[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
When Catholics pray to the saints they are using them as intercessors.
They ask the saints to pray to God on their behalf.
[/quote]
1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.
[/quote]
So you have never asked anyone to pray for you?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
When Catholics pray to the saints they are using them as intercessors.
They ask the saints to pray to God on their behalf.
[/quote]
1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.
[/quote]
So you have never asked anyone to pray for you?
[/quote]
Personally no, but I wouldn’t see a problem in doing it. why?
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
When Catholics pray to the saints they are using them as intercessors.
They ask the saints to pray to God on their behalf.
[/quote]
1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.
[/quote]
So you have never asked anyone to pray for you?
[/quote]
Personally no, but I wouldn’t see a problem in doing it. why? [/quote]
That is what the Catholics are doing when the approach Mary or the Saints to pray for them.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
When Catholics pray to the saints they are using them as intercessors.
They ask the saints to pray to God on their behalf.
[/quote]
1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.
[/quote]
So you have never asked anyone to pray for you?
[/quote]
Personally no, but I wouldn’t see a problem in doing it. why? [/quote]
That is what the Catholics are doing when the approach Mary or the Saints to pray for them.[/quote]
Small difference. They are asking a statue to pray for them, not a real person. And the person the statue represents is dead.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
When Catholics pray to the saints they are using them as intercessors.
They ask the saints to pray to God on their behalf.
[/quote]
1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.
[/quote]
So you have never asked anyone to pray for you?
[/quote]
Personally no, but I wouldn’t see a problem in doing it. why? [/quote]
Secondly, we are asked to carry each others burdens. This is how we help out each other. We pray for each other. Gal 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
I will use 1 Tim 2 and expand it to include the verses before verse 5.
First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
I took this from the New American Standard Bible which is a word for word translation of the Greek texts.
God asks us to pray for all men and verse 5 states “the man Christ Jesus”, and not “a man, Christ Jesus.” Jesus is more that just a man. Jesus was the Son of Man. Both Fully Man and Fully God. Jesus is who he says he is, or he is just a liar.
John 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
When Catholics pray to the saints they are using them as intercessors.
They ask the saints to pray to God on their behalf.
[/quote]
1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.
[/quote]
So you have never asked anyone to pray for you?
[/quote]
Personally no, but I wouldn’t see a problem in doing it. why? [/quote]
Secondly, we are asked to carry each others burdens. This is how we help out each other. We pray for each other. Gal 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
I will use 1 Tim 2 and expand it to include the verses before verse 5.
First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
I took this from the New American Standard Bible which is a word for word translation of the Greek texts.
God asks us to pray for all men and verse 5 states “the man Christ Jesus”, and not “a man, Christ Jesus.” Jesus is more that just a man. Jesus was the Son of Man. Both Fully Man and Fully God. Jesus is who he says he is, or he is just a liar.
John 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
[/quote]
2 things: was this to agree with me or disagree?
2nd thing: you are telling me that Jesus is God’s Son, but is also God, but is also man?
Are you getting this off the part that says that the father is union with me and i am in union with the father?
How can someone be God and then also be God’s son?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I took this from the New American Standard Bible which is a word for word translation of the Greek texts.
[/quote]
If this was a true word for word, it wouldn’t sound proper, I have a greek interlinear bible. and second, it would have God’s name in it, which it has replaced with LORD. (Read Psalms 83:18 for one example)
John 14:10 (Greek word for word)
“Not you are believing that I in the Father and the Father in me is? The sayings which I am saying to you from myself not I am speaking; the but Father in me remaining is doing the works of him.”
10 verses later. John 14:20 - New American Standard Bible
In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
So we are all God then I would have to assume?
It is obvious that you do not believe that Jesus is both God and Man. I will ask one of my questions a different way. Do the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus before taking human form was the Archangel Michael?
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
10 verses later. John 14:20 - New American Standard Bible
In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
So we are all God then I would have to assume?[/quote]
I will take this tounge in check. I will say that Jesus is fully God and Fully Man. Not being fully God would make him just a sinful human like you and me. But since Jesus did not have a human father do donate his sinful sperm then he could be sinless correct?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
10 verses later. John 14:20 - New American Standard Bible
In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
So we are all God then I would have to assume?[/quote]
I will take this tounge in check. I will say that Jesus is fully God and Fully Man. Not being fully God would make him just a sinful human like you and me. But since Jesus did not have a human father do donate his sinful sperm then he could be sinless correct?[/quote]
Are angels perfect? (sinless)
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
10 verses later. John 14:20 - New American Standard Bible
In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
So we are all God then I would have to assume?[/quote]
I will take this tounge in check. I will say that Jesus is fully God and Fully Man. Not being fully God would make him just a sinful human like you and me. But since Jesus did not have a human father do donate his sinful sperm then he could be sinless correct?[/quote]
Are angels perfect? (sinless)[/quote]
Is Satan/Lucifer the Angel of Light?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
10 verses later. John 14:20 - New American Standard Bible
In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
So we are all God then I would have to assume?[/quote]
I will take this tounge in check. I will say that Jesus is fully God and Fully Man. Not being fully God would make him just a sinful human like you and me. But since Jesus did not have a human father do donate his sinful sperm then he could be sinless correct?[/quote]
Are angels perfect? (sinless)[/quote]
Is Satan/Lucifer the Angel of Light?[/quote]
Is that an answer to my question or a subject change?
