The Church or The Bible

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
241

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

But what we are worshipping isn’t the mere matter that makes up the statue, but the presence of Our Lord that glows within it; as in, for example, the Blessed Sacrament.

[/quote]

So, is this a standard Catholic belief?[/quote]

No, the Eucharist is entirely different. This may be a reference to some “miracle statues” that have shed tears, blood or both.
The Eucharist is the Real Presence.[/quote]

Well isn’t that what we’re talking about? You are correct about the Real Presence.

242

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Aaron, the leader the people turned to while Moses was gone, said that it was a ‘feast to Jehovah (God)’. It is right there.

Also, John 4: 23,24

Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24�??�??�??�??�??�?� God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.

The Israelites KNEW who brought them out of Egypt.

Any scripture in the Bible can be turned any way the reader wants to. Thus the reason there are many many different types of “christians”. However, there can only be one correct way.

Of course, I feel my way of viewing it is correct, thus the reason I don’t use any images to aid in my worship. But, no doubt you guys feel your way is correct to.
[/quote]

Only one correct way, says the man that is farthest out there.[/quote]

I love your bluntness Brother Chris. No sarcasim intended.[/quote]

You are aware that I said we ALL feel we are correct? As a side point, you are also aware that the majority of the people on the earth at one point KNEW the earth was flat right? Round earth. hah. laughable concept. ignorant minority.

I have not once insulted you intentionally. [/quote]

If I insulted you I do apologize.

I know what I am about to say you will find something in the Watch Tower bag of goodies to twist this.

Jesus stated he was God when asked by the Sanhedrin (spelling bad) if he was the Messiah. He did not answer the question I am the Messiah. Jesus states I am. That is what they wanted to hear. Jesus now blasphamies the name of God. God told Moses to tell the Israelites in Egypt that I am sent you. Jesus in those two words states he is God. This is Black and White and there is no middle ground.

[/quote]

I don’t need to twist anything. Throughout the Greek Scriptures, Jesus is referred to as God’s Son.

Phil 2:5

Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6Ã??Ã? who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

I don’t even have to explain this scripture.
[/quote]

This is where we have an issue, and all my Catholic friends, I am Protestant, will back this scripture up. Look at verse 6.

Philippians 2:5-11

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to deathâ??
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

This is the issue I have with your Jehovah’s Witness translation. You take words out and add in words that fit your doctrine.

Look at verse 9, Do you think God is going to exalt an angel higher than himself? Jesus is God.
[/quote]

BTW, verse 8: became obedient to death, even death on a cross!

Obedient shouldn’t even have been here. Because, according to what you said earlier, Jesus didn’t have free will, because he was perfect.

Another thing: Greek word for word of verse 8 -

and to fashion having been found as man he made lowly himself having become obedient until death, of death but of stake;

No cross, just stake. why don’t you like our translation?

243

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

But what we are worshipping isn’t the mere matter that makes up the statue, but the presence of Our Lord that glows within it; as in, for example, the Blessed Sacrament.

[/quote]

So, is this a standard Catholic belief?[/quote]

No, the Eucharist is entirely different. This may be a reference to some “miracle statues” that have shed tears, blood or both.
The Eucharist is the Real Presence.[/quote]

Well isn’t that what we’re talking about? You are correct about the Real Presence.
[/quote]

And you don’t feel that this goes against the 2nd commandment?

244

@honestlifter…

You do see that no one on here has ever taken a step back and tried to take an outsiders view of Christianity. They quote what they’ve been given to quote when they asked others the same question you are asking. Taking the bible for what it says IS primarily why more people have been killed in the name of Christianity. People interpret what they want to out of the bible and do not use logical reasoning or thinking AT ALL!

245

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Aaron, the leader the people turned to while Moses was gone, said that it was a ‘feast to Jehovah (God)’. It is right there.

Also, John 4: 23,24

Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24�??�??�??�??�??�??�?� God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.

The Israelites KNEW who brought them out of Egypt.

Any scripture in the Bible can be turned any way the reader wants to. Thus the reason there are many many different types of “christians”. However, there can only be one correct way.

Of course, I feel my way of viewing it is correct, thus the reason I don’t use any images to aid in my worship. But, no doubt you guys feel your way is correct to.
[/quote]

Only one correct way, says the man that is farthest out there.[/quote]

I love your bluntness Brother Chris. No sarcasim intended.[/quote]

You are aware that I said we ALL feel we are correct? As a side point, you are also aware that the majority of the people on the earth at one point KNEW the earth was flat right? Round earth. hah. laughable concept. ignorant minority.

I have not once insulted you intentionally. [/quote]

If I insulted you I do apologize.

I know what I am about to say you will find something in the Watch Tower bag of goodies to twist this.

