In the context of the Arab Spring, what are the prospects for stable liberal democracy taking root in a region that has historically resisted the waves of global democratization following WWI, WWII, in addition to what political scientist Samuel Huntington called the “third wave” of surging democracy during the 1970s and 1980s?
If the Arab Spring is merely a mirage, why is this the case?
If the Arab Spring holds promise for democracy developing in a region so immune to it that it has given rise to a new literature regarding authoritarian persistence, why is this so?
As a side note, American policy has backed the democratic movement called the Arab Spring until the people involved vote for an extremist candidate. At that point then they cry foul and claim democracy will never succeed in the Middle East. These are Muslim countries, would one think they would elect a fundamentalist Christian as their leader?
I do know that in Tunisia, the country whose revolution sparked the whole arab spring movement, the Tunisian government has been stable since. I like to think one of the reasons that country is stable is due to that governments relationship with the WY National Guard.
I attended a talk by General Reiner this spring in which he spoke about our efforts to educate the Tunisian government especially in re the rule of law and the role of the courts. It was quite interesting.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
In the context of the Arab Spring, what are the prospects for stable liberal democracy taking root in a region that has historically resisted the waves of global democratization following WWI, WWII, in addition to what political scientist Samuel Huntington called the “third wave” of surging democracy during the 1970s and 1980s?
If the Arab Spring is merely a mirage, why is this the case?
If the Arab Spring holds promise for democracy developing in a region so immune to it that it has given rise to a new literature regarding authoritarian persistence, why is this so?[/quote]
I think for the first time, we experienced a people and culture that does not hold ‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness’ as self evident. Their values are rooted in something else altogether. An argument can be rightly made that Islam is this root, but I think it’s more than that. There is something regional and cultural that we don’t understand about them as well. We don’t understand people who don’t want freedom.
So we don’t understand why the Arab Spring failed when it had all the watermarks of success.
We don’t understand, in free elections why Palestinians voted for the most violent terrorists around.
We need to understand what makes these people tick and we don’t.
[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
I do know that in Tunisia, the country whose revolution sparked the whole arab spring movement, the Tunisian government has been stable since. I like to think one of the reasons that country is stable is due to that governments relationship with the WY National Guard.
I attended a talk by General Reiner this spring in which he spoke about our efforts to educate the Tunisian government especially in re the rule of law and the role of the courts. It was quite interesting. [/quote]
Yes, it did succeed there and why their and no where else?
We don’t understand, in free elections why Palestinians voted for the most violent terrorists around.
[/quote]
I understand it perfectly. If the people hate Israel, of course they are going to vote for a group who hates Israel.
Like when Rumsfeld said during the Iraq war “No way Iraq will be a theocracy.” Why not? if you give them democracy and they vote for a theocracy, then that’s their choice, it’s what freedom is all about. Just because we in the West do not like the outcome doesn’t make it wrong. If we do not want terrorists and theocracies ruling the Middle East than what the hell are we pushing democracy on them for?
[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
I do know that in Tunisia, the country whose revolution sparked the whole arab spring movement, the Tunisian government has been stable since. I like to think one of the reasons that country is stable is due to that governments relationship with the WY National Guard.
I attended a talk by General Reiner this spring in which he spoke about our efforts to educate the Tunisian government especially in re the rule of law and the role of the courts. It was quite interesting. [/quote]
Yes, it did succeed there and why their and no where else?[/quote]
From what we were told it seems many of the government officials were receptive to learning how to govern democratically. They were genuinely interested and listened to how the government should make and equally enforce the laws that were enacted. General Reiner did not have time to get into the specifics why though. I believe they have gone through great effort to not allow the militant factions gain any power.
We don’t understand, in free elections why Palestinians voted for the most violent terrorists around.
[/quote]
I understand it perfectly. If the people hate Israel, of course they are going to vote for a group who hates Israel.
Like when Rumsfeld said during the Iraq war “No way Iraq will be a theocracy.” Why not? if you give them democracy and they vote for a theocracy, then that’s their choice, it’s what freedom is all about. Just because we in the West do not like the outcome doesn’t make it wrong. If we do not want terrorists and theocracies ruling the Middle East than what the hell are we pushing democracy on them for? [/quote]
Good point. But I don’t understand being so motivated by hate that you would damage yourself to propagate it.
Education is the key here, and it’s sorely lacking in the Middle East. Even more so when you consider that many Middle Eastern women have zero access to it.
At one point, the shoe was on the other foot. This is probably too simplistic of an analogy, but the Middle East used to be the bastion of education, higher learning, technological advancements, etc. Western Europe was the outback shithole filled with violent inbreds and half-retarded religious zealots looking to start some holy wars.
