The Abortion Thread

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< What are those exceptions?[/quote]When they’ve committed a capital crime, when they’re trying to kill my family not out of persecution for the gospel’s sake and when I’m fighting a righteous war.
[/quote]

And there’s also euthanasia and abortion but we’ll go with your answer since BC might like it better.[/quote]

Better question: How do you determine an “exception?”[/quote]

I’ll never say killing someone is good, but the exception is when it becomes a necessary evil. Necessary evil being defined as if one doesn’t commit the evil, then a greater evil(s) will occur. [/quote]

Does capital punishment fit that description?[/quote]

Nope.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< What are those exceptions?[/quote]When they’ve committed a capital crime, when they’re trying to kill my family not out of persecution for the gospel’s sake and when I’m fighting a righteous war.
[/quote]

And there’s also euthanasia and abortion but we’ll go with your answer since BC might like it better.[/quote]

Better question: How do you determine an “exception?”[/quote]

I’ll never say killing someone is good, but the exception is when it becomes a necessary evil. Necessary evil being defined as if one doesn’t commit the evil, then a greater evil(s) will occur. [/quote]

Does capital punishment fit that description?[/quote]

Nope.
[/quote]

Lemme play devil’s advocate for a moment. To some people, especially those in the most violent of gangs, life in prison doesn’t mean anything to them. Life in prison isn’t enough to make them not murderers. They have connects in the prison systems already and will get their dope, sex, and violence in there. Now having the death penalty will discourage at least some people who would otherwise murder. In this sense, the few who receive capital punishment will be enough deterrent to prevent murders in the future for at least some of them.

Capital punishment may work for a very tiny, small number of people but the vast majority of people who are willing to kill another human being, well the threat of punishment is pretty insignificant to them and not a deterrent at all. A search engine can provide all the answers you are looking for. Here is the first one from duckduckgo.com - http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/facts-about-deterrence-and-death-penalty - Therapy is the solution to the problem. Therapy would take funding and our government is like a business, people in prison is a money making opportunity and not an actual solution to the problem. With an increase in the number of people in prison the government takes more money in taxes. Now this is just my thoughts and I believe another internet search will give you more answers ; )

edited for redundancy


^ Conjoined twins Hope and Grace Klare share one heart. Parents Luci and Chris say they were “grateful” to be given the chance to love these two children. ^

Choosing Hope and Grace: How two babies who shared one heart momentarily brought heaven to earth
by Peter Baklinski Fri Jun 22, 2012

(Editor’s note: LifeSiteNews dedicates this story to Luci and Chris who celebrate tomorrow the 3rd anniversary of the passing of their children Hope and Grace. Luci told LifeSiteNews that the Klare family is flourishing with baby Joseph being born just in time (2 weeks ago) to give older sister Maria, age 2, a playmate.)

COVINGTON, Kentucky, June 22, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Luci and Chris Klare were barely married three months when, in December 2008, a pregnancy test revealed that they were nine months away from becoming a family. The couple was exuberant.

“It was joyful and frightening, but mostly pure elation,” recounted Luci on her family’s blog.

But the parents’ elation was short-lived. Two months into the pregnancy a visit to the doctor revealed that Luci was carrying conjoined twins who amazingly shared a single beating heart.

The doctor gave the twins one percent chance of survival.

Luci and Chris remember experiencing an impossible mix of emotions. They were elated by the thought of having twins but devastated by the thought of losing their babies so quickly.

The couple spent a number of days crying in each other’s arms, trying to find a way to make sense of the situation.

“God, why us?,” they asked time and time again.

Luci found consolation in remembering the loud and clear thumping of her babies’ heartbeat that she had heard during the doctor’s appointment. “When I heard their heart beat for the first time, I was in love.” The echo of that heartbeat in her memory reminded her that she was still a mother and these unusual babies were still her children.

“It didn’t matter what form they came in or what their chances were, they were our children,” the parents realized.

But the parents could not help but look upon the forthcoming birth of their children with fear and uncertainty.

“We struggled countless times, but we took it one day at a time and one prayer at a time. Each day brought new hope as we grew closer to them being born. We still cried often together - when we were scared of what our future held - but those days were less often than the ones where we laughed and felt overjoyed to feel them kick, to see them grow in our weekly ultrasounds, and to hear their heart beating”

While the parents did not 'completely understand" how to make sense of what was happening, they “simply wanted to trust” that what was put before them “was the will of God, and therefore perfect”.

Luci and Chris’s close friends and family members found it hard to understand why the young couple was given such a heavy burden to bear. But the young couple began to see things through the eyes of faith.

