The American Way of Life Is Non-Negotiable

[quote]lixy wrote:

The boob-job of the prostitute in the Red District cost her money, and that’s exactly what she’s selling: her body.

But that’s an extreme example. Generally, people trade their skills for money on an open market. My education, which I’m trading openly in the job market cost me money. Why shouldn’t I be able to sell my time and competences to the highest bidder without restrictions?[/quote]

She’s not selling her body. If that were the case, someone would own her like a piece of property.

She is selling a service. I’m sure you think she really likes you, but she just wants you money in exchange for a lew lewd acts.

What the fuck are you even talking about? It’s not the immigration that is a problem - it is illegal immigration, and the drain that said immigrants puts on our welfare system.

Please don’t offer your opinion on this again until someone gives you one.

Show me proof of this policy of “not letting anyone in”. Do we want to stop illegal movement across our borders? You’re fucking right. Does that mean we don’t let anyone in? Maybe in your baby-raping mind it does, but in the real world there is a difference.

[quote]lixy wrote:

Quality of life doesn’t increase linearly with consumption. There is a threshold at which it start to decrease dramatically. In many respects, pollution, obesity and other ills are directly related to overconsumption.
[/quote]
Maybe I should have been more clear. More consumption is an indicator of rising quality of life. Consuming more in the general sense does not lead to reduced quality of life like the interviewee suggests. I was not talking about polution or obesity although both of these also do not rise linearly with consumption. In your words there is a threshold. As standards of living increas people have resourses to address polution, obesity, addiction, etc.

[quote]
Free trade is a good idea. Not argument there. What I’m preaching here is that people act like they got some sense and stop thinking that more is necessarily better (which Dhickey’s post implies).

And while we’re on the subject, where do you stand on the movement of people (as opposed to wealth and merchandise)? Because everytime I have this argument with some down-with-the-barriers type of person, I get the dogs-at-the-border nationalistic speech as well. I’m curious about your position.[/quote]

If you are talking about open borders I am in full support. But only if welfare in any form is eliminated. Healthcare, public financed education, etc. Here in Minnesota we have one of most generous welfare programs that the tax payers of state pay for. We have people that come from all over the county, and other countries, just to take advantage of our generosity. There was just an article about buses taking groups of people from chicago to minneapolis to collect welfare checks every month.

The other problem is people coming undocumented and/or participating in the black market for labor and service. This puts law-abiding employers and workers a definative disadvantage. Eliminate OSSA, minimum wage, licensing requirements, unemployment insurance,capital gains tax, etc. and this would not be an issue.

There is also the issue of population control but this can be addressed in individual communities with zoning laws.

So to recap I am all in favor of open borders as long as there is no welfare in any form, everyone is documented, and there are no regulations that presents a cost to businesses.

If these conditions are not met it would be irresponsible not to control the flow of people.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
We’ll put a boot in your ass. It is the American way. [/quote]

But is it the best way? “My way or the highway” doesn’t sound like a good motto when talking about Politics and World Issues.

Even when you say it humorously, you say it because you have the notion that, to some extent, it’s true.

dhickey, didn’t this firm belief that “More consumption = better quality of life” lead to the recent recessions in economy, the housing bubble, the dot-com bubble, the crisis in the credit market?

[quote]mldj wrote:
dhickey, didn’t this firm belief that “More consumption = better quality of life” lead to the recent recessions in economy, the housing bubble, the dot-com bubble, the crisis in the credit market?[/quote]

Especially if the consumption is paid for with home equity loans on a house declining in value and credit card debt.

[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
mldj wrote:
dhickey, didn’t this firm belief that “More consumption = better quality of life” lead to the recent recessions in economy, the housing bubble, the dot-com bubble, the crisis in the credit market?

Especially if the consumption is paid for with home equity loans on a house declining in value and credit card debt.

[/quote]

Yes, that is bad. Buying things you can afford is a good thing. It keeps the economy rolling and people employed. Buying on ballooning credit is a bad thing. That is not the traditional American way, that is one of the many problems the baby boomers have stuck us with.

