The Al Qaeda Reader

[quote]pookie wrote:
The number 72 comes from an Hadith, which are sayings from Muhammad. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. It’s also “the least reward” so you might get more if you’ve been a particularly worthy servant of Allah.[/quote]

I’m not fond of that Hadith. It’s not part of the “sahih” (literally authentic) which makes it of dubious origins.

Anyway, there is no mention anywhere in the Quran of the number of women you get in paradise, and second, those virgins are available for all Muslims, not just martyrs.

It’s a crack, right?

Let’s first settle the martyr bit. Blowing yourself up in a bus is not martyr. In Islam, it’s a double crime because your life is not yours to dispose off. That out of the way, of course women get boys in heaven. Verse 52:24 can attest to that.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
What I’d like to know is if they really have to be virgins. Couldn’t they be a little bit more experienced?[/quote]

If we meet there, just say the word and I’ll train them for you.

[quote]lixy wrote:
kaaleppi wrote:
What I’d like to know is if they really have to be virgins. Couldn’t they be a little bit more experienced?

If we meet there, just say the word and I’ll train them for you.[/quote]

Ugh, I’m not feeling too well. I’m gonna rest now.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Let’s take the issue of suicide bombers. Obviously a problem in the world. These guys believe what? If they die killing enemy civilians or military, they get 77 virgins in the afterlife? If this belief did not originate in the Koran, where did it originate? Why do the suicide bombers believe this if it is not in part based on their faith?

Why did the Crusaders feel biblically justified in murdering every Jew in Jerusalem during the First Crusade? I think there are a lot of troubling things about Islam, but extremists rarely represent the actual, consensus truth of a religion.[/quote]

Christianity reformed. The Pope hasn’t called for one in about 500 years. It’s a weak comparison to current Islamic behavior.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
What I’d like to know is if they really have to be virgins. Couldn’t they be a little bit more experienced?[/quote]

Well, you’ve basically have eternity to take care of that, so my advice would be: savor the cherries. You’ll really miss them in a trillion trillion trillion years.

[quote]lixy wrote:
kaaleppi wrote:
What I’d like to know is if they really have to be virgins. Couldn’t they be a little bit more experienced?

If we meet there, just say the word and I’ll train them for you.[/quote]

Rumor has it that Muslims are notoriously horrible in bed. That’s why they want virgins - because they are ignorant of how bad the Muslim man is.

Which could be a source of the islamo-fascists’ rage: Little Dick Syndrome.

And LDS could be a reason that there are so many virgins. I’ll leave it to you to do the calculus on that equation.

[quote]lixy wrote:
kaaleppi wrote:
What I’d like to know is if they really have to be virgins. Couldn’t they be a little bit more experienced?

If we meet there, just say the word and I’ll train them for you.[/quote]

Somehow, a large helping of Lixy’s sloppy seconds doesn’t sound to heavenly anymore.

(And yes, the above was a crack.)

[quote]pookie wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Quran 4.89 “They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya’ (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya’ (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.”

Quran 18.74 "Then they both proceeded, till they met a boy, he (Khidr) killed
him. Musa (Moses) said: “Have you killed an innocent person who had killed none?
Verily, you have committed a thing “Nukra” (a great Munkar - prohibited, evil,
dreadful thing)!” But…

Quran 18.80 and 81 “And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared
lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief. So we intended that their Lord should change him for them for one better in righteousness and near to mercy.”

They killed a boy because he might ‘oppress’ his parents? They do so as an act of mercy?

Ummm…yeah…

I wonder if they sawed his head off?

Do you, Lixy, know YOUR Quran?

The usual answer to that is that the real Koran can only be read in Arabic.

Barring that, I think you need to get a better translation.

If I recall correctly, a moslem once suggested to me that I use the one from submission.org. It’s apparently closer to the Arabic text and often has footnotes to explain some of the more difficult nuances.

Then again, you’re not really interested in the Koran, except to denigrate it, right?
[/quote]

Why would you think this last? I would never denigrate a religious text. I might do so to the practitioners though, mainly because they are using a book to replace their thinking, which is simply impossible.

