[quote]Makavali wrote:<<< your interpretation of Christianity. >>>[/quote]Which interpretation would that be?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:<<< your interpretation of Christianity. >>>[/quote]Which interpretation would that be?
[/quote]
“Your interpretation”
Gee, I wonder which one it is.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:<<< Have I not been determined by Almighty God to burn in eternal hell? >>>[/quote]Ohhh my Lord Jesus give me patience with this man. I am going to try this yet another time for you Pat. Please listen this time. PLEASE? I beg of thee. I have no idea, none whatsoever WHO are the elect are. I DO NOT KNOW where you will end up. Did you hear that? I DO know that what you profess today IS NOT the gospel of Jesus Christ. A self conscious deliberate repentance from sin and true faith in the REAL Jesus alone is THE one and only way to avoid the condemnation that every single last child of Adam is born into.
I DO NOT KNOW HOW ANYBODY will end up ahead of time. I DO know that the Word of almighty God is replete with simple descriptions that tell us what believers and unbelievers look like. I don’t judge. God does in His word. I know them by their fruits because out of the abundance of their mouths their hearts SPEAK (Luke 6:45). Fruits ARE NOT charitable works primarily, any reprobate heathen can do them and many do. They are purity of belief, life and conduct in committed conformity to God’s revealed will as commanded by the Lord Himself in His Word.
[/quote]
So if I continue to profess the faith as a Catholic, will I or will I not end up in hell?
Part deux, Did you or did you not condemn all Mormons as going to hell? For that matter any non-Christians?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:<<< Have I not been determined by Almighty God to burn in eternal hell? >>>[/quote]Ohhh my Lord Jesus give me patience with this man. I am going to try this yet another time for you Pat. Please listen this time. PLEASE? I beg of thee. I have no idea, none whatsoever WHO are the elect are. I DO NOT KNOW where you will end up. Did you hear that? I DO know that what you profess today IS NOT the gospel of Jesus Christ. A self conscious deliberate repentance from sin and true faith in the REAL Jesus alone is THE one and only way to avoid the condemnation that every single last child of Adam is born into.
I DO NOT KNOW HOW ANYBODY will end up ahead of time. I DO know that the Word of almighty God is replete with simple descriptions that tell us what believers and unbelievers look like. I don’t judge. God does in His word. I know them by their fruits because out of the abundance of their mouths their hearts SPEAK (Luke 6:45). Fruits ARE NOT charitable works primarily, any reprobate heathen can do them and many do. They are purity of belief, life and conduct in committed conformity to God’s revealed will as commanded by the Lord Himself in His Word.
[/quote]
Translation:
Tiribulus KNOWS you will be damned to suffer forever unless you change your mind and start agreeing with him.
Fundamentalist?
Oh yeah.
[quote]pat wrote:<<< So if I continue to profess the faith as a Catholic, will I or will I not end up in hell?
Part deux, Did you or did you not condemn all Mormons as going to hell? For that matter any non-Christians?[/quote]Neither of these is the question under discussion and you know it. I’ll try again though. There is one God, one gospel, one Lord, one savior. Those abiding in the true Christ as savior AND Lord are by that fact shown to be the eternally elect of the father.
Many who do not even believe in election ARE still the elect and worship and serve the true God because God IS that merciful and gracious. For the one thousandth time. Our church is working with 500 others in the Detroit area. Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Lutherans all manner of independents with every flavor of protestant (OK, non catholic, sorry baptists =] )theology ever to see the light of day. What we DO agree on is the core gospel truths centering on the ONE true God.
Following from that by definition is the utterly clear and unmistakable biblical truth that there are 2 kinds of people in this world. Those who have been born dead in Adam, raised to new life in the one true Christ AND KNOW IT, and those who have been born dead in Adam who have not. People do NOT go to hell, also for the 100th time, BECAUSE they are Catholic, Mormon, JW or anything else. They go to hell because they were born dead in Adam and have not been born AGAIN, having been crucified with Christ and raised together with Him.