[quote]lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
lixy wrote:
orion wrote:
lixy wrote:
dhickey wrote:
More consumption = better quality of life.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is the myth Evil feeds upon.

This Ladies and Gentleman is the fucking truth and only narrowed mindedness regarding what can be a consumer good prolongues this nonsense.

Only after some basic needs are met are we free to pursue what could be called “spiritual goals”. And by investing time and money to pursue them, we also “consume”.

And ascete living on a stick forgoes all earthly pleasures to purify his soul. That however is also an individual preference that costs him other opportunities, it is “consumption” , nothing else.

Plus a totally unrelated gem I found yesterday:

The opposite of the “Liberals” were the “Serviles” when it came to the Spanish discussion whether to have a constitution or not, which is where the “liberals” (old meaning), got their names from-

They, at least, knew what options there were.

Trade free or serve.

Don’t be obtuse.

Quality of life doesn’t increase linearly with consumption. There is a threshold at which it start to decrease dramatically. In many respects, pollution, obesity and other ills are directly related to overconsumption.

Free trade is a good idea. Not argument there. What I’m preaching here is that people act like they got some sense and stop thinking that more is necessarily better (which Dhickey’s post implies).

And while we’re on the subject, where do you stand on the movement of people (as opposed to wealth and merchandise)? Because everytime I have this argument with some down-with-the-barriers type of person, I get the dogs-at-the-border nationalistic speech as well. I’m curious about your position.

Influx of people is not a marketable asset like merchandise and money.

Only if you can buy and sell these people on an open market will they be the same as merchandise.

Isn’t that what the job market is about?

Think about it: Jobs are constantly being relocated to countries where people are willing to work for cheaper. That’s a consequence of not allowing people to move around freely. If you liberalized that, jobs would stay where they are and taxes would be paid to your state instead of an Asian or African one.

I personally find the idea that “things” are freer than people revolting.[/quote]

The classic libertarian answer is that yes, people should be free to move to where ever they want to.

However, we do not live in a libertarian world.

However much I detest a system like Sweden´s, the Swedes seem to like it. How long would it take for their systems to break down if they allowed everybody to come?

Then, there is the issue of language, culture and all the related problems. When money talks it is understood everywhere, this is not true for people. Goods can be manufactured and shipped including a badly translated manual, but they never bring any ideas with then that are alien to the culture they are shipped to.

Free trade at least allows people that would kill each other when they had to live side by side to co-operate peacefully.

That is a lot.

[quote]dhickey wrote:
AssOnGrass wrote:
dhickey wrote:
He should stay away from economics. Not impressive.

I’m not trying to be antagonistic but what specifically are you referring to?

His whole argument that we are doomed becuase we have gone from an “empire of production” to an “empire of consumption”. There are pleny of ways to make a living and manufacturing is no better or worse that many other industries. If we wanted to remain a manufacturing giant we certainly could. It would just mean a reduction in quality of life. Who wants to live like the Chinese? No thanks.

He says that we are now consumers and not producers. This is false. We do not consume more than we produce in real value. If this were even possible it would be a good thing. What we produced may have changed but we are indeed producing more. As much as we consume. It matters not that most of our manufactured goods are made overseas. It matters not that we consume more. More consumption = better quality of life. There is nothing wrong with a better quality of life.
[/quote]

“More consumption = better quality of life.” That’s the ultimate heresy right there. And it’s about the most un-conservative view imaginable, if conservatism actually means anything.

[quote]
I have no idea where he gets his infomation on our trade deficite with the world. These calculations are rarely even close to being accruate. If he is talking about gov’t debt, fine, but the market does not allow trade deficites. Again, it would be great if it did. This would mean that we are getting 800billion dollars of stuff for free every year.