Jesus stated he was God when asked by the Sanhedrin (spelling bad) if he was the Messiah. He did not answer the question I am the Messiah. Jesus states I am. That is what they wanted to hear. Jesus now blasphamies the name of God. God told Moses to tell the Israelites in Egypt that I am sent you. Jesus in those two words states he is God. This is Black and White and there is no middle ground.

[/quote]

I don’t need to twist anything. Throughout the Greek Scriptures, Jesus is referred to as God’s Son.

Phil 2:5

Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6Ã???Ã??Ã? who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

I don’t even have to explain this scripture.
[/quote]

This is where we have an issue, and all my Catholic friends, I am Protestant, will back this scripture up. Look at verse 6.

Philippians 2:5-11

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death�¢??
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

This is the issue I have with your Jehovah’s Witness translation. You take words out and add in words that fit your doctrine.

Look at verse 9, Do you think God is going to exalt an angel higher than himself? Jesus is God.
[/quote]

BTW, verse 8: became obedient to death, even death on a cross!

Obedient shouldn’t even have been here. Because, according to what you said earlier, Jesus didn’t have free will, because he was perfect.

Another thing: Greek word for word of verse 8 -

and to fashion having been found as man he made lowly himself having become obedient until death, of death but of stake;

No cross, just stake. why don’t you like our translation?[/quote]

That many jews were killed on crosses and was described the same way. Maybe greks didn’t have a word for cross when they wrote it down.

246

The book The Non-Christian Cross, by John Denham Parsons, states: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross…it is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape.”-London, 1896, pp. 23, 24.

In classical Greek the word (stauros’)primarily denotes an upright stake, or pole, and there is no evidence that the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures used it to designate a stake with a crossbeam.

Google it.

247

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

But what we are worshipping isn’t the mere matter that makes up the statue, but the presence of Our Lord that glows within it; as in, for example, the Blessed Sacrament.

[/quote]

So, is this a standard Catholic belief?[/quote]

No, the Eucharist is entirely different. This may be a reference to some “miracle statues” that have shed tears, blood or both.
The Eucharist is the Real Presence.[/quote]

Well isn’t that what we’re talking about? You are correct about the Real Presence.
[/quote]

And you don’t feel that this goes against the 2nd commandment?[/quote]

Absolutely not.

248

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

This is where we have an issue, and all my Catholic friends, I am Protestant, will back this scripture up. Look at verse 6.

Philippians 2:5-11

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to deathâ??
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

This is the issue I have with your Jehovah’s Witness translation. You take words out and add in words that fit your doctrine.

Look at verse 9, Do you think God is going to exalt an angel higher than himself? Jesus is God.
[/quote]

And this is just you proving Jesus is God. Now you have to fit in the Holy Spirit to make it a true trinity.

249

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

But what we are worshipping isn’t the mere matter that makes up the statue, but the presence of Our Lord that glows within it; as in, for example, the Blessed Sacrament.

[/quote]

So, is this a standard Catholic belief?[/quote]

No, the Eucharist is entirely different. This may be a reference to some “miracle statues” that have shed tears, blood or both.
The Eucharist is the Real Presence.[/quote]

Well isn’t that what we’re talking about? You are correct about the Real Presence.
[/quote]

And you don’t feel that this goes against the 2nd commandment?[/quote]

Absolutely not. [/quote]

OK.

250

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The book The Non-Christian Cross, by John Denham Parsons, states: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross…it is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape.”-London, 1896, pp. 23, 24.

In classical Greek the word (stauros’)primarily denotes an upright stake, or pole, and there is no evidence that the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures used it to designate a stake with a crossbeam.

Google it. [/quote]

This is just pure nonsense. Both stauros and xylon were often used to signify a cross, a tree, a stake, and many other things. To emphasize one or the other on purely linguistic grounds is, well, dishonest.

What all this points out is the danger of focusing only on the Holy Scripture - because customarily, the Romans put Jews to death on a stake with a cross beam, or patibulum, which they were made to carry themselves. This is a matter of indisputable fact.

Finally, really, does matter if it was an actual “cross” as we understand it - or a stake?

251

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The book The Non-Christian Cross, by John Denham Parsons, states: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross…it is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape.”-London, 1896, pp. 23, 24.

In classical Greek the word (stauros’)primarily denotes an upright stake, or pole, and there is no evidence that the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures used it to designate a stake with a crossbeam.

Google it. [/quote]
Okay, so you googled a book written by someone with a similar opinion to your own and you criticize people for doing the same thing with the Bible.

Hey guys, what’s the word for that? I think it might
stem from greek person’s name?

252

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
When Catholics pray to the saints they are using them as intercessors.

