The Christian God: How do you know he's the good guy?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]JESGPY wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JESGPY wrote:
All gods are the same one.
All religions teach the same principles in different ways, even the pagan ones.
In fact the Catholic Religion incorporated many of this gods and made them saints.

Its the human beings that fuck up religions.

There is no God and Devil,
No good or bad.
They are just degrees of the same thing.
There only i cause and effect.
And most important.
GOd is not a person.
[/quote]

Many believers fundamentally disagree with you. Who is right, and how do you know?
[/quote]

They are all fundamentally right.
They are just so fanatized, and many times taught that they only hold the truth, so they only believe they are right.
And to that that the human made conflict between religions and you great more fanatism and more belive in “i am right - you are wrong”[/quote]

You base this on what exactly? Sounds like you’ve lumped all theists as fundamentalist nuts. I could lump all atheists as murdering psychopaths because some atheists were, but that wouldn’t be fair…

42

[quote]JESGPY wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JESGPY wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JESGPY wrote:
All gods are the same one.
All religions teach the same principles in different ways, even the pagan ones.
In fact the Catholic Religion incorporated many of this gods and made them saints.

Its the human beings that fuck up religions.

There is no God and Devil,
No good or bad.
They are just degrees of the same thing.
There only i cause and effect.
And most important.
GOd is not a person.
[/quote]

Many believers fundamentally disagree with you. Who is right, and how do you know?
[/quote]

They are all fundamentally right.
They are just so fanatized, and many times taught that they only hold the truth, so they only believe they are right.
And to that that the human made conflict between religions and you great more fanatism and more belive in “i am right - you are wrong”[/quote]

So when Mormons pray sincerely to god, and are told that he appeared to Joseph Smith on a beautiful spring morning in 1820, this actually happened?
[/quote]

I said they all are “FUNDAMENTALLY RIGHT”
that means that all share same principles.

Mormons pray to god. Not to a story. Maybe dont realize that.
The story is made to have a common base between them.
The background of religions are made to sustain them
The stories they add to that may or may not be true.
But the god they worship is the same.

Read The Kybalion and yoo’ll get it. But you need a open mind[/quote]

Classic example in this very thread. Joab says Mormons worship a different god. You say they worship the same god. Who is right, and HOW DO YOU KNOW?

43

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
This is a question to all Christians out there (but Muslims or Jewish people are free to respond as well):

How do you know the God you support (the God from the Bible) is this good guy and not the evil guy? See, there is a fundamental issue here: the only source that supports claims that your God is the good one is the Bible. The Bible was written centuries ago by relatively unknown sources.

So how do you know you’re not being duped? What if the devil is actually the good one?

How does one resolve this issue?[/quote]
Ill answer your question philosophically, God being the greatest being conceivable will have the property of being necessary, non-contingent and his nature being the epitome of moral perfection and goodness. Contingent beings like satan do not have God’s nature of moral perfection and goodness so the only good guy is God.[/quote]

I’ve asked the same question, and am not sure your post addresses it.

Millions of people have faith in religions that logically cannot all be correct. They worship different gods, yet are utterly convinced their god has told them they are correct.

This proves people have the capacity to devoutly believe in false gods.

So how do you know your particular god is the real one?[/quote]
My post does address it in some way that it eliminates everything but monotheism, why the Christian God? Had God decided not to create anything he would still be love and this is shown perfectly in his eternal nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Do you think Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Calvanists, and Baptists all worship the same god and share the same core beliefs about that god?[/quote]
Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons have fundamentally different view of God’s nature than the other three, so no.[/quote]

So who is right, and how do you know? Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as convinced as you are that god has revealed himself to them. [/quote]
Mormon’s maybe, JW’s claim no divine inspiration, just biblical interpretation. That being said anybody who claims they interact with the creator of existence are interacting with God, how they interact maybe different, and it may be right or wrong, but the God is the creator and the creator is God. The only one’s who don’t do this to my knowledge are buhddists who can’t be bothered to answer the significant questions. They, weirdly, have no interest, therefore interact with the metaphysical at a lower level.

44

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
This is a question to all Christians out there (but Muslims or Jewish people are free to respond as well):

How do you know the God you support (the God from the Bible) is this good guy and not the evil guy? See, there is a fundamental issue here: the only source that supports claims that your God is the good one is the Bible. The Bible was written centuries ago by relatively unknown sources.

So how do you know you’re not being duped? What if the devil is actually the good one?

How does one resolve this issue?[/quote]
Ill answer your question philosophically, God being the greatest being conceivable will have the property of being necessary, non-contingent and his nature being the epitome of moral perfection and goodness. Contingent beings like satan do not have God’s nature of moral perfection and goodness so the only good guy is God.[/quote]

I’ve asked the same question, and am not sure your post addresses it.

Millions of people have faith in religions that logically cannot all be correct. They worship different gods, yet are utterly convinced their god has told them they are correct.

This proves people have the capacity to devoutly believe in false gods.

