I believe it can be of great value for Christians to understand what is said about end-times and Christ’s Second Coming in the bible. You are right in saying we should not allow end-times beliefs to make us lethargic or complacent (Paul warns us several times about being idle). However, I believe understanding these prophecies has the potential of igniting our passion and triggering us to move with a greater urgency to do our part in towards the fulfilment of the great commission.
You are also correct about us not knowing the time of the end (“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” - Mt 24:36). At the same time however, the disciples started this conversation by asking Jesus “. . . what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Mt 24:3) and were not rebuked. Rather Jesus went on to describe the ‘climate’ or ‘world scene’ that would indicate the coming of the end of the age. This indicates that while we won’t know the exact timing of the end of this age, we may be able to tell when it is close at hand.
I think what I enjoyed about the LaHaye book was how it showed a view of all the end-time prophecy together in context - with the supporting scripture quoted. It really helped me see how end-times is not just about the book of Revelation, but how it is one common thread throughout both the NT (gospels, epistles & Revelation) and the OT (Daniel, Joel, etc.).
However, no matter what our beliefs are about end-times, you hit the nail on the head when you said, “just be ready NOW”. A greater truth can’t be said on the subject.
Peace,
Denis <><
Yes, Mr. Tolerant, the post was directed to “any other believers.” But isn’t that preaching to the choir? “Hey everyone who believes anyway…I found another reason to believe…hooray for us!!!” I agree with Huck, who gives a shit? If you believe anyway, then why do you need another reason. Hence the post should be directed towards non-believers if it were to stimulate any sort of interesting debate. So I ask again, “Who gives a shit?”
Actually, I wouldn’t consider myself as having attacked him; therefore I don’t see the need for you to ‘defend’ him. Second of all, do you really believe your post? What is wrong with suggesting a book to other christians? Why the odd response you’re having? I take it you believe in Weight training, and the positive effects it can have on the body? Would it freak you out if someone suggested a weight training book? After all, it would be preaching to the choir, right? No, you probably wouldn’t freak out, because the book (if you haven’t already read it) may contain some things you had never thought of. And again, if you don’t give a shit, why the response? Hooker, we both know you would have screamed “oppression” had he declared “All non-believers should read this book and be convinced.” Yet, you seem to argue that’s what he should have done? Reread your post. Very confusing.
Ok, I figured I must have read your post wrong. Hey, it can happen. Right? So I read it again and…Well, you do seem to give a shit. Alot, in fact. You obviously read the post and at least my reply. You replied. You made sure to state that you don’t give a shit twice; oddly enough, after coming off as sounding bothered. I still don’t understand the “preaching to the choir bit.” Don’t people with the same beliefs ever compare notes and talk amongst themselves? As far as you wanting him to address the general forum…have you been here long? There is no religious debate here. In fact, It seems most would rather that such things not be addressed to the entire forum. It all turns into generalizations, insults, etc. Did you see the post where someone asked what the religous makeup was of the forum? A guy asks a valid sociological question and things get heated. Yes, I was involved in that. Besides, we both know noone will change their religious (or lack of) beliefs, due to a debate in a forum room. Never seen it happen. Ever. Which is why you will never see me try to ‘convert’ or try to explain why everyone should believe the way I do. However, I will respond if I think cheap shots or stereotypes are being thrown in. Even then, I try to attack statements and not the person. Though I’m sure I’ve broken that rule once or twice. By the way, do you ever read research on hypertrophy and the causes of? Naw, that would be preaching to the choir. Now go to church or go to hell! 
Ok, I just wanted to play the role of fanatic for one sec. Got to live up to expectations! And if you take that seriously and flame me, you’ll just look silly. Be safe, Buckle up, and all that stuff.
JK is correct. No one can know what the bible means unless the Spirit of God shows him what it means. Without the Spirit a person can know what it says, but not what it means. “Who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given us by God…not taught by human wisdom, but taught by the Spirit…” And again… “a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, it is foolishness to him, and he can not understand them.”
Convincing a person that certain historical facts are true doesn’t accomplish anything. I also once believed all the historical facts, but was completely lost and did not understand that I was dead (spiritually) and in need of life, which is only found in Jesus. I sang the songs, learned the stories, quoted scripture—-knew all about what it said; not a clue what it meant. I knew the book, but not the author. God knows if a person truly wants to know Him, and to that person God will reveal Himself. “…he who comes to Him must (1) believe that He exists, and (2) that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.” “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble”. If God can not convince the person, we sure can not.