False religions like Catholicisms or Mormonism do not CAUSE anybody to go to hell. They were going there anyway. They are simply satanic deceptions of false security used by the devil to help keep them that way. It is bar none, far and away his most successful tactic of all time. 20-25,000 Christians met downtown together in April representing these 500 churches and many were not Calvinists. 98% of them would read this post, shrug their shoulders and agree. “Of course” they would say with puzzled look on their face. “Yo have to ask me this? This is like the simple gospel dude”. Ya know the one that Paul said the simplicity of which he was afraid the Corinthians were led astray from.
Yes Pat. The self consciously born again true worshipers of the one true God that call on Christ by name from their hearts are ALONE saved from the judgment of hell. The fact that this even has to be said is proof positive of just how far the church has fallen from the faith once for all delivered to the saints. You will have no idea what I’m talkin about which is the point. Your catholicism is just a symptom.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
False religions like Catholicisms or Mormonism do not CAUSE anybody to go to hell. They were going there anyway. They are simply satanic deceptions of false security used by the devil to help keep them that way.
[/quote]
That makes no sense. If they are going to hell anyway, how could Satan keep them that way? That implies that they have a choice to do something else. How could Satan “keep” them on the path to hell if God has already doomed them to hell? That’s like a person dying and I tell you that I am keeping them dead.
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
False religions like Catholicisms or Mormonism do not CAUSE anybody to go to hell. They were going there anyway. They are simply satanic deceptions of false security used by the devil to help keep them that way.
[/quote]
That makes no sense. If they are going to hell anyway, how could Satan keep them that way? That implies that they have a choice to do something else. How could Satan “keep” them on the path to hell if God has already doomed them to hell? That’s like a person dying and I tell you that I am keeping them dead.
[/quote]
He does have a point there Tirib. So, if false religion does not cause someone to go to hell, what does?
Being conceived and born in Adam and then living a life of death in him is what causes them to go to hell. Paul says in 1st Corinthians 15 that “as in Adam ALL die, so in Christ, the last Adam, all will be made alive.” Before anybody jumps on this, Paul is clearly NOT saying literally that everybody will be made alive because he everywhere describes multitudes who won’t. All that will be made alive will be made such in Christ or not at all is his point, just like the whole rest of the bible.
God orders ALL things after the purpose of His own will (Ephesians 1). Including false religion, every form and instance of evil and Satan himself. Once again, I believe the Westminster divines had it as right as any mere mortals ever will while on this earth. http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/westminster_conf_of_faith.html
[quote]CHAPTER III.
Of God’s Eternal Decree.
I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.
IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.
V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.
VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.
VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel. [/quote] AND [quote]CHAPTER V.
Of Providence.
I. God, the great Creator of all things, doth uphold, direct dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, according to his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will, to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.
II. Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly, yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.
III. God, in his ordinary providence, maketh use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at his pleasure.
IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that it extendeth itself even to the first Fall, and all other sins of angels and men, and that not by a bare permission, but such as hath joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, and otherwise ordering and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to his own holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceedeth only from the creature, and not from God; who being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.
V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God, doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold temptations and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.
VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous judge, for former sins, doth blind and harden; from them he not only withholdeth his grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon their hearts; but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had; and exposeth them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin; and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan; whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God useth for the softening of others.
VII. As the providence of God doth, in general, reach to all creatures, so, after a most special manner, it taketh care of his Church, and disposeth all things to the good thereof. [/quote] And [quote]CHAPTER IX.
Of Free Will.
I. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
IV. When God converts a sinner and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.
V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutable free to good alone, in the state of glory only.[/quote] YES!!! All of this is in the bible JUST LIKE THIS when it is allowed to speak without forcing goofball synthetic doctrines upon it. I see it plain as day. Clear as the sunshine beaming through my window as I type this only infinitely brighter.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
blah blah blah
[/quote]
God saves who he wants to save and damns who he wants to damn. And there is nothing we can do about it. Prayer, repentance, faith, good works, etc. - none of it makes a difference with regard to who God saves and who he damns. Yes or no?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Being conceived and born in Adam and then living a life of death in him is what causes them to go to hell. [/quote]
Was Adam a special case then? What caused Adam to fall? I agree with you for the most part, but did Adam have a choice (free will) to obey or disobey God? Or in other words was mankind doomed to fall from grace at its inception?
[quote]
I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[/quote]
This makes no sense… and amounts to saying God ordained everything and is only responsible for what we call the good parts.
It seems that if the liberty and contingency of second causes exist then so does choice (as in I choose God or I don’t).