So how do you know your particular god is the real one?[/quote]
My post does address it in some way that it eliminates everything but monotheism, why the Christian God? Had God decided not to create anything he would still be love and this is shown perfectly in his eternal nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Do you think Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Calvanists, and Baptists all worship the same god and share the same core beliefs about that god?[/quote]
Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons have fundamentally different view of God’s nature than the other three, so no.[/quote]

So who is right, and how do you know? Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as convinced as you are that god has revealed himself to them. [/quote]
When you have monotheism and God having all perfections that are essential to his nature such as love and the Logos which the word logic comes from it follows that the Mormon and Jehovah’s Witnesses view of God is fundamentally wrong.[/quote]

It follows according to whom? Where is the objective proof, rather than the subjective claim that your interpretation is the right one?[/quote]
Transcendental, Ontological, Moral, Cosmological, Teleological arguments are sufficient to show all other conception of god(s) are wrong.

45

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
This is a question to all Christians out there (but Muslims or Jewish people are free to respond as well):

How do you know the God you support (the God from the Bible) is this good guy and not the evil guy? See, there is a fundamental issue here: the only source that supports claims that your God is the good one is the Bible. The Bible was written centuries ago by relatively unknown sources.

So how do you know you’re not being duped? What if the devil is actually the good one?

How does one resolve this issue?[/quote]
Ill answer your question philosophically, God being the greatest being conceivable will have the property of being necessary, non-contingent and his nature being the epitome of moral perfection and goodness. Contingent beings like satan do not have God’s nature of moral perfection and goodness so the only good guy is God.[/quote]

I’ve asked the same question, and am not sure your post addresses it.

Millions of people have faith in religions that logically cannot all be correct. They worship different gods, yet are utterly convinced their god has told them they are correct.

This proves people have the capacity to devoutly believe in false gods.

So how do you know your particular god is the real one?[/quote]
My post does address it in some way that it eliminates everything but monotheism, why the Christian God? Had God decided not to create anything he would still be love and this is shown perfectly in his eternal nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Do you think Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Calvanists, and Baptists all worship the same god and share the same core beliefs about that god?[/quote]
Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons have fundamentally different view of God’s nature than the other three, so no.[/quote]

So who is right, and how do you know? Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as convinced as you are that god has revealed himself to them. [/quote]
Mormon’s maybe, JW’s claim no divine inspiration, just biblical interpretation. That being said anybody who claims they interact with the creator of existence are interacting with God, how they interact maybe different, and it may be right or wrong, but the God is the creator and the creator is God. The only one’s who don’t do this to my knowledge are buhddists who can’t be bothered to answer the significant questions. They, weirdly, have no interest, therefore interact with the metaphysical at a lower level.[/quote]

So people can get answers from god that really aren’t from god? If Mormons believe god has told them Joseph Smith saw god in 1820, are they right or wrong?

46

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
This is a question to all Christians out there (but Muslims or Jewish people are free to respond as well):

How do you know the God you support (the God from the Bible) is this good guy and not the evil guy? See, there is a fundamental issue here: the only source that supports claims that your God is the good one is the Bible. The Bible was written centuries ago by relatively unknown sources.

So how do you know you’re not being duped? What if the devil is actually the good one?

How does one resolve this issue?[/quote]
Ill answer your question philosophically, God being the greatest being conceivable will have the property of being necessary, non-contingent and his nature being the epitome of moral perfection and goodness. Contingent beings like satan do not have God’s nature of moral perfection and goodness so the only good guy is God.[/quote]

I’ve asked the same question, and am not sure your post addresses it.

Millions of people have faith in religions that logically cannot all be correct. They worship different gods, yet are utterly convinced their god has told them they are correct.

This proves people have the capacity to devoutly believe in false gods.

So how do you know your particular god is the real one?[/quote]
My post does address it in some way that it eliminates everything but monotheism, why the Christian God? Had God decided not to create anything he would still be love and this is shown perfectly in his eternal nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Do you think Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Calvanists, and Baptists all worship the same god and share the same core beliefs about that god?[/quote]
Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons have fundamentally different view of God’s nature than the other three, so no.[/quote]

So who is right, and how do you know? Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as convinced as you are that god has revealed himself to them. [/quote]
When you have monotheism and God having all perfections that are essential to his nature such as love and the Logos which the word logic comes from it follows that the Mormon and Jehovah’s Witnesses view of God is fundamentally wrong.[/quote]

It follows according to whom? Where is the objective proof, rather than the subjective claim that your interpretation is the right one?[/quote]
Transcendental, Ontological, Moral, Cosmological, Teleological arguments are sufficient to show all other conception of god(s) are wrong.[/quote]

Mormons argue the same thing. People in this very thread say you’re wrong about Mormons worshiping a different god. Who is right?

47

Man,
Most religions worship their “different GOD”.
What is different between them is the thing their religious leaders add.
For example the catholic bible was made in the Concile of Nicea. There they picked the books of
the bible that served their purposes, and discarted the ones that dont.

And many religions have different laws that were created acording to their time.
Some have very strick laws or belives.

About the mormon question.
What the hell does it matter if god appeared before Joseph Smith.
What the hell does it matter if jesus existed.
DOes is matter if the Virgin was in fact a virgin.
Does it matter if Jesus marries Mary Magdalene.