One of the things that really pulled Europe out of its stagnation was exposure to many of the things that Muslims studied everyday in places like the House of Wisdom. The rise of Christianity, and the ensuing power play amongst popes/bishops (prospective or otherwise), effectively stunted intellectual growth in Western Europe for centuries. Many Europeans previously lived in a closed-off world ruled by dogma, violence, and “religious” leaders all too willing to send men off to die in religious wars under the promise of eternal salvation in exchange for death on the battlefield while fighting infidels.
Sound familiar?
Islam is not inherently disposed to the sort of shit we see over in the Middle East no more than Christianity or Judaism is, despite the region’s best attempts to convince us otherwise. For all intents and purposes, we were them 1,000 years ago. Over the course of a couple centuries, exposure to a wider world and the education that came with it helped turn things around for us.
The Internet could be a tool used to accelerate this “re-education” of the Middle East. What took us several centuries doesn’t have to take that long this time. How we get this ball rolling is beyond me, but the region isn’t a hopeless wasteland that is better off being turned into glass with a few large-yield nukes.
[quote]pat wrote:
Good point. But I don’t understand being so motivated by hate that you would damage yourself to propagate it.[/quote]
The Palestinians believe the Israeli to be foreign invaders who occupied a large swath of their territory, which happens to include holy land very important to the Abrahamic religions.
And the radical/militant islamists believe themselves under siege from the Western world.
So they consider themselves freedom fighters.
Whether they are actually righteous or not I don’t know, nor do I particularly care right this instant.
But I consider the opinion that “they don’t want freedom” to be bunk. They want freedom. They just want freedom to do things that we consider bad/not good for our own self-interest.
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
Democracy is a mirage in the Arab world. They are animals. Brutal dictators are the only ones who can keep in animals in check.
That’s not PC, but it’s the damn truth. Thousands of years of history tells us such. [/quote]
[quote]NorCal916 also wrote:
The Indians were badass. The Comanche, for instance, were a tribe of mounted warriors that out-maneuvered, out-rode and out-fought the best-equipped U.S. Cavalry?a feat even more impressive when one considers the Comanche first encountered the horse only in the late 17th century.
And the Iroquois? Whoa.
And speaking of Apache, Geronimo was an Apache. That dude along with 38 of his warriors were so bad ass, the US Gov’T sent 1/5 (one fifth!) of its Army, along with help from the Mexican army, to try to defeat him.
Or The Seminoles in Florida were also very fierce fighters. I believe they were the only Native American nation who technically were never defeated, though they fought three wars with the U.S. This was the only war in which the U.S. sent in its marines and navy as well as its army to fight the Seminoles.
If that’s not bad ass, well I don’t know what is.[/quote]
So let me get this straight:
You respect the Seminoles, the Iroquois and the Apaches for their savagery, their ferocity, and their skill in warfare in defiance of the American military and governmentâ?¦
â?¦but disrespect the Arabs for possessing the same qualities.
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
Democracy is a mirage in the Arab world. They are animals. Brutal dictators are the only ones who can keep in animals in check.
That’s not PC, but it’s the damn truth. Thousands of years of history tells us such. [/quote]
Much like how liberal representative democracy is also a mirage in the western world, seeing as how we’re seeing it slowly fall to pieces in just roughly 100-250 years (depending on the country), ya?
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
Democracy is a mirage in the Arab world. They are animals. Brutal dictators are the only ones who can keep in animals in check.
That’s not PC, but it’s the damn truth. Thousands of years of history tells us such. [/quote]
Much like how liberal representative democracy is also a mirage in the western world, seeing as how we’re seeing it slowly fall to pieces in just roughly 100-250 years (depending on the country), ya?[/quote]
[quote]pat wrote:
Good point. But I don’t understand being so motivated by hate that you would damage yourself to propagate it.[/quote]
The Palestinians believe the Israeli to be foreign invaders who occupied a large swath of their territory, which happens to include holy land very important to the Abrahamic religions.
And the radical/militant islamists believe themselves under siege from the Western world.
So they consider themselves freedom fighters.
Whether they are actually righteous or not I don’t know, nor do I particularly care right this instant.
But I consider the opinion that “they don’t want freedom” to be bunk. They want freedom. They just want freedom to do things that we consider bad/not good for our own self-interest.[/quote]
The proof is in the pudding. Where their have been such ‘freedom’ they voted for oppression. Maybe they do want freedom, but it’s not their highest priority.