I personally am not comfortable to say God ordained Lucifer to rebel and man to sin. To create a world with the real possibility of love (an act of the will) is to create a world with the real possibility of sin (an act of the will).
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:<<< I personally am not comfortable to say God ordained Lucifer to rebel and man to sin. >>>[/quote]WELL SHUT MY MOUTH!!! If ya’ll ain’t comfertabul with it jist kaynt ba troo =] Psst, here’s a little secret. (whispering) The God who numbers the atoms in all His vast cosmos after commanding them to exist from nothing while perpetually sustaining them by the word of His power could not possibly care less what you… or I, am comfortable with. (end of whispering) He does all His good pleasure in heaven and earth. If He didn’t want it? It ain’t happnin. This is all over the bible. God defines ALL ELSE. Nothing, NOTHING, outside of Himself defines Him. Yet we are free and responsible.
Try this… again.
Romans 9
[quote]18-So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19-You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”[/quote] How can this be any clearer. God has mercy or hardens as he darn well pleases and shaddup if you don’t like it.
Jame 1:13
[quote]Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. [/quote]However God does not induce evil in anyone. WHAT!!! How can these both be true? Once again I have no idea LOL! I just know that’s what it says and God cannot lie. Whole volumes sporting syllable by syllable scholarly exegesis of every last related passage of the bible have been written on this. This is obviously just one tiny example. The true gospel of grace requires the very grace it preaches to so much as even be comprehended I’m convinced. (I can’t help how arrogant that sounds)
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
WELL SHUT MY MOUTH!!! If ya’ll ain’t comfertabul with it jist kaynt ba troo =] [/quote]
That is not at all what I intended. Try it this way, I cannot tell others that it is so as I have no conviction of this.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:Psst, here’s a little secret. The God who numbers the atoms in all His vast cosmos after commanding them to exist from nothing while perpetually sustaining them by the word of His power could not possibly care less what you… or I, am comfortable with. [/quote] Is this why He listened to Abraham pleading with Him about the destruction of Sodom and with Moses about leaving a remnant of Israel?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote: He does all His good pleasure in heaven and earth. If He didn’t want it? It ain’t happnin. This is all over the bible. God defines ALL ELSE. Nothing, NOTHING, outside of Himself defines Him. Yet we are free and responsible. [/quote] I am sure that what God does pleases Him and I am also sure we are free and responsible. Beyond this I am sure that God does no evil and is sovreign, but I will never try to encapsulate this all into saying God ordained evil.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Try this… again.
Romans 9
Jame 1:13
[/quote]
Can and do read thanks!
I agree it makes no sense…
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
I agree it makes no sense…[/quote]Just addressing this for the moment. Please explain further if you will. Are you saying that both of these are true, but do not bow to what is normally accepted as logic?
EDIT: Also, to the LDS guy. Your questions are being answered in this dialog with Jake. (I hope) I’m not ignoring you. I wouldn’t do that. I believe you are asking honest questions too. My audience is not primarily those we see posting in these threads anyway.
What does it mean Jake that Christ was the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?”. Before sin occurred in time as far as the Father’s plan was concerned, He was already slain. Why?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
I agree it makes no sense…[/quote]Just addressing this for the moment. Please explain further if you will. Are you saying that both of these are true, but do not bow to what is normally accepted as logic?
EDIT: Also, to the LDS guy. Your questions are being answered in this dialog with Jake. (I hope) I’m not ignoring you. I wouldn’t do that. I believe you are asking honest questions too. My audience is not primarily those we see posting in these threads anyway.
What does it mean Jake that Christ was the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?”. Before sin occurred in time as far as the Father’s plan was concerned, He was already slain. Why?
[/quote]
God can know the result while choosing to not-know the individual choices of his creations to lead to that result.
Why is it that THIS is impossible for God, but your version is not.
While I’m sure you are absolutely certain your interpretation of Romans 9 is the true one, there are other interpretations that came from other (human) authorities and who is to say yours is right unless we regard zeal as evidence.
The idea, your idea (yeah, I know what you’ll say to that) of predetermination makes vast swathes of the Bible incomprehensible, senseless messes that you conveniently explain with, “Read Romans 9, particularly verses 19-20.” And, “How does that work? I have no idea.”