People divert from the true escense focusing and this facts.
They miss it.
And thats the point.
You get distracted and you have a hard time findind it.
So you can think for yourself.

You miss the Fact that god is one.
We are part of it. Thats why we are its “sons”
But we really are god its self, manifested as ourselves.

Its like when you, inside your imagination, imagine a story with characters.
They are inside your head, and by being there they are YOU.

48

Religions are different for varios reasons.

Different religions satisfy diferent peoples “needs”
They are diferent because the needs are different.

Once you realize it doesnt matter what they believe.
Once you realize what matters is if that makes that person feel well and do the right things.

You will realize that asking questions like that are non sense, and will bring nothing “positive”

It interesting thou to question and see why they belive that, or do certain things.
But always keep in mind the true escence.

49

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
This is a question to all Christians out there (but Muslims or Jewish people are free to respond as well):

How do you know the God you support (the God from the Bible) is this good guy and not the evil guy? See, there is a fundamental issue here: the only source that supports claims that your God is the good one is the Bible. The Bible was written centuries ago by relatively unknown sources.

So how do you know you’re not being duped? What if the devil is actually the good one?

How does one resolve this issue?[/quote]
Ill answer your question philosophically, God being the greatest being conceivable will have the property of being necessary, non-contingent and his nature being the epitome of moral perfection and goodness. Contingent beings like satan do not have God’s nature of moral perfection and goodness so the only good guy is God.[/quote]

I’ve asked the same question, and am not sure your post addresses it.

Millions of people have faith in religions that logically cannot all be correct. They worship different gods, yet are utterly convinced their god has told them they are correct.

This proves people have the capacity to devoutly believe in false gods.

So how do you know your particular god is the real one?[/quote]
My post does address it in some way that it eliminates everything but monotheism, why the Christian God? Had God decided not to create anything he would still be love and this is shown perfectly in his eternal nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Do you think Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Calvanists, and Baptists all worship the same god and share the same core beliefs about that god?[/quote]
Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons have fundamentally different view of God’s nature than the other three, so no.[/quote]

So who is right, and how do you know? Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as convinced as you are that god has revealed himself to them. [/quote]
When you have monotheism and God having all perfections that are essential to his nature such as love and the Logos which the word logic comes from it follows that the Mormon and Jehovah’s Witnesses view of God is fundamentally wrong.[/quote]

It follows according to whom? Where is the objective proof, rather than the subjective claim that your interpretation is the right one?[/quote]
Transcendental, Ontological, Moral, Cosmological, Teleological arguments are sufficient to show all other conception of god(s) are wrong.[/quote]

Mormons argue the same thing. People in this very thread say you’re wrong about Mormons worshiping a different god. Who is right?[/quote]
From the arguments follow monotheism and God as a being who has all perfections. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons believe in a plurality of gods and are both henothiest. The Mormon conception of god(or should I say “elohim”) was that he was once not god thus a contingent being which is not a perfection in addition to the problem of an infinite regress of gods Mormonisms claims.

Jehovah’s witnesses run into the problem of the Logos not being a part of God’s nature and love had he decided not to create anything.

50

[quote]JESGPY wrote:
Man,
Most religions worship their “different GOD”.
What is different between them is the thing their religious leaders add.
For example the catholic bible was made in the Concile of Nicea. There they picked the books of
the bible that served their purposes, and discarted the ones that dont.

And many religions have different laws that were created acording to their time.
Some have very strick laws or belives.

About the mormon question.
What the hell does it matter if god appeared before Joseph Smith.
What the hell does it matter if jesus existed.
DOes is matter if the Virgin was in fact a virgin.
Does it matter if Jesus marries Mary Magdalene.

People divert from the true escense focusing and this facts.
They miss it.
And thats the point.
You get distracted and you have a hard time findind it.
So you can think for yourself.

You miss the Fact that god is one.
We are part of it. Thats why we are its “sons”
But we really are god its self, manifested as ourselves.

Its like when you, inside your imagination, imagine a story with characters.
They are inside your head, and by being there they are YOU.

[/quote]

It matters, because it proves that men have the capacity to sincerely believe things which are patently false.

And THAT matters, because it proves that your own claims may similarly be patently false.

You don’t know that there is a god any more than Mormons know that god appeared to Joseph Smith.

51

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
This is a question to all Christians out there (but Muslims or Jewish people are free to respond as well):

How do you know the God you support (the God from the Bible) is this good guy and not the evil guy? See, there is a fundamental issue here: the only source that supports claims that your God is the good one is the Bible. The Bible was written centuries ago by relatively unknown sources.

So how do you know you’re not being duped? What if the devil is actually the good one?

How does one resolve this issue?[/quote]
Ill answer your question philosophically, God being the greatest being conceivable will have the property of being necessary, non-contingent and his nature being the epitome of moral perfection and goodness. Contingent beings like satan do not have God’s nature of moral perfection and goodness so the only good guy is God.[/quote]

I’ve asked the same question, and am not sure your post addresses it.

