customs.

234

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Aaron, the leader the people turned to while Moses was gone, said that it was a ‘feast to Jehovah (God)’. It is right there.

Also, John 4: 23,24

Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24�??�??�??�?� God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.

The Israelites KNEW who brought them out of Egypt.

Any scripture in the Bible can be turned any way the reader wants to. Thus the reason there are many many different types of “christians”. However, there can only be one correct way.

Of course, I feel my way of viewing it is correct, thus the reason I don’t use any images to aid in my worship. But, no doubt you guys feel your way is correct to.
[/quote]

Only one correct way, says the man that is farthest out there.[/quote]

I love your bluntness Brother Chris. No sarcasim intended.[/quote]

You are aware that I said we ALL feel we are correct? As a side point, you are also aware that the majority of the people on the earth at one point KNEW the earth was flat right? Round earth. hah. laughable concept. ignorant minority.

I have not once insulted you intentionally. [/quote]

If I insulted you I do apologize.

I know what I am about to say you will find something in the Watch Tower bag of goodies to twist this.

Jesus stated he was God when asked by the Sanhedrin (spelling bad) if he was the Messiah. He did not answer the question I am the Messiah. Jesus states I am. That is what they wanted to hear. Jesus now blasphamies the name of God. God told Moses to tell the Israelites in Egypt that I am sent you. Jesus in those two words states he is God. This is Black and White and there is no middle ground.

[/quote]

I don’t need to twist anything. Throughout the Greek Scriptures, Jesus is referred to as God’s Son.

Phil 2:5

Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

I don’t even have to explain this scripture.

235

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
When Catholics pray to the saints they are using them as intercessors.

They ask the saints to pray to God on their behalf.
[/quote]

1 Tim 2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.

[/quote]

So you have never asked anyone to pray for you?

[/quote]

Personally no, but I wouldn’t see a problem in doing it. why? [/quote]

That is what the Catholics are doing when the approach Mary or the Saints to pray for them.[/quote]

Small difference. They are asking a statue to pray for them, not a real person. And the person the statue represents is dead.[/quote]

Bullshit. You should stop being ignorant.[/quote]

What purpose do statues serve in your worship?
[/quote]

They serve as a kind of lifeline in a fallen world.

Chesterton said that we are born on a battlefield and must wake to discover that evil exists and that we are living in “enemy occupied territory.”

For much in the world is contrary to God’s will and we must put things right again.

Going to mass is like listening to “the wireless” in wartime.

We are to participate in a campaign of sabotage; and we are either part of the resistance or we are in league with powers of darkness.

236

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

Scripture reference please. I know of one reference to Satan being the angel of light in the Bible, and if that is the one you are refering to, you will draw a different conclusion by reading context. 2 cor 11:14

Scriptural reference please.

Scriptural reference please.

never asked this. I asked why Jesus must be God.

I will safe the rest of my rebuttal when you give me some references.

[/quote]

Can I get a scriptural reference where Jesus is the Archangel Micheal?

My reference is Jewish history and customs.[/quote]

I gave it to you. You didn’t accept it. And Jewish history and customs can’t be your soul basis, you know that. You know that Jesus condemned the Pharicees for making teachings of men, doctrine.

If there is a particular reference that you used, please share it though, so i can look it up myself.

237

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

But what we are worshipping isn’t the mere matter that makes up the statue, but the presence of Our Lord that glows within it; as in, for example, the Blessed Sacrament.

[/quote]

So do you worship the statue, because God is in the statue, or He made the statue Holy? Or is there something else?
So, is this a standard Catholic belief?[/quote]

Yes, as long as you understand that the matter is transfigured by the presence of Our Lord into something Holy. [/quote]
[/quote]

His presence sanctifies matter and renders a thing Holy.

238

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

But what we are worshipping isn’t the mere matter that makes up the statue, but the presence of Our Lord that glows within it; as in, for example, the Blessed Sacrament.

[/quote]

So, is this a standard Catholic belief?[/quote]

No, the Eucharist is entirely different. This may be a reference to some “miracle statues” that have shed tears, blood or both.
The Eucharist is the Real Presence.

239

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Aaron, the leader the people turned to while Moses was gone, said that it was a ‘feast to Jehovah (God)’. It is right there.