They ask the saints to pray to God on their behalf.
[/quote]

1 Tim 2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.

[/quote]

So you have never asked anyone to pray for you?

[/quote]

Personally no, but I wouldn’t see a problem in doing it. why? [/quote]

That is what the Catholics are doing when the approach Mary or the Saints to pray for them.[/quote]

Small difference. They are asking a statue to pray for them, not a real person. And the person the statue represents is dead.[/quote]

Bullshit. You should stop being ignorant.[/quote]

What purpose do statues serve in your worship?
[/quote]

What purpose, well God commanded us to use them in religious context and allowed us to use them in rituals. They help me depict the person or thing that I am recalling. They also help as instructional tool. To commemorate certain events and people.

Even God commanded Moses to make a bronze “fiery-serpent.”

253

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
When Catholics pray to the saints they are using them as intercessors.

They ask the saints to pray to God on their behalf.
[/quote]

1 Tim 2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.

[/quote]

So you have never asked anyone to pray for you?

[/quote]

Personally no, but I wouldn’t see a problem in doing it. why? [/quote]

That is what the Catholics are doing when the approach Mary or the Saints to pray for them.[/quote]

Small difference. They are asking a statue to pray for them, not a real person. And the person the statue represents is dead.[/quote]

Bullshit. You should stop being ignorant.[/quote]

What purpose do statues serve in your worship?
[/quote]

What purpose, well God commanded us to use them in religious context and allowed us to use them in rituals. They help me depict the person or thing that I am recalling. They also help as instructional tool. To commemorate certain events and people.

Even God commanded Moses to make a bronze “fiery-serpent.”

[/quote]

I will definitely leave you to have your opinion. However, do you recall the purpose of the fiery-serpent?

254

[quote]wher0001 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The book The Non-Christian Cross, by John Denham Parsons, states: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross…it is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape.”-London, 1896, pp. 23, 24.

In classical Greek the word (stauros’)primarily denotes an upright stake, or pole, and there is no evidence that the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures used it to designate a stake with a crossbeam.

Google it. [/quote]
Okay, so you googled a book written by someone with a similar opinion to your own and you criticize people for doing the same thing with the Bible.

Hey guys, what’s the word for that? I think it might
stem from greek person’s name?[/quote]

…and I criticize people for doing the SAME THING with the Bible? You mean looking up the original Greek and establishing the original meaning of different words in the Bible?

Also, think back to just 3 posts earlier by you, and tell me what you did.

and finally…“Hey guys”? Is this a discussion or a group attack? I was hoping for the former.

255

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
When Catholics pray to the saints they are using them as intercessors.

They ask the saints to pray to God on their behalf.
[/quote]

1 Tim 2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.

[/quote]

So you have never asked anyone to pray for you?

[/quote]

Personally no, but I wouldn’t see a problem in doing it. why? [/quote]

That is what the Catholics are doing when the approach Mary or the Saints to pray for them.[/quote]

Small difference. They are asking a statue to pray for them, not a real person. And the person the statue represents is dead.[/quote]

Bullshit. You should stop being ignorant.[/quote]

What purpose do statues serve in your worship?
[/quote]

What purpose, well God commanded us to use them in religious context and allowed us to use them in rituals. They help me depict the person or thing that I am recalling. They also help as instructional tool. To commemorate certain events and people.

Even God commanded Moses to make a bronze “fiery-serpent.”

[/quote]

I will definitely leave you to have your opinion. However, do you recall the purpose of the fiery-serpent?[/quote]

8 And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.

My mistake it was not a fiery serpent, but a brazen serpent. It was so when they were bitten by the fiery snakes that they could look upon the statue and live.

256

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The book The Non-Christian Cross, by John Denham Parsons, states: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross…it is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape.”-London, 1896, pp. 23, 24.

In classical Greek the word (stauros’)primarily denotes an upright stake, or pole, and there is no evidence that the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures used it to designate a stake with a crossbeam.

Google it. [/quote]

This is just pure nonsense. Both stauros and xylon were often used to signify a cross, a tree, a stake, and many other things. To emphasize one or the other on purely linguistic grounds is, well, dishonest.

What all this points out is the danger of focusing only on the Holy Scripture - because customarily, the Romans put Jews to death on a stake with a cross beam, or patibulum, which they were made to carry themselves. This is a matter of indisputable fact.

Finally, really, does matter if it was an actual “cross” as we understand it - or a stake?

[/quote]

There! The heat of the matter. Does it really matter. Yes. Yes, it matters because of why I brought it up in the first place. The translation I use was put under attack. That there are words added and taken out to fit my doctrine. In the very verses he quoted it had cross, which today, if you ask the vast majority of Christians refers to a torture set-up involving 2 pieces of wood not just one. Even xylon refers to wood, or tree, or even club. There is ZERO reference to it being ANYTHING BUT a single piece of wood. But images depict Jesus on the aforementioned 2-piece set-up.