“We feel chosen for this task”, the parents learned to say to their friends and family members. “Our sufferings come in so many different ways and in so many different sizes. The suffering is only not knowing when they will be with us or leave us. But we have been chosen and are grateful to be given this chance to love two children of whom many mothers and fathers would have chosen to terminate their chances of life.”

Treasuring the Gift

In June 2009, Luci gave birth to conjoined girls, naming them Hope and Grace. Together they weighed 6.8 pounds. Each had a full head of hair.

“They were born kissing and hugging each other, and they were beautiful,” Chris remembers.

The parents knew that they did not have much time with their precious daughters.

The doctors gently placed the baby girls into the arms of Chris, who immediately baptized them so that they would now belong to God’s family. During the brief ceremony, both girls had their eyes open and were gazing upon their father and their mother.

“One of the girls looked over at her mom and gave her a big wink,” Chris remembers.

For the next 46 minutes, Luci and Chris’s whole universe revolved around treasuring the fragile gift of their tiny children.

Luci held the girls upon her chest, placing their single heart right next to hers. “We cried in joy and love. And we sat there together as a family in love,” she said.

“They watched every breath and savored each second” recounted Luci’s sister Maria who was in the hospital room.

Luci and Chris could not stop gazing upon their girls with love.

Maria recounted how Luci kept saying over and over again, “I’m just bursting with joy, I can’t explain it. I just love them so much.”

“I’m not sure what it feels like for Heaven to pour down on me, but this must be it,” said Luci. “I am just so happy.”

The girls’ time of departure was beginning to draw near. Chris held his babies until they took their last breath and their single heart gave its last beat.

“Then the little girls peacefully, so very peacefully, left for their trip to paradise. Hand in hand, they went eagerly to see the King who created them so specially,” said Maria.

Shortly after the girls’ passing, Luci and Chris invited family members into the hospital room to bid farewell to the tiny babies.

“Everyone rotated into the hospital room a little at a time,” said Maria. “Most of us held the little treasures and marveled at their tiny hands and long feet - Everyone just kept saying, ‘They are so beautiful.’”

It was finally time for Luci and Chris to say a final farewell to their baby girls. The parents wept bitterly.

“From the depths of their souls came a sorrow that only a parent who has lost a child could know,” said Maria.

Love Letters

Two weeks passed by.

Luci found the courage to share on her family’s blog the miracle of love that took place in the hospital room. She wrote her thoughts in the form of a love letter to Hope and Grace.

[i]"My Dearest Daughters,

"I miss you. I love you. It's hard to believe that it was more than two weeks ago that I received the news that you were to be born to me that Tuesday evening. I was so scared. I was so unprepared to finally meet you. I truly was not ready to part from the joy you brought while I carried you.

"I shook with such anguish knowing that once you left the comfort of my belly, that you would shortly leave me forever here on earth.

"You came to us at 6:01 pm, and you both took your first breaths of life. When I saw them carry you both over to the warming table and your Pappa by your side to baptize you, it was the proudest moment of my life. I couldn't believe that you were mine and that God had given me such a beautiful family.

"It is an image I will never forget - Your Pappa in his blue scrubs baptizing your foreheads with holy water, and though I could not see your face Hope, I know your eyes were open looking at your father. And Grace your eyes open looking at me for the first time. To see your eyes so big and beautiful staring back at me let me know that the ultimate gift had been given to your Pappa and I - the gift of life.

"When your Pappa brought you over to my arms I was so impatient to get every glimpse of you I could. We sat together for the first time as a family. How big all our hearts grew in that moment.

"In your Pappa's arms and my hand caressing your faces, I was in love.

"I fell in love with your curly hair, your smooshed noses, your long fingers and long feet and so in love with your beautiful bodies that were connected together in a hug so tight, that even God did not choose to separate.

"I was so proud to show you to our families that gathered in prayer and love to welcome you into this world. We were all there, expecting you to come to us and to fill our hearts, and you did.

"How I miss your sweet lives in my arms. It is a feeling I will never forget for the rest of my life.

"When I go to bed, I can still feel you on my chest, pressing our hearts against each other, as we did in the hospital bed. And I hold my heart so tightly as though I am holding you again.

"And though your sweet heart finished beating, the hearts of your Pappa and I are still here.

"We were not overwhelmed with grief or pain: we saw such beauty and comfort in knowing that you were here and with us. I couldn't stop the awe that overwhelmed me in that you were right there in my arms snuggling with me. It was truly what I had asked the Lord for, and he did give it to me.

"And as I watched your Pappa bathe you and dress you, and look at you in such pride and love, I think I fell in love with you three all over again.

"And today, my sweet Hope and Grace, I have to continue without seeing your faces or watching your Pappa hold you, until we are called to be with you in Heaven. And this hurts my heart the most.