Thanks, hooker, but really, I should have passed this thread up. I just can’t resist a little tweak. Anyone who has been on this forum for the last 6 mos or so knows my feelings re: organized superstition, oops, I mean religion. To each his own. And oh, yeah, who gives a shit, really?
Here is a thought. Matthew 24:36 was quoted. In the original greek that was used at the time Matthew was written(if I remember correctly Matthew wrote his gospel in Greek first, then Hebrew), the Greek word parousia that many bibles translate “coming” actually means “presence”. Check any dictionary of the N.T. as well as different works by scholars. Here is where it gets interesting. When you read that verse using the word presence instead of coming, and then you consider the context of the that chapter in Matthew, then you read the other prophecies regarding the last days (ie 2 Timothy 3), you can make a very strong case that we are living in the last days. Further, no one has noticed, because we are eating and drinking, that Christ is already reigning as King of the Kingdom. There will be no visible “coming” as is taught by many churches. His “coming” would be invisible.
MBH, right on! I have to agree wholeheartedly with everything you said, except I think the Jesus part might be optional. I don’t really get into worshipping holy people that have walked the earth. Look at the Catholics and their patron saints, the mother Mary, the Pope, etc. It reminds me of the mythological pantheon or something. Or Buddha, and the Dahlia Lama. I know I am blasphemous, sorry if I have offended anyone, I am just a free thinker. I believe that spirituality and religion are actually two separate things for most people. I find that religion can end up confusing people about spirituality more than it clarifies. That would also depend on which religion and actual church or minister you attend for your teachings. But truly, if God hasn’t revealed himself to you then you are going to be lost and count yourself one of the walking dead. You won’t find God’s phone number in ancient texts or from praying to a statue, or piece of metal, or whatever your religion uses as a holy symbol. God hid the key to life in the one place he knew man would never look.
Hey, where were you quoting from, just out of curiosity…?
Sorry brothers and sisters, I’ve been away from the forum a little while. There isn’t enough time in the day to address everything that’s been said, so I’ll make a few points and leave it at that. Arguing the historical accuracy of the bible based on archaeological evidence is a waste of time because, let’s face it, none of us are archaeologists with expertise in this area (if anyone is feel free to chime in). So let’s address it from a different perspective. Read the teachings of Christ, and then try to deny that the perfect human being wouldn’t live as he taught. If you can honestly assert that his teachings weren’t the epitomy of kindness, justness, truth, and love, then you have a legitimate reason not to believe in the teachings. If not, then to deny the teachings of Christ would simply be self-denial. I don’t mean to call anybody out or win converts, but this is simply a realization I came to. Next, let’s look at some current evidence of the divinity of Christ.
So what do could possibly give us real-life, current evidence in this matter? How would you like to pick the brain of somebody that has already died, and see what she says? Then read “Embraced by the Light” by Betty Joe Eadie. This woman was proclaimed dead by her doctor for hours, then came back to life. This is the most in-depth Near Death Experience ever recorded. Not the most unimportant finding in her after death experiences was that the “light in the tunnel” that every Near Death Experience relates, is actually the light from Jesus Christ’s spiritual being. What I love about reading NDE’s is that they are all nearly identical! How can you deny that when you die you won’t have the exact same experience?! So let’s say you can’t accept that the teachings of Jesus represent the ideal for living life and that he himself followed these same teachings (thereby proving himself the perfect human being). Let’s also assume that it’s not too much of a stretch for you to deny every claim of every person who has ever died and came back to life. Not to worry, there’s a simple, real-life test you can do for yourself to examine the legitimacy of this whole Christian idea.
Pray. Ask in an earnest, humble, sincere, and devoted manner. What you ask for, you will receive. I’ve had many, many experiences with this. Experiences too clear to deny.
So there’s my case for christ. Ever since I have been saved, my life has changed in countless ways for the better. For me, is the ultimate proof.
“Read the teachings of Christ, and then try to deny that the perfect human being wouldn’t live as he taught.”
Same for Buddha, Mohammed, etc. It’s kind of a prerequisite for founding a religion. ;)
“Next, let's look at some current evidence of the divinity of Christ. So what do could possibly give us real-life, current evidence in this matter?”