My translation was challenged in regards its accuracy. I couldn’t help but point out the irony.

Bottom line there is no proof to the contrary that either word can or should be rendered as a crossbeam setup. This concept was added later.

Also, please, to further answer your question, what does your Bible say at Galatians 3:13?

(why translation is important)

257

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

You mean looking up the original Greek and establishing the original meaning of different words in the Bible?
[/quote]

That’s not what you did. Please don’t pretend otherwise. It makes you look foolish.

258

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The book The Non-Christian Cross, by John Denham Parsons, states: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross…it is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape.”-London, 1896, pp. 23, 24.

In classical Greek the word (stauros’)primarily denotes an upright stake, or pole, and there is no evidence that the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures used it to designate a stake with a crossbeam.

Google it. [/quote]

This is just pure nonsense. Both stauros and xylon were often used to signify a cross, a tree, a stake, and many other things. To emphasize one or the other on purely linguistic grounds is, well, dishonest.

What all this points out is the danger of focusing only on the Holy Scripture - because customarily, the Romans put Jews to death on a stake with a cross beam, or patibulum, which they were made to carry themselves. This is a matter of indisputable fact.

Finally, really, does matter if it was an actual “cross” as we understand it - or a stake?

[/quote]

There! The heat of the matter. Does it really matter. Yes. Yes, it matters because of why I brought it up in the first place. The translation I use was put under attack. That there are words added and taken out to fit my doctrine. In the very verses he quoted it had cross, which today, if you ask the vast majority of Christians refers to a torture set-up involving 2 pieces of wood not just one. Even xylon refers to wood, or tree, or even club. There is ZERO reference to it being ANYTHING BUT a single piece of wood. But images depict Jesus on the aforementioned 2-piece set-up.

My translation was challenged in regards its accuracy. I couldn’t help but point out the irony.

Bottom line there is no proof to the contrary that either word can or should be rendered as a crossbeam setup. This concept was added later.

Also, please, to further answer your question, what does your Bible say at Galatians 3:13?

(why translation is important)[/quote]

No, what it points out is the folly of sola scriptura. You are misleading yourself and (potentially) others.

None of what you said above really addresses what I said in my post; so I won’t simply re-iterate.

259

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

I will definitely leave you to have your opinion. However, do you recall the purpose of the fiery-serpent?[/quote]

8 And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.

My mistake it was not a fiery serpent, but a brazen serpent. It was so when they were bitten by the fiery snakes that they could look upon the statue and live.[/quote]

That is true. they looked upon it to get healed. how does that tie in with your use of statues? Because as we know, God commanded the serpent be destroyed when it started to be used in worship. - 2 Kings 18:4,5

260

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The book The Non-Christian Cross, by John Denham Parsons, states: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross…it is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape.”-London, 1896, pp. 23, 24.

In classical Greek the word (stauros’)primarily denotes an upright stake, or pole, and there is no evidence that the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures used it to designate a stake with a crossbeam.

Google it. [/quote]

This is just pure nonsense. Both stauros and xylon were often used to signify a cross, a tree, a stake, and many other things. To emphasize one or the other on purely linguistic grounds is, well, dishonest.

What all this points out is the danger of focusing only on the Holy Scripture - because customarily, the Romans put Jews to death on a stake with a cross beam, or patibulum, which they were made to carry themselves. This is a matter of indisputable fact.

Finally, really, does matter if it was an actual “cross” as we understand it - or a stake?

[/quote]

There! The heat of the matter. Does it really matter. Yes. Yes, it matters because of why I brought it up in the first place. The translation I use was put under attack. That there are words added and taken out to fit my doctrine. In the very verses he quoted it had cross, which today, if you ask the vast majority of Christians refers to a torture set-up involving 2 pieces of wood not just one. Even xylon refers to wood, or tree, or even club. There is ZERO reference to it being ANYTHING BUT a single piece of wood. But images depict Jesus on the aforementioned 2-piece set-up.

My translation was challenged in regards its accuracy. I couldn’t help but point out the irony.

Bottom line there is no proof to the contrary that either word can or should be rendered as a crossbeam setup. This concept was added later.

Also, please, to further answer your question, what does your Bible say at Galatians 3:13?

(why translation is important)[/quote]

No, what it points out is the folly of sola scriptura. You are misleading yourself and (potentially) others.

None of what you said above really addresses what I said in my post; so I won’t simply re-iterate.
[/quote]

There was prophecy involving the use of a stake in Jesus death. Therefore, how he died was absolutely critical. De 21:23.