"I know you must hate it when I cry everyday and have this longing pain to be with you, but it is because I love you. It is good this pain and suffering I feel for you daily, for I hope that it only makes me stronger to be a saint like you have taught me; that way, I may go to Heaven right away and sweep you back into my arms again where I desperately need you to be.

"Please pray for me, girls that I will be strong, that I will be patient and most of all that I will be completely surrendered to God's Will.

"We have had such a tremendous journey together. Haven't we? You have been with me at each second, of each moment of each day for the past 8 months and now you are with Jesus.

"Thank you my darlings for bringing me the greatest joy my heart has ever known. Thank you my sweet dumplings for making me so proud of who you have become to so many people who have heard your story of life.

"Thank you Hope and Grace for filling my heart with your love. I will always cherish and appreciate that God gave you to us. He gave your Pappa and I life with you in our arms; something that was supposed to have never even have happened.

"I am so unworthy of such a gift.

"You brought to me Heaven in a little room, in this big world.

"God has called you girls each by name. We love you and will be with you again."

A year later, on the anniversary of their birthday, Chris wrote his own letter of love to his departed daughters.

"One year ago today at 6:01 pm you made me the proudest and happiest Papa ever! It was on June 23, 2009 when I finally received the answers to my prayers.

"I got to see you face-to-face - I got to meet my beautiful daughters.

"It was both of you who showed me the beauty of life, the heavenly sacrifices and the gratitude of all that God has blessed me with. I thank you both for giving me the honor of loving you, reading to you, holding you until you left for a higher journey, and for allowing me to be your Papa.

"You girls, mean more to me than words can ever describe. So much that I have reserved a place in my heart especially for you. A place that can never be filled and a constant reminder of what I must fulfill to someday be given an eternal opportunity to meet you face-to-face and hold you again."

The Beauty of Life

Photographer Melanie Pace, whose profound pictures capture the birth, life, and death of the two girls summarized in her own words the power of love that she witnessed that day in the hospital room: “God gave us these girls to teach us the beauty of life. To remind us how blessed we are even in times when it feels quite the opposite.”

Today, Luci and Chris find consolation in the words of the Psalmist: “you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made (Psalm 139:13-14).”

“To this very day I read this verse and look at pictures of Hope and Grace and see God’s perfection,” said Luci to LifeSiteNews. “I see how much effort God put into ‘knitting’ two such beautiful souls together through one heart and how blessed I am to be their mother. Their lives have touched so many people in so many incredible ways.”

“Hope and Grace, you showed me that all this time your Pappa and I were right about you, in that you are fighters for life and for faith! We were right in that, even though God has asked so much of our little family, that much was also given to us. It is something only that our four souls will truly ever know - how beautiful it all really was … and is.”


^ I survived a tubal pregnancy, and mommy did too.^

  • Mason M.
    September 26, 2010

[b][i]The inalienable right to life possessed by every human being is present from the moment of initial formation, and all human beings shall be entitled to the equal protection of persons under the law.

                            Ectopic Personhood[/b][/i]

Bill Fortenberry

cliff notes as I understood the article. In fact I just copied key portions ; )
-“Neither in Texas nor in any other State are all abortions prohibited.”
-Surgeon General C. Everett Koop said “Protection of the life of the mother as an excuse for an abortion is a smoke screen. In my thirty-six years in pediatric surgery I have never known of one instance where the child had to be aborted to save the mother’s life.”
-“Over a fourteen year period, this single hospital treated 4.4 ruptured ectopic pregnancies per year, but the CDC only reported 26.3 ectopic related deaths per year. If tubal ruptures were definitely fatal, then that would mean that this one hospital has witnessed 1/6 of all the ectopic related deaths in America.” --“According to Dr. Tenore of the Northwestern University Medical School in Chicago, this type of pregnancy occurs in 1 out of every 2,600 pregnancies, and 50% of them (1 out of every 5,200 pregnancies) ‘are identified only after tubal rupture.’”
-“In 2002, a worldwide study of 632 ruptured ectopic pregnancies treated with autotransfusion reported only a single instance of death.”
-“In spite of all the claims to the contrary, doctors are often amazed by the unborn child’s ability to develop and grow regardless of his location within his mother’s body.”
-“This ability of the child to detach and reattach indicates that it may eventually be possible for doctors to transplant an ectopic pregnancy into the womb.”
-“The mother’s survival is almost certain, and the survival of the child is at least possible if not probable. Dr. Koop was correct. The personhood of the unborn child does not conflict with the need to protect the life of the mother for the simple reason that abortion is never necessary for that protection.” . . . . “Ectopic pregnancies can be survived, and we can prohibit all abortions without any exceptions.”