I don’t need “real world” evidence to justify my faith. Anyone who does needs to reexamine their beliefs. I define faith as “believing without seeing”.
“What I love about reading NDE's is that they are all nearly identical! How can you deny that when you die you won't have the exact same experience?!”
NDE’s have been sufficiently explained by science. It is NOT a coincidence that they are such a universal and common occurrence, but they are not “proof” of anything divine. Test pilots and astronauts have been having them for decades. When subjected to G forces intense enough to cause loss of consciousness, subjects undergo the exact NDE experience as those who actually did barely escape death. When a "civilian" has this experience through the cultural filter of religion, it becomes a "divine" experience. Still, it’s a nice thought that when we die it’s not such a terrible happening.
“Ever since I have been saved, my life has changed in countless ways for the better. For me, is the ultimate proof.”
Good for you, that’s wonderful. However, I know lots of devout Christians who are just plain miserable; wrapped up in guilt, jealousy, and envy. I’m sure it’s the same for Muslims, Hindus, and Pagans. My point? Organized religion, in any form, is not the salvation of mankind. When we lean on it too hard, we end up with crusades and suicide bombers.
Dan – Quotes in the post above are from the New Testament in this order 1 Corinthians 2:11-14, Hebrews 11:6, and James 4:6.
Forrester - I agree that “religion” is useless (I can’t stand it). And, yes, I am NOT talking about believing about an honorable man named Jesus of Nazareth who lived 2000 years ago, who performed miracles, taught people to love one another, and eventually died on a cross, and we try to imitate. I am talking about trusting in Jesus Christ the Lord God Himself who is alive today and wants to live in you. He is the Jesus who has “reconciled the world to Himself, not counting men’s sins against them” (2 Cor 5:18-19). He said “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more” (Heb 10:17). “He is the One who turns aside God’s wrath, taking away the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:1-2). “He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; He took it away, nailing it to the cross.” (Col 2:13-14). I could go on and on, but the point is that every person’s sins (past, present, future) were placed on Jesus, they were judged, the verdict guilty, the penalty death, Jesus took all the punishment in our place, there is no punishment left for us. No one asked Him. He just did it. But, forgiveness is not salvation. Not everyone is saved, but everyone is already forgiven (but, you’ll hear much from the religious groups about if you don’t stop sinning you’ll go to hell, etc). No one will go to hell for “sins” (the filthy five, the naughty nine were already judged). Only one sin will separate you from God - Jesus said “the world’s sin is unbelief in Me”. Salvation is receiving life. Before Jesus could give us life, He had to take away the cause of death (sin). “We are saved by His life” (Romans 5:10). “I have come that they might have life” (John 10:10). “In Him was life” (John 1:4). “I am the bread of life.” (John 6:48). “I am the way the truth and the life” (John 14:6). “Because I live you also shall live” (John 14:19). “Because of His great love for us, God, rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions” (Eph 2:4-5). “To the saints God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.” (Col 1:25-27). The reason you need life is because “you were dead in your transgressions and sins” (Eph 2:1). “just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.” (Romans 5:12). The gospel is a message of good news of Jesus’ perfect love and acceptance to mankind while we were without hope (not the guilt and condemnation spewed by many religious groups). Sin is no longer an issue. We will only be asked, “what did you do with My Son?” We should not focus on sins and what we are doing, but on the life we have from Jesus and what He does through us, even though while in this body we don’t always act like it. If I use God’s word as the standard, I can’t say the Jesus part is optional. Here is God’s (not mine) message: Jesus said of Himself, “I AM THE way, THE truth and THE life. NO ONE comes to the Father EXCEPT by ME.” Peter said of Jesus, “Nor is there salvation in ANY OTHER, for there is NO OTHER name under heaven given among men, by which we MUST be saved.” John writes “He who believes in the Son [Jesus] has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but God’s wrath (death) remains on him.” Jesus defined eternal life this way: “This is eternal life, that they may know You the ONLY TRUE GOD and JESUS CHRIST Whom You have sent.” John also writes “whoever believes that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him and he in God.” He goes on to say “Whoever believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His SON.” Finally, John testifies “We KNOW that the Son of God has come and has given us an UNDERSTANDING that we may KNOW Him Who is TRUE and are in Him who is TRUE, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is THE TRUE GOD and eternal life.” Time does not permit, nor should it be necessary to write of the testimony of Paul, John the Baptist, the centurion present at the crucifixion, and others.