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Pat, do you use images in worship? And if so, what purpose to they serve?[/quote]
Part of what we do as Catholics with regard to prayer is repetition. The hypnotic rhythmic cadences are conducive to meditation; we use imagery for the same reason. It helps us keep our minds on the prize. For instance, if you’re praying and meditating on the passion, you can hold a crucifix in your hand or stare at a depiction and imagine what he went through, what each nail must have felt like, what the crown of thorns may have been like, etc. Prayer, meditation and imagery are all designed to help us pray better, deeper. Imagery is a tool. We donâ??t pray to an image, we use the image to pray to the Lord, better. That is their purpose, and quite franly they are pretty. You should check out the artistry and craftsmanship of the cathedrals in Europeâ?¦They are simply stunning.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
10 verses later. John 14:20 - New American Standard Bible
In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
So we are all God then I would have to assume?[/quote]
I will take this tounge in check. I will say that Jesus is fully God and Fully Man. Not being fully God would make him just a sinful human like you and me. But since Jesus did not have a human father do donate his sinful sperm then he could be sinless correct?[/quote]
Are angels perfect? (sinless)[/quote]
Is Satan/Lucifer the Angel of Light?[/quote]
Is that an answer to my question or a subject change?[/quote]
I am doing the exact same thing you are doing by asking a question instead of answering questions. At least my question answers your question.
Why don’t you answer my question about the Archangel Micheal being Jesus?
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
When Catholics pray to the saints they are using them as intercessors.
They ask the saints to pray to God on their behalf.
[/quote]
1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.
[/quote]
So you have never asked anyone to pray for you?
[/quote]
Personally no, but I wouldn’t see a problem in doing it. why? [/quote]
That is what the Catholics are doing when the approach Mary or the Saints to pray for them.[/quote]
Small difference. They are asking a statue to pray for them, not a real person. And the person the statue represents is dead.[/quote]
We don’t pray to status…Not sure how much more clear I can be.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Aaron, the leader the people turned to while Moses was gone, said that it was a ‘feast to Jehovah (God)’. It is right there.
Also, John 4: 23,24
Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24� God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.
The Israelites KNEW who brought them out of Egypt.
Any scripture in the Bible can be turned any way the reader wants to. Thus the reason there are many many different types of “christians”. However, there can only be one correct way.
Of course, I feel my way of viewing it is correct, thus the reason I don’t use any images to aid in my worship. But, no doubt you guys feel your way is correct to.
[/quote]
Only one correct way, says the man that is farthest out there.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
When Catholics pray to the saints they are using them as intercessors.
They ask the saints to pray to God on their behalf.
[/quote]
1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.
[/quote]
So you have never asked anyone to pray for you?
[/quote]
Personally no, but I wouldn’t see a problem in doing it. why? [/quote]
That is what the Catholics are doing when the approach Mary or the Saints to pray for them.[/quote]
Small difference. They are asking a statue to pray for them, not a real person. And the person the statue represents is dead.[/quote]
Bullshit. You should stop being ignorant.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
10 verses later. John 14:20 - New American Standard Bible
In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
So we are all God then I would have to assume?[/quote]
I will take this tounge in check. I will say that Jesus is fully God and Fully Man. Not being fully God would make him just a sinful human like you and me. But since Jesus did not have a human father do donate his sinful sperm then he could be sinless correct?[/quote]
Are angels perfect? (sinless)[/quote]
Is Satan/Lucifer the Angel of Light?[/quote]
Is that an answer to my question or a subject change?[/quote]
I am doing the exact same thing you are doing by asking a question instead of answering questions. At least my question answers your question.
Why don’t you answer my question about the Archangel Micheal being Jesus?[/quote]
you said him not being God would make him sinful. angels are not sinful and are not God.
What point will answering your question about michael make?
Catholics don’t make the mistake of saying that spirit is fundamentally good - and matter is fundamentally evil.
^ That is heretical for many reasons, including that the most evil thing in the universe is Satan, a spiritual being.
Matter is fundamentally good - it’s the Fall that changed this.
Matter can be sanctified - that is to say, it can be Holy. Catholicism is a sacramental religion - matter can be a “vehicle” for the Holy.
But what we are worshipping isn’t the mere matter that makes up the statue, but the presence of Our Lord that glows within it; as in, for example, the Blessed Sacrament.
@Pat - I forget where you said this, but I disagree that Aquinas “rippped off” material from Aristotle - Aquinas was working to synthesize the best thinking and theology of the past. Where did you get this idea?