(This article was updated on June 20, 2012, to include answers to questions about the distinction between tubal pregnancies and abdominal pregnancies.)

One of the most ardently presented pro-choice arguments is the claim that abortion is sometimes necessary in order to save the life of the mother. This argument has been very effective over the years and has been used to persuade pro-life politicians to include a life of the mother exception to nearly every law designed to limit abortions. Very few politicians realize that the inclusion of a life of the mother exception is a tacit admission that the unborn child is not a person. Even more rare is the politician who realizes that Justice Blackmun cited this very exception to justify his decision in Roe v. Wade.

“If this suggestion of personhood is established, the appellant’s case, of course, collapses, for the fetus’ right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the (Fourteenth) Amendment … When Texas urges that a fetus is entitled to Fourteenth Amendment protection as a person, it faces a dilemma. Neither in Texas nor in any other State are all abortions prohibited. Despite broad proscription, an exception always exists. The exception contained in Art. 1196, for an abortion procured or attempted by medical advice for the purpose of saving the life of the mother, is typical. But if the fetus is a person who is not to be deprived of life without due process of law, and if the mother’s condition is the sole determinant, does not the Texas exception appear to be out of line with the Amendment’s command?” [1]

If we are ever to succeed in overcoming the Roe decision, then it is imperative that we answer the dilemma presented by Justice Blackmun. How can a personhood amendment be reconciled with the need to protect the life of the mother?

The solution to this dilemma is actually quite simple, but the majority of Americans find it so contrary to their perspective that they tend to reject it without even the slightest consideration. Surgeon General C. Everett Koop answered the dilemma in this way: “Protection of the life of the mother as an excuse for an abortion is a smoke screen. In my thirty-six years in pediatric surgery I have never known of one instance where the child had to be aborted to save the mother’s life.”[2] Dr. Koop has been made the subject of much ridicule since making that statement, but is it possible that he is right? Most Americans would answer with an emphatic, “No,” but let us not be so hasty. Let’s take the time to consider the evidence before we arrive at our conclusion.

Without a doubt, the most frequently presented example of a case in which the mother’s life may be in danger if an abortion is not performed is the case of an ectopic pregnancy. An ectopic pregnancy is a pregnancy in which the child is growing in an area of the mother’s body other than the womb. In most of these cases, the child is found to be growing in one of the mother’s fallopian tubes. Occasionally the child will grow in the mother’s abdominal cavity, and on very rare occasions he will begin to develop inside of one of her ovaries. These pregnancies are generally assumed to be fatal unless an abortion is performed, and the explanation is given that it is better to save the mother by killing the unborn child than to do nothing and allow both of them to die.

When we take the time to examine scientific studies of ectopic pregnancies, however, an entirely different picture comes to light. To begin with, let’s consider the Center for Disease Control estimate of 108,800 ectopic pregnancies in America in 1992. [3] According to the above assumption, this number is equal to the number of women who would have died if abortion had not been available to them as a treatment. The CDC also reported an average of 26.3 ectopic related deaths per year from 1991 - 1999,[4] and the proponents of abortion tout these figure as proof that abortion is necessary to save thousands of lives per year. However, that boast is made in ignorance of several additional studies.

The actual danger that an ectopic pregnancy poses to the mother is that of a tubal rupture or some other kind of hemorrhage which could cause the mother to lose a vital amount of blood. However, the Cleveland Clinic Foundation reported that, from 1983 to 1996, they treated 62 patients who had experienced a tubal rupture.[5] Over a fourteen year period, this single hospital treated 4.4 ruptured ectopic pregnancies per year, but the CDC only reported 26.3 ectopic related deaths per year. If tubal ruptures were definitely fatal, then that would mean that this one hospital has witnessed 1/6 of all the ectopic related deaths in America. While this would be highly unlikely, it is certainly not impossible, and so we turn to the next study on our list.

The entire southern region of Israel only saw 13 pregnancy related deaths over a 23 year period extending from 1969 to 1991. [6] This comes to an average of .57 deaths per year. In 1991, the Soroka University Hospital in Be’er Sheva reported 148 ruptured ectopic pregnancies.[7] If we assume that every single one of the .57 pregnancy related deaths occurred at this one hospital and that all .57 of them were the result of ruptured ectopic pregnancies, we still would only be able to calculate a .4% chance that a ruptured ectopic pregnancy will cause the death of the mother (.57 deaths divided by 148 ruptures equals a .4% fatality rate). This means that at least 99.6% of all the ruptured ectopic pregnancies in southern Israel do not result in the death of the mother and that the claim that abortion must be performed in order to prevent death from a ruptured ectopic pregnancy is undoubtedly spurious.