I’ll say again what I’ve said before, and you will dismiss it again, but here it is: It makes a whole lot more sense to look at Romans 9 in the greater context of the Bible, than to take the Bible and shove it any way it will fit into the context of Romans 9.
I don’t think the bible is all correct or a governing code of ethics, but it does represent what is a good general way to go about life. All the good things in life are represented by GOD in his/hers/its’ many names. The general consensus of all religion is that it is basically a code of consequential ethics, which is the study of what is moral and the consequences of not being moral. So each religion is a different cultures way of teaching the moral codes by which to live by. The opposite of this is the devil, he/she/its’ job in all religions is to represent what is NOT an ethical/moral way to live you’re life so the distinction between the two is evident in the way each culture defines what this entity does. In essence, the only way to distinguish between each of the entities involved is to have faith in their belief. If you don’t believe in a higher intelligence or a spiritual being than this does not mean you are not moral or do not understand moral behavior, it just means you get you’re understanding of morality from the experiences in you’re life.
Basically it comes down to an individuals “faith” in what they believe. Think of it this way, there is no actual ‘scientific’ evidence that smoking cigarettes causes cancer BUT there is plenty of ‘statistical’ evidence that it does…so OK there is no scientific evidence that there is a higher being/spirit/entity or GOD or whatever you want to call it, but there is nearly 7 billion people on the earth and all cultures have a belief in a higher being/God/spirit/entity and its always associated with what is good, so the statistical evidence would suggest that he/she/it exists and is not bad thus not representative of the devil. But everyone to his/her own.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I’ve skimmed the last couple pages of this thread and want to ask:
There are ~30,000 different sects of Christianity. Is the general belief by each sect that all the other sects are being falsely led by the devil?[/quote]
I can’t speak for others, but for a Catholic you have to be baptised (in nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti) by water and spirit and you have to die in a state of grace.
For the led by the devil: All lies come from the Devil. That said, Protestants do usually share in partial salvific truth, that allows them to share in some kind of communion with the Church. However, that doesn’t mean they’ll be saved just because they share in salvific truth, it just helps them. If they die in a state of grace, which can be done by non-Catholics by being fully after the heart of God and having a perfect contrite heart. That is quite the exception though.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
There is one God, one gospel, one Lord, one savior.
[/quote]
One baptism, one Church. 
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
WELL SHUT MY MOUTH!!!
[/quote]
Please do. I don’t take pleasure in hearing blaspheme against God. Lucifer acted freely against God’s authority and he was not ordained to disobey Him.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
I agree it makes no sense…[/quote]Just addressing this for the moment. Please explain further if you will. Are you saying that both of these are true, but do not bow to what is normally accepted as logic?
EDIT: Also, to the LDS guy. Your questions are being answered in this dialog with Jake. (I hope) I’m not ignoring you. I wouldn’t do that. I believe you are asking honest questions too. My audience is not primarily those we see posting in these threads anyway.
What does it mean Jake that Christ was the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?”. Before sin occurred in time as far as the Father’s plan was concerned, He was already slain. Why?
[/quote]
God can know the result while choosing to not-know the individual choices of his creations to lead to that result.
Why is it that THIS is impossible for God, but your version is not.
While I’m sure you are absolutely certain your interpretation of Romans 9 is the true one, there are other interpretations that came from other (human) authorities and who is to say yours is right unless we regard zeal as evidence.
The idea, your idea (yeah, I know what you’ll say to that) of predetermination makes vast swathes of the Bible incomprehensible, senseless messes that you conveniently explain with, “Read Romans 9, particularly verses 19-20.” And, “How does that work? I have no idea.”
I’ll say again what I’ve said before, and you will dismiss it again, but here it is: It makes a whole lot more sense to look at Romans 9 in the greater context of the Bible, than to take the Bible and shove it any way it will fit into the context of Romans 9. [/quote]I didn’t see this. I’ll do my best to get to it. It’s not just Romans 9 man. It’s all over both testaments. It’s just that Romans 9 so clearly and specifically answers the most common objection that it renders interpretation unnecessary. The doctrine of God I espouse, far from rendering ANY part of the bible incomprehensible, brings the whole of the bible to true life right before your eyes along with all of epistemological reality in general.