Millions of people have faith in religions that logically cannot all be correct. They worship different gods, yet are utterly convinced their god has told them they are correct.

This proves people have the capacity to devoutly believe in false gods.

So how do you know your particular god is the real one?[/quote]
My post does address it in some way that it eliminates everything but monotheism, why the Christian God? Had God decided not to create anything he would still be love and this is shown perfectly in his eternal nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Do you think Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Calvanists, and Baptists all worship the same god and share the same core beliefs about that god?[/quote]
Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons have fundamentally different view of God’s nature than the other three, so no.[/quote]

So who is right, and how do you know? Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as convinced as you are that god has revealed himself to them. [/quote]
When you have monotheism and God having all perfections that are essential to his nature such as love and the Logos which the word logic comes from it follows that the Mormon and Jehovah’s Witnesses view of God is fundamentally wrong.[/quote]

It follows according to whom? Where is the objective proof, rather than the subjective claim that your interpretation is the right one?[/quote]
Transcendental, Ontological, Moral, Cosmological, Teleological arguments are sufficient to show all other conception of god(s) are wrong.[/quote]

Mormons argue the same thing. People in this very thread say you’re wrong about Mormons worshiping a different god. Who is right?[/quote]
From the arguments follow monotheism and God as a being who has all perfections. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons believe in a plurality of gods and are both henothiest. The Mormon conception of god(or should I say “elohim”) was that he was once not god thus a contingent being which is not a perfection in addition to the problem of an infinite regress of gods Mormonisms claims.

Jehovah’s witnesses run into the problem of the Logos not being a part of God’s nature and love had he decided not to create anything.[/quote]

Your claim a monotheistic, perfect god must exist is no more true than the Mormon claim that Joseph Smith saw god in 1820. You may devoutly believe your claim, but so do they. You may insist it must be true, but so do they.

Neither of you can offer conclusive proof of your claims. Being 100% sincere and 100% convinced that you’re right doesn’t make it so.

52

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
This is a question to all Christians out there (but Muslims or Jewish people are free to respond as well):

How do you know the God you support (the God from the Bible) is this good guy and not the evil guy? See, there is a fundamental issue here: the only source that supports claims that your God is the good one is the Bible. The Bible was written centuries ago by relatively unknown sources.

So how do you know you’re not being duped? What if the devil is actually the good one?

How does one resolve this issue?[/quote]
Ill answer your question philosophically, God being the greatest being conceivable will have the property of being necessary, non-contingent and his nature being the epitome of moral perfection and goodness. Contingent beings like satan do not have God’s nature of moral perfection and goodness so the only good guy is God.[/quote]

I’ve asked the same question, and am not sure your post addresses it.

Millions of people have faith in religions that logically cannot all be correct. They worship different gods, yet are utterly convinced their god has told them they are correct.

This proves people have the capacity to devoutly believe in false gods.

So how do you know your particular god is the real one?[/quote]
My post does address it in some way that it eliminates everything but monotheism, why the Christian God? Had God decided not to create anything he would still be love and this is shown perfectly in his eternal nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Do you think Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Calvanists, and Baptists all worship the same god and share the same core beliefs about that god?[/quote]
Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons have fundamentally different view of God’s nature than the other three, so no.[/quote]

So who is right, and how do you know? Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as convinced as you are that god has revealed himself to them. [/quote]
Mormon’s maybe, JW’s claim no divine inspiration, just biblical interpretation. That being said anybody who claims they interact with the creator of existence are interacting with God, how they interact maybe different, and it may be right or wrong, but the God is the creator and the creator is God. The only one’s who don’t do this to my knowledge are buhddists who can’t be bothered to answer the significant questions. They, weirdly, have no interest, therefore interact with the metaphysical at a lower level.[/quote]

So people can get answers from god that really aren’t from god? If Mormons believe god has told them Joseph Smith saw god in 1820, are they right or wrong?[/quote]

No. They do not get answers from things that do not exist, and that’s not what I said, I think. I said that Mormons make a claim to divine inspiration, not a different ‘God’. Whether it’s true or not I don’t know and I won’t put much investigation into the matter because I don’t care. Live and let live.

53

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
This is a question to all Christians out there (but Muslims or Jewish people are free to respond as well):

How do you know the God you support (the God from the Bible) is this good guy and not the evil guy? See, there is a fundamental issue here: the only source that supports claims that your God is the good one is the Bible. The Bible was written centuries ago by relatively unknown sources.

So how do you know you’re not being duped? What if the devil is actually the good one?

How does one resolve this issue?[/quote]
Ill answer your question philosophically, God being the greatest being conceivable will have the property of being necessary, non-contingent and his nature being the epitome of moral perfection and goodness. Contingent beings like satan do not have God’s nature of moral perfection and goodness so the only good guy is God.[/quote]

I’ve asked the same question, and am not sure your post addresses it.

Millions of people have faith in religions that logically cannot all be correct. They worship different gods, yet are utterly convinced their god has told them they are correct.

This proves people have the capacity to devoutly believe in false gods.