In addition, we could calculate the maternal risk from the total number of heterotopic pregnancies (twins with one child in the womb and the other being ectopic) in America. According to Dr. Tenore of the Northwestern University Medical School in Chicago, this type of pregnancy occurs in 1 out of every 2,600 pregnancies, and 50% of them (1 out of every 5,200 pregnancies) “are identified only after tubal rupture.”[8] According to the American Pregnancy Association, there are approximately 6 million pregnancies per year in the US.[9] Therefore, there are an average of 1,154 heterotopic pregnancies every year in America which are not even discovered much less treated prior to tubal rupture. The CDC reported that there are an average of 26.3 maternal deaths per year that are ectopic related.[10] If we assumed that all of these ectopic related deaths were the result of an undiagnosed heterotopic pregnancy (a condition which only makes up 1% of the total number of ectopic pregnancies), then we would still arrive at a maternal survival rate of 97.7%.

Of course, this leads us to the question of how these mothers were able to survive such an ordeal. Nearly a century ago, a doctor in Germany reported success in using autotransfusion to treat ruptured ectopic pregnancies.[11] Autotransfusion involves siphoning the blood which has spilled into the abdominal cavity, running it through a filter and then pumping it back into the mother’s body. In 2002, a worldwide study of 632 ruptured ectopic pregnancies treated with autotransfusion reported only a single instance of death.[12] That’s a success rate of 99.84%. This study demonstrates that this non-abortive treatment is more successful than the preferred abortion method which has a success rate of just 99.6%.[13]

Clearly, we can see that ectopic pregnancies are not likely to be fatal to the mother, but what of the child? Those confronted with this evidence will undoubtedly ask if it is ethical to cause the mother to experience the pain of an ectopic pregnancy if there is no hope of her child’s survival. However, the assumption that the child cannot survive an ectopic pregnancy is just as groundless as the same claim about the mother.

The ability of the child to survive an ectopic pregnancy is a fact that is often hidden from the general public. WebMD,[14] Emedicine,[15] the Mayo Clinic[16] and even the US Department of Health’s web portal, PubMed Health,[17] all state on their websites that the child cannot survive an ectopic pregnancy. Ironically, the Department of Health’s online library, PubMed Central, contains several professional articles with titles such as “Full Term Intra-abdominal Pregnancy with Living Mother and Child,” but these are buried away in areas seldom seen by the public.[18]

In reality, there have been many reports of successful ectopic pregnancies. Two obstetricians in New York, Dr.'s Hellman and Simon, published details on 316 ectopic pregnancies which resulted in live births between 1809 and 1935.[19] (Only half of these children survived their first week of life, but these births occurred long before the development of the first neonatal intensive care unit. With modern technology, it is likely that many more would have survived.) For more recent examples, we can consider that in September of 1999, Ronan Ingram was successfully delivered via c-section. Ronan had implanted in one of his mother’s fallopian tubes which subsequently ruptured as he grew into the abdominal cavity.[20] Sage Dalton was born in July of 1999 after developing in the amniotic membrane outside her mother’s womb.[21] In May of 2008, Durga Thangarajah was born after spending a full nine months in her mother’s ovary.[22] And Billy Jones was born in 2008 after developing in his mother’s abdominal cavity.[23] The reports go on and on and on.[24] In spite of all the claims to the contrary, doctors are often amazed by the unborn child’s ability to develop and grow regardless of his location within his mother’s body.

Most of the doctors who have written about successful ectopic pregnancies have focused primarily on the details of one or two cases while repeating the claim that survival of the child is extremely rare and unlikely. There are a few, however, who have taken the initiative to study multiple cases, and their conclusions have been markedly different. A 1996 study from Chile, for example, found that out of 11 abdominal pregnancies, there were 7 live births with 5 of those children surviving the neonatal period.[25] Another study conducted in 2008 reviewed 158 abdominal pregnancies worldwide and found that 28% of the children survived the perinatal period but did not report on the actual number of live births.[26] These reports are consistent with a 2010 article which stated that the reported perinatal survival rate for abdominal pregnancies ranges from 5-60%.[27] With reported survival rates as high as 60%, it is difficult to imagine why so many doctors would refer to such cases with terminology approaching the miraculous.