What you and Lixy are pointing out is the main problem of any system: its open to mistranslations and extremism. One more reason for LF capitalism, btw.

[quote]lixy wrote:

Anyway, there is no mention anywhere in the Quran of the number of women you get in paradise, and second, those virgins are available for all Muslims, not just martyrs.

[/quote]

Maybe you don’t get women at all. Who says the virgins are women?

[quote]hedo wrote:
Christianity reformed. The Pope hasn’t called for one in about 500 years. [/quote]

Absolutely.

Yours is the weak comparison. You can’t compare a state sanctioned massive war of aggression (and I don’t mean Iraq) to a handful of kooks hijacking planes. Muslims never gave Al-Qaeda any authority, neither do they condone their actions.

Gkhan asked the following questions: “These guys believe what? If they die killing enemy civilians or military, they get 77 virgins in the afterlife? If this belief did not originate in the Koran, where did it originate? Why do the suicide bombers believe this if it is not in part based on their faith?”

Bringing up the crusades is quite relevant to answer these questions. The inquisition would be another. They both show how a message of peace can be twisted to fit a sinister agenda.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
One more reason for LF capitalism, btw. [/quote]

What is LF capitalism and Why is it extremism-proof?

[quote]lixy wrote:
hedo wrote:
Christianity reformed. The Pope hasn’t called for one in about 500 years.

Absolutely.

It’s a weak comparison to current Islamic behavior.

Yours is the weak comparison. You can’t compare a state sanctioned massive war of aggression (and I don’t mean Iraq) to a handful of kooks hijacking planes. Muslims never gave Al-Qaeda any authority, neither do they condone their actions.

Gkhan asked the following questions: “These guys believe what? If they die killing enemy civilians or military, they get 77 virgins in the afterlife? If this belief did not originate in the Koran, where did it originate? Why do the suicide bombers believe this if it is not in part based on their faith?”

Bringing up the crusades is quite relevant to answer these questions. The inquisition would be another. They both show how a message of peace can be twisted to fit a sinister agenda.[/quote]

The US is a secular state. Islam is a religion. Pretty basic stuff. That’s a stretch even for a propagandist like you. Doubt anyone will fall for it. It’s a silly comparison but it is a basic tenent of angry muslims who use it to justify terrorism. Sound familiar.

The Crusades were organized by the head of a religion, in response to Islamic agression. Previous to that agression the two religions existed together in peace.

What makes the argument disingenuous is the fact that Christianity reformed and the Pope no longer fights for land and converts and hasn’t for 500 years. Islam still fights for grievances that are hundreds of years old. Time for reform.

Bigotry blinds you.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Maybe you don’t get women at all. Who says the virgins are women?
[/quote]

Allah Himself through the Quran.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Maybe you don’t get women at all. Who says the virgins are women?

Allah Himself through the Quran.[/quote]

But it was written by men.

Maybe it was a bunch of homophobic, latent homosexual men…what with all that time out there on the camels and all.

[quote]hedo wrote:
The US is a secular state. Islam is a religion. Pretty basic stuff. [/quote]

What kind of crack are you on? I never even as much as alluded to the US.

What’s the matter with you? I included a parentheses to say that “I DON’T MEAN IRAQ” which obviously refers to the war.

Yours is the weak comparison. You can’t compare a state sanctioned massive war of aggression (and I don’t mean Iraq) to a handful of kooks hijacking planes. Muslims never gave Al-Qaeda any authority, neither do they condone their actions.

You should seriously consider learning some grammar.

What would be these fights that “Islam” is allegedly fighting for “grievances that are hundreds of years old”? And who exactly is this “Islam” you speak of?

Really, put some thoughts into your posts. You’re starting to sound like a teenager in crisis.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
lixy wrote:

Anyway, there is no mention anywhere in the Quran of the number of women you get in paradise, and second, those virgins are available for all Muslims, not just martyrs.

Maybe you don’t get women at all. Who says the virgins are women?

[/quote]

It’s probably a misinterpretation and another episode of the old game of “who hast thee monopoly of interpreting them dusty old tomes”. Because the ones who have usually have the power or stand closely behind the throne. And so they guard it rather tenaciously.

Chance are, the “huris” just meant bunches of tasty grapes.