So how do you know your particular god is the real one?[/quote]
My post does address it in some way that it eliminates everything but monotheism, why the Christian God? Had God decided not to create anything he would still be love and this is shown perfectly in his eternal nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Do you think Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Calvanists, and Baptists all worship the same god and share the same core beliefs about that god?[/quote]
Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons have fundamentally different view of God’s nature than the other three, so no.[/quote]

So who is right, and how do you know? Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as convinced as you are that god has revealed himself to them. [/quote]
When you have monotheism and God having all perfections that are essential to his nature such as love and the Logos which the word logic comes from it follows that the Mormon and Jehovah’s Witnesses view of God is fundamentally wrong.[/quote]

It follows according to whom? Where is the objective proof, rather than the subjective claim that your interpretation is the right one?[/quote]
Transcendental, Ontological, Moral, Cosmological, Teleological arguments are sufficient to show all other conception of god(s) are wrong.[/quote]

Mormons argue the same thing. People in this very thread say you’re wrong about Mormons worshiping a different god. Who is right?[/quote]
From the arguments follow monotheism and God as a being who has all perfections. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons believe in a plurality of gods and are both henothiest. The Mormon conception of god(or should I say “elohim”) was that he was once not god thus a contingent being which is not a perfection in addition to the problem of an infinite regress of gods Mormonisms claims.

Jehovah’s witnesses run into the problem of the Logos not being a part of God’s nature and love had he decided not to create anything.[/quote]

Your claim a monotheistic, perfect god must exist is no more true than the Mormon claim that Joseph Smith saw god in 1820. You may devoutly believe your claim, but so do they. You may insist it must be true, but so do they.

Neither of you can offer conclusive proof of your claims. Being 100% sincere and 100% convinced that you’re right doesn’t make it so.[/quote]
Humm it seems like my edit didn’t go through right before I left for work oh well(it was about crafting a response to your “Believers: What Would You Do?” thread.

I don’t think you considered my points before you typed out this reply. Yes there is a difference in belief, knowledge and warrant or warrant for a belief. I showed that all other belief systems(including naturalism somewhere on this board) other than the Christian view are incoherent with either how a person lives their lives according to what they claim to be true or is logically incoherent in and of itself.

Whats funny about agnosticism is that it can be shown deductively that as long as one maintains the premise that God(perfect being) is possible it follows that He actually Is.

54

I don’t understand the “Live and let Live” comment regarding mainstream Christianity vs the Mormons. The Bible very clearly says you have to kill them…or do you just choose to ignore that section, like the sections about slavery being proper and selling rape victims to their rapists?

Ecumenicalism is not a Christian virtue…

55

[quote]TheTick42 wrote:
I don’t understand the “Live and let Live” comment regarding mainstream Christianity vs the Mormons. The Bible very clearly says you have to kill them…or do you just choose to ignore that section, like the sections about slavery being proper and selling rape victims to their rapists?

Ecumenicalism is not a Christian virtue…[/quote]

Idiot.

56

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
This is a question to all Christians out there (but Muslims or Jewish people are free to respond as well):

How do you know the God you support (the God from the Bible) is this good guy and not the evil guy? See, there is a fundamental issue here: the only source that supports claims that your God is the good one is the Bible. The Bible was written centuries ago by relatively unknown sources.

So how do you know you’re not being duped? What if the devil is actually the good one?

How does one resolve this issue?[/quote]
Ill answer your question philosophically, God being the greatest being conceivable will have the property of being necessary, non-contingent and his nature being the epitome of moral perfection and goodness. Contingent beings like satan do not have God’s nature of moral perfection and goodness so the only good guy is God.[/quote]

I’ve asked the same question, and am not sure your post addresses it.

Millions of people have faith in religions that logically cannot all be correct. They worship different gods, yet are utterly convinced their god has told them they are correct.

This proves people have the capacity to devoutly believe in false gods.

So how do you know your particular god is the real one?[/quote]
My post does address it in some way that it eliminates everything but monotheism, why the Christian God? Had God decided not to create anything he would still be love and this is shown perfectly in his eternal nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Do you think Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Calvanists, and Baptists all worship the same god and share the same core beliefs about that god?[/quote]
Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons have fundamentally different view of God’s nature than the other three, so no.[/quote]

So who is right, and how do you know? Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as convinced as you are that god has revealed himself to them. [/quote]
Mormon’s maybe, JW’s claim no divine inspiration, just biblical interpretation. That being said anybody who claims they interact with the creator of existence are interacting with God, how they interact maybe different, and it may be right or wrong, but the God is the creator and the creator is God. The only one’s who don’t do this to my knowledge are buhddists who can’t be bothered to answer the significant questions. They, weirdly, have no interest, therefore interact with the metaphysical at a lower level.[/quote]

So people can get answers from god that really aren’t from god? If Mormons believe god has told them Joseph Smith saw god in 1820, are they right or wrong?[/quote]

No. They do not get answers from things that do not exist, and that’s not what I said, I think. I said that Mormons make a claim to divine inspiration, not a different ‘God’. Whether it’s true or not I don’t know and I won’t put much investigation into the matter because I don’t care. Live and let live.[/quote]

Why wouldn’t you care if it’s divine inspiration or not? If Joseph Smith really did see god, and the LDS church was Christ’s restored church, wouldn’t it be important to know that?