Perhaps the explanation lies in the subtle distinction between tubal pregnancies and abdominal pregnancies. A tubal pregnancy is by far the most common type of ectopic pregnancy, and it occurs when the child implants and begins to grow in one the mother’s fallopian tubes rather than in the womb. An abdominal pregnancy is a more rare type of pregnancy in which the child grows in the mother’s abdominal cavity instead of in the womb. Most of the reports of children surviving ectopic pregnancies refer to those pregnancies as abdominal pregnancies. This has led many people to believe that there is a major distinction between abdominal pregnancies and tubal pregnancies and that only those ectopic children which implant in the abdomen can survive. For example, the Association of Pro-Life Physicians has stated that “there are several cases in the medical literature where abdominal ectopic pregnancies have survived,” but they followed that statement with the claim that “there are no cases of ectopic pregnancies in a fallopian tube surviving.”[28]

The error in this belief is aptly explained in a 1982 article by Dr. J. F. Clark entitled “Embryo Transfer In Vivo.” In that article, Dr. Clark demonstrated that, in a tubal pregnancy, the rupture of the fallopian tube does not kill the unborn child. In many cases, the child will detach from the ruptured tube on his own and reattach on another surface in the abdominal cavity.[29] This ability of the child to detach and reattach indicates that it may eventually be possible for doctors to transplant an ectopic pregnancy into the womb. Unfortunately, the current acceptance of abortion as a method of treatment has caused this avenue of research to be largely abandoned. Nonetheless, the natural ability of the child to perform this feat has made it possible for a significant number of tubal pregnancies to result in live births.

It is possible to derive a rough calculation of the percentage of children who could survive a tubal pregnancy. There have been multiple studies of expectant management of ectopic pregnancies. (Expectant management refers to cases in which the doctor monitors the pregnancy closely but does not administer any direct treatment.) It has been discovered that a large percentage of ectopic pregnancies resolve on their own with the death of the child before he grows large enough to cause a rupture of the fallopian tube. In one study of 179 tubal pregnancies, it was found that 41.9% of all tubal pregnancies result in the death of the child at this stage.[30] This means that approximately 58% of the children continue to grow until they eventually rupture their mothers’ fallopian tubes. Dr. Clark demonstrated that the rupture itself does not cause the death of the child and that he will subsequently implant on some other surface in the abdominal cavity. According to Dr. Clark, 45% of these children will implant on a surface that has enough of a blood supply for the unborn child to survive all the way to 28 weeks of gestation. At any point after 28 weeks, the child can be delivered alive via c-section with a very good chance for survival. (Deliveries as early as 21 weeks have been reported, but the majority of those children do not survive the neonatal period.) Given these two percentages, we can calculate that 26% of all tubal pregnancies could result in a live birth.

Thus, we can see that the distinction between tubal pregnancies and abdominal pregnancies is often one of progression only. Within the scientific literature, abdominal pregnancies are often separated into two classes - primary abdominal pregnancies in which the child initially implanted on a surface in the abdomen and secondary abdominal pregnancies in which the child initially implanted within the ovaries, tubes or uterus and then either grew into or reimplanted into the abdominal cavity. The vast majority of abdominal pregnancies are of the secondary classification as a result of the child’s ability to reimplant in the abdomen after a tubal rupture.[31] In addition to this, Dr. Clark also wrote another article in which he described a tubal pregnancy that proceeded all the way to term without rupturing.[32] The claim that tubal pregnancies cannot survive is therefore proven false on two levels. It is possible but rare for the child to survive a tubal pregnancy without a rupture of the tubes, and there is at least a 26% chance that the child will survive in spite of a tubal rupture.

Unfortunately, as Dr. Clark pointed out, many cases of ectopic pregnancy are misdiagnosed; and the doctor does not realize that anything is wrong until after the child has already died. If these misdiagnosed ectopics were properly recognized prior to the 28th week, then the doctor would be able to closely monitor the condition of both the child and the mother so that a c-section delivery could be initiated immediately if the condition of either patient begins to worsen. In addition, the misdiagnosis of ectopic pregnancies has also caused the death of many children prior to their 28th week of development. This often occurs when the doctor diagnoses the pregnancy as a tumor and initiates surgery to remove it. The placenta is usually very thin in ectopic pregnancies, and the probing of the surgical instruments is often enough to puncture it and cause the death of the child before the doctor is even aware that he is there. As one author put it, “The deleterious effect of abdominal pregnancy on the mother and fetus is partly related to the morbidity of the surgical interventions.”[33]

As we can see, ectopic pregnancies are not necessarily fatal for either the mother or the child. The mother’s survival is almost certain, and the survival of the child is at least possible if not probable. Dr. Koop was correct. The personhood of the unborn child does not conflict with the need to protect the life of the mother for the simple reason that abortion is never necessary for that protection. There are other solutions available. More than one obstetrician has recommended that women with ectopic pregnancies should be placed under the constant vigil of a well equipped hospital until their children have developed enough to be delivered alive rather than sacrificed unnecessarily.[34] Ectopic pregnancies can be survived, and we can prohibit all abortions without any exceptions.

