Growing them gunz*
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Only $399.99!
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I’m going to jump into the compounds vs. isolation and everyone is doing it wrong (except me, of course) conversation.
I think @T3hPwnisher hit the nail on the head with the failure point: we’re missing the forest for the trees, there.
I’ll take that a step further: this conversation always turns into either/ or. It’s some variation of “you’ll build more mass with a bench press than a flye.” I mean, no kidding, but why can’t you do a flye after your press (or even before)? We aren’t stuck with just one choice.
Training economy doesn’t really answer for it, either, because your couple sets of flyes, where you do get to go to failure, don’t take from your recovery the way your bench sets do.
I’m not saying you need 1000 moves from every angle for everything, but if you’re going to give yourself 9 sets for chest (this is an example), I don’t see why 2-3 of those wouldn’t be smaller movements if your goal is hypertrophy. I can also go a step further to say this actually makes more sense for a beginner - they don’t even know how to hit a muscle yet; why not do a movement that makes it easier to actually flex that specific muscle, increase training volume/ practice, and not significantly increase recovery debt?
I’m not being overly dogmatic, by the way, just taking what appeared to be the empty side of the argument; I’m a born contrarian.
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Understand my position isnt anti isolation. Theres a time and place for targeting lagging muscles that might not be getting stimulating from a specific movement.
I can agree to this line of thought to a point.
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What about compounds AS isolation movements? Ok, not quite that, but something like this:
5 x 5 of overhead presses
5 x 10 of (lighter) overhead dumbbell presses
versus
5 x 5 of overhead presses
5 x 10(ish) of tricep extensions/pushdowns
5 x 10(ish) of front/rear/lateral raises
One of the problems with beginners is that they have decided their weak point(s). In reality their weak point is everything supported by their shoes.
Get some muscle going on your whole body. In a few years your weak points will present themselves in the mirror.
Disclaimer: This only pertains to those beginners who want to get a big impressive physique. If they’re just looking for a pair of “cap pistols,” those little isolation exercises are enjoyable and will suffice.
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So true.
Waaaaaay too much volume
Is it?
If you are training for hypertrophy, I do not think Sheiko is an ideal choice for this goal.
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I’ll frame the question better.
In the context of a strength program, where strength and size are trained concurrently in the same session:
Strength work
Hypertrophy work
You’ll often see a pattern of 4-6 sets of, say, 8-12 reps for the hypertrophy work.
Is it preferable to do that with a compound lift (the same lift, or a close variation) or use isolation lifts?
Barbell Bench, then DB bench
Vs
Barbell Bench, then pec isolations and tricep isolations
Both approaches have been used successfully since basically the beginning of competitive strength lifting, but modern examples show up in Sheiko, 5/3/1, and the Chinese Olympic weightlifting system.
Choosing one or the other seems more a matter of “art”/bro science than actual science.
So which is “better”, and what’s your bro science reasoning for it?
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In my experience and informed opinion… yes
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The bro-science for chest hypertrophy that I grew up in the 1970’s and '80’s was to start with a major compound exercise and then a compound dumbbell at a different angle and followed with a dumbbell fly at a different angle. Example:
- Heavy Barbell Bench Press - 8 rep sets (warmups to get to working sets) ~4 sets
- Moderate Incline Dumbbell Press (trying to feel pec contraction) - 8 rep sets, ~4 sets
- Lying Dumbbell Flies - 10 rep sets, ~4 sets
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This is the intermediate template. The advanced one will destroy you….
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Back to my earlier point, a guy on an average upper/lower split could see this and think he has to do that or a variation of it every Upper day. Really though, splitting that volume up over 2 sessions is enough for 90% of gym goers. Hell, remove the dumbell flies and thats STILL enough for 90% of gym goers.
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In the '70’s and '80’s I didn’t know a single soul that did an upper/lower split. The bro-science of the time was closer to a PPL split. I did my own modification of that. Most everyone was training each body part twice a week.
Absolutely no one that wasn’t powerlifting did a deadlift. Hardly anyone did squats, except the hard core. The typical “lower body” day for all but the hard core was a little leg extensions, leg curls, and calf raises, plus a little ab work.
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When intensity, volume and frequency are not balanced out as a whole. Things go to shit.
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I think it’s interesting that a very similar pattern also shows up as one of the sessions in that same Sheiko template. Heavier bench press, but the same bench → lower-rep db press → higher-rep flies pattern.
The Bench Press weight seems extremely light; almost into a “working rest” for the number of reps for 85% of a 1 rep max. That is a double (2 reps) with a weight that can be done for about 6 or 7 reps. Sure it is heavy weight, but far from anywhere in the high intensity realm. It looks more like a CNS focused workout.
BTW, I know nothing about Sheiko philosophy.
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