Either their conviction is based on divine inspiration, or they are mistaken/misled, no matter how deeply they believe god has spoken to them.

And if they can be mistaken/misled despite being 100% sincere, so can you and so can anyone else.

Divine inspiration, and even logic, reason, and common sense, can be fickle proofs of the truth. It’s too easy for humans to cognitively, emotionally, and spiritually rationalize their beliefs, without even being aware they are doing so.

And if you really consider yourself educated, you know that and are wary of the same biases in yourself.

57

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
This is a question to all Christians out there (but Muslims or Jewish people are free to respond as well):

How do you know the God you support (the God from the Bible) is this good guy and not the evil guy? See, there is a fundamental issue here: the only source that supports claims that your God is the good one is the Bible. The Bible was written centuries ago by relatively unknown sources.

So how do you know you’re not being duped? What if the devil is actually the good one?

How does one resolve this issue?[/quote]
Ill answer your question philosophically, God being the greatest being conceivable will have the property of being necessary, non-contingent and his nature being the epitome of moral perfection and goodness. Contingent beings like satan do not have God’s nature of moral perfection and goodness so the only good guy is God.[/quote]

I’ve asked the same question, and am not sure your post addresses it.

Millions of people have faith in religions that logically cannot all be correct. They worship different gods, yet are utterly convinced their god has told them they are correct.

This proves people have the capacity to devoutly believe in false gods.

So how do you know your particular god is the real one?[/quote]
My post does address it in some way that it eliminates everything but monotheism, why the Christian God? Had God decided not to create anything he would still be love and this is shown perfectly in his eternal nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Do you think Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Calvanists, and Baptists all worship the same god and share the same core beliefs about that god?[/quote]
Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons have fundamentally different view of God’s nature than the other three, so no.[/quote]

So who is right, and how do you know? Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as convinced as you are that god has revealed himself to them. [/quote]
When you have monotheism and God having all perfections that are essential to his nature such as love and the Logos which the word logic comes from it follows that the Mormon and Jehovah’s Witnesses view of God is fundamentally wrong.[/quote]

It follows according to whom? Where is the objective proof, rather than the subjective claim that your interpretation is the right one?[/quote]
Transcendental, Ontological, Moral, Cosmological, Teleological arguments are sufficient to show all other conception of god(s) are wrong.[/quote]

Mormons argue the same thing. People in this very thread say you’re wrong about Mormons worshiping a different god. Who is right?[/quote]
From the arguments follow monotheism and God as a being who has all perfections. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons believe in a plurality of gods and are both henothiest. The Mormon conception of god(or should I say “elohim”) was that he was once not god thus a contingent being which is not a perfection in addition to the problem of an infinite regress of gods Mormonisms claims.

Jehovah’s witnesses run into the problem of the Logos not being a part of God’s nature and love had he decided not to create anything.[/quote]

Your claim a monotheistic, perfect god must exist is no more true than the Mormon claim that Joseph Smith saw god in 1820. You may devoutly believe your claim, but so do they. You may insist it must be true, but so do they.

Neither of you can offer conclusive proof of your claims. Being 100% sincere and 100% convinced that you’re right doesn’t make it so.[/quote]
Humm it seems like my edit didn’t go through right before I left for work oh well(it was about crafting a response to your “Believers: What Would You Do?” thread.

I don’t think you considered my points before you typed out this reply. Yes there is a difference in belief, knowledge and warrant or warrant for a belief. I showed that all other belief systems(including naturalism somewhere on this board) other than the Christian view are incoherent with either how a person lives their lives according to what they claim to be true or is logically incoherent in and of itself.

Whats funny about agnosticism is that it can be shown deductively that as long as one maintains the premise that God(perfect being) is possible it follows that He actually Is.[/quote]

Come on, dude. Making sweeping statements like in your second paragraph, where you claim to have “proven” that all belief systems other than Christianity are incoherent or illogical, is not going to get you anywhere, and only makes you appear ignorant.

I’ll set that aside for now though, because I’ve never heard anyone assert what you just did in your third paragraph. Why do you think admitting the theoretical possibility of something perfect proves that theoretical something is actually real? What if I admit the theoretical possibility of 14 perfect Flying Spaghetti Monsters? Are they now real?

58

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
This is a question to all Christians out there (but Muslims or Jewish people are free to respond as well):

How do you know the God you support (the God from the Bible) is this good guy and not the evil guy? See, there is a fundamental issue here: the only source that supports claims that your God is the good one is the Bible. The Bible was written centuries ago by relatively unknown sources.

So how do you know you’re not being duped? What if the devil is actually the good one?

How does one resolve this issue?[/quote]
Ill answer your question philosophically, God being the greatest being conceivable will have the property of being necessary, non-contingent and his nature being the epitome of moral perfection and goodness. Contingent beings like satan do not have God’s nature of moral perfection and goodness so the only good guy is God.[/quote]

I’ve asked the same question, and am not sure your post addresses it.