[1] Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973)

[2] C. Everett Koop, M. D., “A Physician Speaks About Abortion,” http://www.pathlights.com/abortion/abort08.htm(accessed December 03, 2011)

[3] Center for Disease Control, “Current Trends Ecoptic Pregnancy.” http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00035709.htm (accessed December 03, 2011)

[4] Center for Disease Control, “Pregnancy-Related Mortality Surveillance,” Pregnancy-Related Mortality Surveillance --- United States, 1991--1999 (accessed December 03, 2011)

[5] Tommaso Falcone, Edward J. Mascha, Jeffrey M. Goldberg, Lourdes L. Falconi, Geeta Mohla, and Marjan Attaran. “A Study of Risk Factors for Ruptured Tubal Ectopic Pregnancy,” Journal of Women’s Health. May 1998, 7(4): 459-463. doi:10.1089/jwh.1998.7.459.

[6] J. R. Leiberman, D. Fraser, M. Mazor and M. Glezerman, “Maternal Mortality in Southern Israel,” Archives of Gynecology and Obstetrics, 252(4): 203-207, DOI: 10.1007/BF02426359

[7] M. Glezerman, F. Press and M. Carpman, “Culdocentesis is an Obsolete Diagnostic Tool in Suspected Ectopic Pregnancy,” Archives of Gynecology and Obstetrics, 252(1): 5-9, DOI: 10.1007/BF02389600

[8] J. L. Tenore, “Ectopic Pregnancy,” Am Fam Physician. 2000 Feb 15;61(4):1080-1088.

[9] “Statistics,” American Pregnancy Association, http://www.americanpregnancy.org/main/statistics.html (accessed April 12, 2012).

[10] Chang J, Elam-Evans LD, Berg CJ, et al. "Pregnancy-related mortality surveillance ‘United States 1991-1999,’ MMWR Surveill Summ 2003; 52:1’8.

[11] S Edwin Duncan, Gerald Klebanoff, Waid Rogers, “A Clinical Experience with Intraoperative Autotransfusion,” Annals of Surgery 180(3): 296-304,

[12] D.O Selo-Ojemea, J.L Onwudea, U Onwudiegwu, “Autotransfusion for Ruptured Ectopic Pregnancy,” International Journal of Gynecology & Obstetrics, 80(2): 103-110, DOI:10.1016/S0020-7292(02)00379-X

[13] Clarisa R Gracia M.D.a, Hillary A Brown M.D.b, Kurt T Barnhart M.D.M.S.C.E., “Prophylactic methotrexate after linear salpingostomy: a decision analysis,” Fertility and Sterility, 76(6): 1191-1195, DOI:10.1016/S0015-0282(01)02906-5

[14] WebMD, “Ectopic Pregnancy - What Happens” May 06, 2011, Ectopic Pregnancy Diagnosis: How to Recognize Early Signs (accessed May 15, 2012)

[15] Sepilian, Vicken P, MD, MSc, “Ectopic Pregnancy” Medscape Reference, March 26, 2012, Ectopic Pregnancy: Practice Essentials, Background, Etiology (accessed May 15, 2012)

[16] Mayo Clinic, “Ectopic Pregnancy” February 09, 2012, Ectopic pregnancy - Symptoms & causes - Mayo Clinic (accessed May 15, 2012)

[17] PubMed Health, “Ectopic Pregnancy” February 21, 2010, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001897/ (accessed May 15, 2012)

[18] Teh, Hu Sin “Full Term Intra-abdominal Pregnancy with Living Mother and Child,” PubMed Central, Full Term Intra-abdominal Pregnancy with Living Mother and Child - PMC (accessed May 15, 2012)

[19] Hellman, A. and J. H. Simon, “Full Term Intra-abdominal Pregnancy,” American Journal of Surgery, 29:403, 1935.

[20] BBC News, “Doctors hail ‘miracle’ baby,” BBC News | Health | Doctors hail 'miracle' baby (accessed December 03, 2011)

[21] The American Registry for Diagnostic Medical Sonography, “Broadcast of ‘Miracle Ectopic Pregnancy’ Brought Quick Response by ARDMS,” Registry Reports, XVI(5):1

[22] Rebekah Cavanagh, “Miracle baby may be a world first,” NT News, May 30, 2008, http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2008/05/30/4247_ntnews.html (accessed December 03, 2011)

[23] Laura Collins, “Miracle baby Billy grew outside his mother’s womb,” Miracle baby Billy grew outside his mother's womb | Daily Mail Online (accessed December 03, 2011)

[24] I have personally discovered more than 400 reports of live birth from ectopic pregnancy. A partial listing of those reports can be found at Successful Ectopic Pregnancies