Mr. Tolerant…The comparison to my “believing” in weight training and someone suggesting a weight training book to me is not analagous to “believing” in mythologh, superstition, the divinity of J. Christ, etc…Weight training isn’t accepted on faith, rather it is on scientific evidence as well as experience. I don’t believe in it in the same way someone believes in their religeon, this is the fallacy of amphibole, and ergo not a valid comparison. Yeah, Christ existed, but read any historically accepted document and it reads pretty much like this: “Jesus of Nazereth…Killed for heresay” nothing is mentioned about miracles or the like in historical documents, rather only in the Bible are they mentioned. Yeah, Christ was probably a swell guy, but he’s dead, so really…Who gives a shit?
Jesus is not God. He is God’s son.
Know what the “I.N.R.I.” scroll at the top of crucifixs’ stands for? “I’m Nailed Right In.”
You two should look into the teachings of Hathor the celestial bovine. Hathor teaches that if you squeeze the teat, milk will come. If you feed the cow, milk will come. If you give birth, milk will come. If you try to convince me that non-believers will burn in hell-fire forever, milk will come. If you try to convince me that Jesus was really possessed of supernatural powers, milk will come. If you assert that a priest has a more direct connection with God than I do, milk will come. If you can’t see the direct link between Greek texts and the Bible, milk will come.
“He who believes in the Son [Jesus] has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but God’s wrath (death) remains on him.”
So, I took that to mean that any non-Christians will all be going to hell since they don’t believe in Jesus. Is that what that passage says to you? Perhaps I misunderstood your point, but I simply do NOT believe that everyone else is damned if they happen to follow another belief system. Why are Christians any better than any other religion?
I’m of the mind that all religion/beliefs were, by and large, created by man to try to explain what he couldn’t: the sun rises, disease takes family members, storms ruin crops, etc. Doesn’t it seem like it would be easier for a human being to make some sort of sense out of inexplicable happenings through a belief in a higher power and purpose, so these terrible things don’t happen for nothing? Modern man doesn’t have that problem (or not nearly as much) because of science. Maybe that’s one reason religion is seeing such a backlash these days. Not trying to argue the existence of Jesus Christ, but I just don’t buy it that we’re right and everyone else is wrong. And for us to think that we actually have a handle on what happens to us after life is ludicrous, especially since we can’t explain 90% of what’s sitting right in front of us.
Hey, all right, another Hathor disciple!
“Hell” in the bible is translated from the Hebrew, Sheol and the Greek, Hades. Both of them mean grave. Never in the bible is there mentioned a literal hell as a place of torment. The parable of Lazarus is just a parable, and don’t point to Revelation as proof. The lake of fire means a death from which there can be no resurrection. God does not punish the wicked. If they remain wicked, they die with no chance or possibility of resurrection.
Yes, that passage says to me that Jesus is the only way. It is not my intent to convince you or anyone to believe that. It’s not my idea anyway. You can read the bible and decide for yourself if it is true or not. Personally, I wouldn’t believe a word of the bible either if I didn’t believe that Jesus was God. If Jesus wasn’t God I couldn’t care less if Jonah was in a whale or he swallowed the whale. But, if Jesus is God and said Jonah was in a whale, then I am forced to believe that. So, I think the first question should be “Is Jesus who He claimed to be?” I have come to know that Jesus is God. Again, if you’re not with that I don’t hold it against you, and do not think I am better than you. I know what God has revealed to me as truth, and I am very thankful for that. I certainly do not deserve what God has done for me—-none of us do. Maybe somehow by God’s grace I was humble enough to hear the truth. The same sun that melts wax hardens clay, just as the same message of God’s grace melts a humble heart and hardens a proud heart. I have an opinion about a lot of things, which don’t matter much. But, when it comes to Jesus, it’s not an opinion to me it’s the truth more real than the physical senses and science. As I said (or rather quoted) in my first post on this thread, there is no way that this will make any sense to you if you do not have God’s Spirit. The only way I know anything is because it was revealed to me by God’s Spirit. God does not send anyone to hell. We are all separated from God (dead) and will remain that way unless we accept God’s offer of life. God is just, and perfect love. We can trust He will save “whosoever will”. Jesus is God’s answer (the only answer) to all that mankind will ever need. He is the only one with eternal life.