Millions of people have faith in religions that logically cannot all be correct. They worship different gods, yet are utterly convinced their god has told them they are correct.

This proves people have the capacity to devoutly believe in false gods.

So how do you know your particular god is the real one?[/quote]
My post does address it in some way that it eliminates everything but monotheism, why the Christian God? Had God decided not to create anything he would still be love and this is shown perfectly in his eternal nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Do you think Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Calvanists, and Baptists all worship the same god and share the same core beliefs about that god?[/quote]
Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons have fundamentally different view of God’s nature than the other three, so no.[/quote]

So who is right, and how do you know? Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as convinced as you are that god has revealed himself to them. [/quote]
Mormon’s maybe, JW’s claim no divine inspiration, just biblical interpretation. That being said anybody who claims they interact with the creator of existence are interacting with God, how they interact maybe different, and it may be right or wrong, but the God is the creator and the creator is God. The only one’s who don’t do this to my knowledge are buhddists who can’t be bothered to answer the significant questions. They, weirdly, have no interest, therefore interact with the metaphysical at a lower level.[/quote]

So people can get answers from god that really aren’t from god? If Mormons believe god has told them Joseph Smith saw god in 1820, are they right or wrong?[/quote]

No. They do not get answers from things that do not exist, and that’s not what I said, I think. I said that Mormons make a claim to divine inspiration, not a different ‘God’. Whether it’s true or not I don’t know and I won’t put much investigation into the matter because I don’t care. Live and let live.[/quote]

Why wouldn’t you care if it’s divine inspiration or not? If Joseph Smith really did see god, and the LDS church was Christ’s restored church, wouldn’t it be important to know that?

Either their conviction is based on divine inspiration, or they are mistaken/misled, no matter how deeply they believe god has spoken to them.

And if they can be mistaken/misled despite being 100% sincere, so can you and so can anyone else.

Divine inspiration, and even logic, reason, and common sense, can be fickle proofs of the truth. It’s too easy for humans to cognitively, emotionally, and spiritually rationalize their beliefs, without even being aware they are doing so.

And if you really consider yourself educated, you know that and are wary of the same biases in yourself.[/quote]

I certainly hope for the sake of the practitioners of LDS that Joseph Smith was divinely inspired. It’s small issue to me, I participate in the church that Jesus himself started…Really, that’s good enough for me.

59

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
This is a question to all Christians out there (but Muslims or Jewish people are free to respond as well):

How do you know the God you support (the God from the Bible) is this good guy and not the evil guy? See, there is a fundamental issue here: the only source that supports claims that your God is the good one is the Bible. The Bible was written centuries ago by relatively unknown sources.

So how do you know you’re not being duped? What if the devil is actually the good one?

How does one resolve this issue?[/quote]
Ill answer your question philosophically, God being the greatest being conceivable will have the property of being necessary, non-contingent and his nature being the epitome of moral perfection and goodness. Contingent beings like satan do not have God’s nature of moral perfection and goodness so the only good guy is God.[/quote]

I’ve asked the same question, and am not sure your post addresses it.

Millions of people have faith in religions that logically cannot all be correct. They worship different gods, yet are utterly convinced their god has told them they are correct.

This proves people have the capacity to devoutly believe in false gods.

So how do you know your particular god is the real one?[/quote]
My post does address it in some way that it eliminates everything but monotheism, why the Christian God? Had God decided not to create anything he would still be love and this is shown perfectly in his eternal nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Do you think Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Calvanists, and Baptists all worship the same god and share the same core beliefs about that god?[/quote]
Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons have fundamentally different view of God’s nature than the other three, so no.[/quote]

So who is right, and how do you know? Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as convinced as you are that god has revealed himself to them. [/quote]
When you have monotheism and God having all perfections that are essential to his nature such as love and the Logos which the word logic comes from it follows that the Mormon and Jehovah’s Witnesses view of God is fundamentally wrong.[/quote]

It follows according to whom? Where is the objective proof, rather than the subjective claim that your interpretation is the right one?[/quote]
Transcendental, Ontological, Moral, Cosmological, Teleological arguments are sufficient to show all other conception of god(s) are wrong.[/quote]

Mormons argue the same thing. People in this very thread say you’re wrong about Mormons worshiping a different god. Who is right?[/quote]
From the arguments follow monotheism and God as a being who has all perfections. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons believe in a plurality of gods and are both henothiest. The Mormon conception of god(or should I say “elohim”) was that he was once not god thus a contingent being which is not a perfection in addition to the problem of an infinite regress of gods Mormonisms claims.

Jehovah’s witnesses run into the problem of the Logos not being a part of God’s nature and love had he decided not to create anything.[/quote]

Your claim a monotheistic, perfect god must exist is no more true than the Mormon claim that Joseph Smith saw god in 1820. You may devoutly believe your claim, but so do they. You may insist it must be true, but so do they.