Talk to me when our quality of life is in decline, and then I will be concerned. We have a long way to fall before we equal the quality of life that the manufacturing giants enjoy.[/quote]

Um, the market does allow trade deficits. What do you call our trade deficit with China? That is not imaginary.

More importantly, what Bacevich is saying is that it goes well beyond the national debt (which is a huge problem). It’s the fact that we’ve become a nation that lives in debt and believes in something for nothing. We have a NEGATIVE savings rate as a nation.

This movie looks to be making the same points:
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/08/iousa-a-reallife-disaster-movi.html

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:

Um, the market does allow trade deficits. What do you call our trade deficit with China? That is not imaginary.
…[/quote]

It is temporary and it will correct itself. Chinese goods will get more expensive and American goods will become less so on the world market. It is already happening.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:

More importantly, what Bacevich is saying is that it goes well beyond the national debt (which is a huge problem). It’s the fact that we’ve become a nation that lives in debt and believes in something for nothing. We have a NEGATIVE savings rate as a nation.
[/quote]

Right. He was not making a detailed economic policy decision, rather was looking at the attitude and entitlement of a generation or 2. On which he is quite correct.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:

More importantly, what Bacevich is saying is that it goes well beyond the national debt (which is a huge problem). It’s the fact that we’ve become a nation that lives in debt and believes in something for nothing. We have a NEGATIVE savings rate as a nation.

Right. He was not making a detailed economic policy decision, rather was looking at the attitude and entitlement of a generation or 2. On which he is quite correct.[/quote]

Yes, the babyboomers have fucked us over on many levels. We will get through it though.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:

More importantly, what Bacevich is saying is that it goes well beyond the national debt (which is a huge problem). It’s the fact that we’ve become a nation that lives in debt and believes in something for nothing. We have a NEGATIVE savings rate as a nation.

Right. He was not making a detailed economic policy decision, rather was looking at the attitude and entitlement of a generation or 2. On which he is quite correct.

Yes, the babyboomers have fucked us over on many levels. We will get through it though.[/quote]

The babyboomers are still an extremely large voting block, and frankly with the majority of Americans still approving of the status quo of the biggest underlying problems right now, Social Security and Medicare, the worst is yet to come. Not to mention the plethora of other socialist policies currently be proposed.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:

“More consumption = better quality of life.” That’s the ultimate heresy right there. And it’s about the most un-conservative view imaginable, if conservatism actually means anything.
[/quote]

I am not a conservative.

Um, it doesn’t matter what our trade deficite is with a single country. Much as it doesn’t matter what my trade deficite is with my dentist. Economics 101 my friend. Maybe you should take it before you comment on economic issues.

That part of it I get. I do not spend more than I earn as that would be silly. The part that got me was him drawing destinction between our health as a nation and whether or not we manufacured refrigerators or buy them from somewhere else.

[quote]orion wrote:
The classic libertarian answer is that yes, people should be free to move to where ever they want to.

However, we do not live in a libertarian world.[/quote]

True.

Swedes, by and large, favor tarrifs. Their position has the merit of being consistent.

And to go a bit on a tangent, Sweden’s system is doomed without the influx of foreign workers. Aging population and such…

I’m not sure about the validity of your statement. When I bought my first Nirvana CD, it brought loads of new ideas to my world. Mini-skirts imported to Greece, satellite dishes sold in Algeria, computers in Nigeria all play a certain role. Goods do bring ideas with them.

Cultures evolve. Drinking tea isn’t a British thing originally.

[quote]Free trade at least allows people that would kill each other when they had to live side by side to co-operate peacefully.

That is a lot. [/quote]

I totally agree with that.

What I’m more concerned about is whether the “more consumption = better quality of life” belief makes the world more peaceful or not. I suspect that it inevitably leads to imperialist thinking.

[quote]dhickey wrote:
Um, it doesn’t matter what our trade deficite is with a single country.