Also, John 4: 23,24

Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24�??�??�??�??�?� God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.

The Israelites KNEW who brought them out of Egypt.

Any scripture in the Bible can be turned any way the reader wants to. Thus the reason there are many many different types of “christians”. However, there can only be one correct way.

Of course, I feel my way of viewing it is correct, thus the reason I don’t use any images to aid in my worship. But, no doubt you guys feel your way is correct to.
[/quote]

Only one correct way, says the man that is farthest out there.[/quote]

I love your bluntness Brother Chris. No sarcasim intended.[/quote]

You are aware that I said we ALL feel we are correct? As a side point, you are also aware that the majority of the people on the earth at one point KNEW the earth was flat right? Round earth. hah. laughable concept. ignorant minority.

I have not once insulted you intentionally. [/quote]

If I insulted you I do apologize.

I know what I am about to say you will find something in the Watch Tower bag of goodies to twist this.

Jesus stated he was God when asked by the Sanhedrin (spelling bad) if he was the Messiah. He did not answer the question I am the Messiah. Jesus states I am. That is what they wanted to hear. Jesus now blasphamies the name of God. God told Moses to tell the Israelites in Egypt that I am sent you. Jesus in those two words states he is God. This is Black and White and there is no middle ground.

[/quote]

I don’t need to twist anything. Throughout the Greek Scriptures, Jesus is referred to as God’s Son.

Phil 2:5

Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6Ã? who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

I don’t even have to explain this scripture.
[/quote]

This is where we have an issue, and all my Catholic friends, I am Protestant, will back this scripture up. Look at verse 6.

Philippians 2:5-11

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to deathâ??
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

This is the issue I have with your Jehovah’s Witness translation. You take words out and add in words that fit your doctrine.

Look at verse 9, Do you think God is going to exalt an angel higher than himself? Jesus is God.

240

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Aaron, the leader the people turned to while Moses was gone, said that it was a ‘feast to Jehovah (God)’. It is right there.

Also, John 4: 23,24

Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24�??�??�??�??�??�?� God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.

The Israelites KNEW who brought them out of Egypt.

Any scripture in the Bible can be turned any way the reader wants to. Thus the reason there are many many different types of “christians”. However, there can only be one correct way.

Of course, I feel my way of viewing it is correct, thus the reason I don’t use any images to aid in my worship. But, no doubt you guys feel your way is correct to.
[/quote]

Only one correct way, says the man that is farthest out there.[/quote]

I love your bluntness Brother Chris. No sarcasim intended.[/quote]

You are aware that I said we ALL feel we are correct? As a side point, you are also aware that the majority of the people on the earth at one point KNEW the earth was flat right? Round earth. hah. laughable concept. ignorant minority.

I have not once insulted you intentionally. [/quote]

If I insulted you I do apologize.

I know what I am about to say you will find something in the Watch Tower bag of goodies to twist this.

Jesus stated he was God when asked by the Sanhedrin (spelling bad) if he was the Messiah. He did not answer the question I am the Messiah. Jesus states I am. That is what they wanted to hear. Jesus now blasphamies the name of God. God told Moses to tell the Israelites in Egypt that I am sent you. Jesus in those two words states he is God. This is Black and White and there is no middle ground.

[/quote]

I don’t need to twist anything. Throughout the Greek Scriptures, Jesus is referred to as God’s Son.

Phil 2:5

Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6Ã??Ã? who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

I don’t even have to explain this scripture.
[/quote]

This is where we have an issue, and all my Catholic friends, I am Protestant, will back this scripture up. Look at verse 6.

Philippians 2:5-11

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to deathâ??
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

This is the issue I have with your Jehovah’s Witness translation. You take words out and add in words that fit your doctrine.

Look at verse 9, Do you think God is going to exalt an angel higher than himself? Jesus is God.
[/quote]

Dude, look at what you are quoting. That DOES NOT SAY JESUS IS GOD. God is the one exaulting him!! He is exaulting him TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.

I am not pulling things out of context, the context agrees with me. Think logically, how could someone exault someone else and be the person being exaulted and the one exaulting. Really? AND AT THE SAME TIME THINK THAT HE IS NOT EQUAL TO THE ONE EXAULTING HIM.