The main problem in the scientific approach to the koran is , that it is really a dangerous business. German prof Christoph Luxenberg (a pseudonym) was amazed how little research has been done because of fear of death. ALong with arab scientists who are hiding from the sharia’s long arm he managed to find quite a large number of remarkable misinterpretations.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Maybe you don’t get women at all. Who says the virgins are women?

Allah Himself through the Quran.[/quote]

You wish.
Well, as “hur” means white, the common interpretation says that these were meant in the context of “white eyed…virgins”.

I you’re gonna believe your imams, go ahead. I call this a leap of faith. In old aramaic, a closely related language to the classical arabic, it means, “white grapes” and was a common phrase for describing heavenly spheres. Your arabic alphabetical characters were not the same you know today, they were , like the jewish alphabet, without vocal alignment so on character could mean easily five different things.

So, sorry, no virgins for you my friend, makes sense when later in your favorite book, your wife is said to join you in heaven, sitting next to you.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
was a common phrase for describing heavenly spheres.[/quote]

Heavenly spheres? Sounds like tits to me.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
was a common phrase for describing heavenly spheres.

Heavenly spheres? Sounds like tits to me.

[/quote]

…with white nipples? Dude…

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
You wish.
Well, as “hur” means white, the common interpretation says that these were meant in the context of “white eyed…virgins”.

I you’re gonna believe your imams, go ahead. I call this a leap of faith. In old aramaic, a closely related language to the classical arabic, it means, “white grapes” and was a common phrase for describing heavenly spheres. Your arabic alphabetical characters were not the same you know today, they were , like the jewish alphabet, without vocal alignment so on character could mean easily five different things.

So, sorry, no virgins for you my friend, makes sense when later in your favorite book, your wife is said to join you in heaven, sitting next to you. [/quote]

Schwarzy,

That is interesting.

Not the analysis in itself - which is essentially rubbish - but it’s interesting to see the fervor with which people who don’t know the first thing about Arabic and very little about the the history and traditions of Islam lecture me.

Not that I pretend to be an authority in any way, but the “believe your imams” line cracked me up simply because I flip off every Imam on earth. Yet, here you are lecturing me about blindly believing my “Imams” while the best exposure you had to the Holy Book was whatever that Prof. of yours told you. I don’t know if you can sense it but the irony is delightful here.

On to splitting hairs about the Houri…

I’m no Ph.D. in linguistics but the discipline happens to be a hobby of mine. The root of the word would be “hur” which unequivocally translates as “pure”. Whoever told you it means white is seriously misinformed. The evidence to destroy your “white (sour?) grapes” theory is overwhelming.

First, the word that comes right after it is “'ayn”, which unambiguously refers to the eyes. There is simply no way for you to argue otherwise. It’ll be like me arguing with you about how I read in a book, or was told by somebody that “auge” doesn’t mean what you think it does. So, grapes with eyes? I certainly won’t be buying those.

Then we have context. In verse 52:20, we’re told that the Hourisare “mootakieen 'ala soorureen massfoufatin” which would roughly translate as relaxing on fancy sofas (lazy grapes?). In the same verse, we’re even told that the Houris are paired (“jawaznahoom” which would literally translate as married) with the true believers. In 44:54, the same is repeated. i.e: the Houris are “married” to the heaven goer. Better yet, in 55:56 emphasis is put on how “qasirat attaraf” (women with good proportions) have never been touched before neither by men nor any other being.

Adding to this are several authentic (in the sense Hadiths in Sahih al-Bukhari et Sahih Moslim. Then we have a load of quotes of Sahaba (companions of the prophet pbuh), and quotes from the Taba’a (disciples of the Sahaba). They are unanimous about the presence of women in paradise.

I don’t see why would anyone try to stir a controversy about this. There is a mountain of evidence (which I merely scratched) to support the conclusion that Houris are beautiful dames.

I’ll prompt to throw out whatever you’re reading, as it sounds to be pure junk. Seriously, it’s apparently full of disinformation. Cross check your sources and don’t take anyone’s word. I know that one is tempted to just be told and homework can be resource draining, but it’s also essential in this age of information flood.

I hope none of that sounded too offensive.