[/quote]

Of course not. But the current account deficit does matter.

http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/international/transactions/transnewsrelease.htm

Top 10 countries with which the US has a trade surplus:

  1. Hong Kong
  2. Singapore
  3. UAE
  4. Belgium
  5. Turkey
  6. Australia
  7. Netherlands
  8. Chile
  9. Gibraltar
  10. Panama

I suspect it’s not GDollars that needs an economic lesson.

[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Um, it doesn’t matter what our trade deficite is with a single country.

Of course not. But the current account deficit does matter.

http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/international/transactions/transnewsrelease.htm

Top 10 countries with which the US has a trade surplus:

  1. Hong Kong
  2. Singapore
  3. UAE
  4. Belgium
  5. Turkey
  6. Australia
  7. Netherlands
  8. Chile
  9. Gibraltar
  10. Panama

I suspect it’s not GDollars that needs an economic lesson.
[/quote]

Gibraltar?

That’s priceless.

[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Um, it doesn’t matter what our trade deficite is with a single country.

Of course not. But the current account deficit does matter.

http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/international/transactions/transnewsrelease.htm

Top 10 countries with which the US has a trade surplus:

  1. Hong Kong
  2. Singapore
  3. UAE
  4. Belgium
  5. Turkey
  6. Australia
  7. Netherlands
  8. Chile
  9. Gibraltar
  10. Panama

I suspect it’s not GDollars that needs an economic lesson.

[/quote]

You need to look at what is included, or more specifically whats is not included in these calculations. If they are correct, fabulous. We are getting more than we are giving. Spectacular.

[quote]lixy wrote:

What I’m more concerned about is whether the “more consumption = better quality of life” belief makes the world more peaceful or not. I suspect that it inevitably leads to imperialist thinking.

[/quote]

That is only because you think that more consumptions automatically means more cars, houses and refrigerators.

I can mean more education too, or taking a year off to spend it with your family.

All in all “more consumption = better quality of life” is true.

Of course it’s true - to an extent.

Someone said that he’s not that stupid to spend more than he earns, but the U.S. didn’t follow that strategy.

The government contributed to over-stimulation of “more consumption”, because they lowered the federal fund rate to values, which weren’t backed by the adequate financial reserves.

Maybe some people will spend the major part of the loan, they decided to take because of low rates, smart and will produce more than what they could if they didn’t take it, but that’s hardly the majority.

And your idea of “taking a year off to spend it with your family” demonstrates exactly the way of thinking, which led to the increase of the inflation and the downfall of the dollar rates on international fund markets.

Finding the perfect balance, at a given moment, between higher interest rates/less money circulating/lower economic growth and lower interest rates/more money circulating/higher inflation isn’t simple thing.

But Alan Greenspan wasn’t alone in the making of the proof that more consumption isn’t always better. There were millions of Americans, who helped.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Um, it doesn’t matter what our trade deficite is with a single country.

Of course not. But the current account deficit does matter.

http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/international/transactions/transnewsrelease.htm

Top 10 countries with which the US has a trade surplus:

  1. Hong Kong
  2. Singapore
  3. UAE
  4. Belgium
  5. Turkey
  6. Australia
  7. Netherlands
  8. Chile
  9. Gibraltar
  10. Panama

I suspect it’s not GDollars that needs an economic lesson.

Gibraltar?

That’s priceless.[/quote]

Actually, $506.67 million.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/top/dst/current/surplus.html

[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
lixy wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Um, it doesn’t matter what our trade deficite is with a single country.

Of course not. But the current account deficit does matter.

http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/international/transactions/transnewsrelease.htm

Top 10 countries with which the US has a trade surplus:

  1. Hong Kong
  2. Singapore
  3. UAE
  4. Belgium
  5. Turkey
  6. Australia
  7. Netherlands
  8. Chile
  9. Gibraltar
  10. Panama

I suspect it’s not GDollars that needs an economic lesson.

Gibraltar?

That’s priceless.

Actually, $506.67 million.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/top/dst/current/surplus.html[/quote]

That should be enough to cover a couple of days in Iraq.

Future? What future?