Neither of you can offer conclusive proof of your claims. Being 100% sincere and 100% convinced that you’re right doesn’t make it so.[/quote]
Humm it seems like my edit didn’t go through right before I left for work oh well(it was about crafting a response to your “Believers: What Would You Do?” thread.

I don’t think you considered my points before you typed out this reply. Yes there is a difference in belief, knowledge and warrant or warrant for a belief. I showed that all other belief systems(including naturalism somewhere on this board) other than the Christian view are incoherent with either how a person lives their lives according to what they claim to be true or is logically incoherent in and of itself.

Whats funny about agnosticism is that it can be shown deductively that as long as one maintains the premise that God(perfect being) is possible it follows that He actually Is.[/quote]

Come on, dude. Making sweeping statements like in your second paragraph, where you claim to have “proven” that all belief systems other than Christianity are incoherent or illogical, is not going to get you anywhere, and only makes you appear ignorant.

I’ll set that aside for now though, because I’ve never heard anyone assert what you just did in your third paragraph. Why do you think admitting the theoretical possibility of something perfect proves that theoretical something is actually real? What if I admit the theoretical possibility of 14 perfect Flying Spaghetti Monsters? Are they now real?[/quote]
You claimed that the Mormon belief in an infinite regress of gods has the same warrant that belief in the Christian God which the arguments I have listed eliminate all other gods and support the Christian one. In naturalism one has no warrant for trusting their sense perception or the reliability of their mental faculties.

The argument only works for 1 perfect(greatest conceivable being or a being of which no greater could be conceived)being irrespective of what you call him if one holds He’s possible, He Is. Why it doesn’t work for more than one is simple, since the 14 FSM’s are equal lets say FSM A wanted to actualize a state of affairs x and FSM B wanted to actualize a state of affairs not x. Whatever happens the FSMs are not perfect since one of them didn’t achieve their state of affairs and all the FSMs are equal right?

60

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
This is a question to all Christians out there (but Muslims or Jewish people are free to respond as well):

How do you know the God you support (the God from the Bible) is this good guy and not the evil guy? See, there is a fundamental issue here: the only source that supports claims that your God is the good one is the Bible. The Bible was written centuries ago by relatively unknown sources.

So how do you know you’re not being duped? What if the devil is actually the good one?

How does one resolve this issue?[/quote]
Ill answer your question philosophically, God being the greatest being conceivable will have the property of being necessary, non-contingent and his nature being the epitome of moral perfection and goodness. Contingent beings like satan do not have God’s nature of moral perfection and goodness so the only good guy is God.[/quote]

I’ve asked the same question, and am not sure your post addresses it.

Millions of people have faith in religions that logically cannot all be correct. They worship different gods, yet are utterly convinced their god has told them they are correct.

This proves people have the capacity to devoutly believe in false gods.

So how do you know your particular god is the real one?[/quote]
My post does address it in some way that it eliminates everything but monotheism, why the Christian God? Had God decided not to create anything he would still be love and this is shown perfectly in his eternal nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Do you think Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Calvanists, and Baptists all worship the same god and share the same core beliefs about that god?[/quote]
Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons have fundamentally different view of God’s nature than the other three, so no.[/quote]

So who is right, and how do you know? Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as convinced as you are that god has revealed himself to them. [/quote]
Mormon’s maybe, JW’s claim no divine inspiration, just biblical interpretation. That being said anybody who claims they interact with the creator of existence are interacting with God, how they interact maybe different, and it may be right or wrong, but the God is the creator and the creator is God. The only one’s who don’t do this to my knowledge are buhddists who can’t be bothered to answer the significant questions. They, weirdly, have no interest, therefore interact with the metaphysical at a lower level.[/quote]

So people can get answers from god that really aren’t from god? If Mormons believe god has told them Joseph Smith saw god in 1820, are they right or wrong?[/quote]

No. They do not get answers from things that do not exist, and that’s not what I said, I think. I said that Mormons make a claim to divine inspiration, not a different ‘God’. Whether it’s true or not I don’t know and I won’t put much investigation into the matter because I don’t care. Live and let live.[/quote]

Why wouldn’t you care if it’s divine inspiration or not? If Joseph Smith really did see god, and the LDS church was Christ’s restored church, wouldn’t it be important to know that?

Either their conviction is based on divine inspiration, or they are mistaken/misled, no matter how deeply they believe god has spoken to them.

And if they can be mistaken/misled despite being 100% sincere, so can you and so can anyone else.

Divine inspiration, and even logic, reason, and common sense, can be fickle proofs of the truth. It’s too easy for humans to cognitively, emotionally, and spiritually rationalize their beliefs, without even being aware they are doing so.

And if you really consider yourself educated, you know that and are wary of the same biases in yourself.[/quote]

I certainly hope for the sake of the practitioners of LDS that Joseph Smith was divinely inspired. It’s small issue to me, I participate in the church that Jesus himself started…Really, that’s good enough for me.[/quote]

If Joseph Smith was divinely inspired, the pope is a fraud and the LDS church, not the Catholic church, is Christ’s church.

Given that, don’t you think it’s important to know whether or not Joseph Smith was divinely inspired?