[25] Theodore J. Dubinsky MD, Francisco Guerra MD, Gustavo Gormaz MD, Nabil Maklad MD, PhD, “Fetal survival in abdominal pregnancy: A review of 11 cases,” Journal of Clinical Ultrasound, 24(9): 513Ã?¢??517, December 1996

[26] D Nkusu Nunyalulendho, EM Einterz, “Advanced abdominal pregnancy: case report and review of 163 cases reported since 1946,” Rural and Remote Health, December 91, 2008

[27] Ayinur Nahar Hamid, Rokeya Begum, Zackya Sultana, Nargis Akhter, “Advanced Abdominal Pregnancy: A Case Report,” Journal of Chittagong Medical College Teachers’ Association, 21(1): 74-76, 2010

[28] The Association of Pro-Life Physicians, “Are There Rare Cases When an Abortion Is Justified?” http://www.prolifephysicians.org/rarecases.htm (accessed June 20, 2012)

[29] John F.J. Clark, MD, FACOG, “Embryo Transfer In Vivo,” Journal of the National Medical Association, Vol. 74, No. 8, 1982 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2552973/pdf/jnma00062-0019.pdf)

[30] Elson J, Tailor A, Banerjee S, Salim R, Hillaby K, Jurkovic D, “Expectant management of tubal ectopic pregnancy: prediction of successful outcome using decision tree analysis,” Ultrasound in Obstetrics and Gynecology, 2004 Jun, 23(6): 552-6 (Expectant management of tubal ectopic pregnancy: prediction of successful outcome using decision tree analysis - PubMed)

[31] Eric Delabrousse, Olivier Site, Arlette Le Mouel, Didier Riethmuller, Bruno Kastler, “Intrahepatic Pregnancy: Sonography and CT Findings,” American Journal of Roentgenology 173: 1377-1378, November 1999

[32] JF Clark, MD, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Howard University College of Medicine, Washington, D.C., “Follow-Up of Live Extra-Uterine Pregnancies,” Journal of the Natinal Medical Association, January, 1974; 66(1): 69-70, 52 (Follow-up of live extra-uterine pregnancies. - PMC)

[33] Amanda Cotter MD, Luis Izquierdo MD, Fernando Heredia MD, “Abdominal Pregnancy,” TheFetus.net, 2002, accessed June 03, 2012 (Advancing Medical Education: Institute for Advanced Medical Education (IAME))

[34] Mathias Sapuri and Cecil Klufio, “A case of advanced viable extrauterine pregnancy,” Papua New Guinea Medical Journal, 40(1): 44-47, March 1997

Cortes - I hope you are OK with me posting this article here. Especially now, this issue is tied with abortion. Making a religious institution go against one their core beliefs, that is against a cornerstone which is one of the greatest in American policy.

Cliff notes - I bolded what I believe to be the most important portion of the article

‘This is the end of America’: Bestselling author takes on the HHS mandate
by Ben Johnson Fri Jun 22, 2012

GRAND RAPIDS, MICHIGAN, June 22, 2012, (LifeSiteNews.com) - If he were alive today, Dietrich Bonhoeffer would tell Americans to oppose the HHS mandate and regard the measure as an infringement on religious freedom, according to his biographer.

Bestselling author Eric Metaxas said the ObamaCare mandate stood as “a horrific example” of state overreach.

Metaxas, the author of Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy, made his remarks last Thursday before a crowd of more than 800 attendees of Acton University, a four-day seminar held near the Acton Institute’s headquarters in Grand Rapids.

A student with the Fellowship of Catholic University Students asked Metaxas, “What advice do you think Bonhoeffer would say to us, specifically thinking about the U.S. situation?”

“Read and sign the Manhattan Declaration, and be aware what is happening,” Metaxas began.

After an hour-long talk featuring the details of the Nazi-era Lutheran pastor’s life, Metaxas said Bonhoeffer’s message is that Christians “have to be able to read the times.”

“You have to know when to merely pray for your leaders or when to take action,” he said.

The requirement that religious institutions violate their consciences proves “the government, with all its power, can bully people,” he said. “This is the end of America.”

“Every Protestant needs to know and every American needs to know, that this is a threat to the United States of America,” Metaxas, who is an evangelical Christian, told the crowd. “It has nothing to do with your view of contraception- It’s the principle of religious freedom. This is the very heart of who we are as a people.”

The task of fighting for religious liberty will fall to clergy and concerned activists, because it “is difficult in this media to talk about this, even on Fox News,” he stated, adding that most Fox News commentators don’t “get” the issue.

However, Metaxas addresses the issue in a new video released by the Acton Institute, with Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse of The Ruth Institute, who also taught at Acton University.

“This is an absolutely vital principle,” Metaxas said following his speech. “We’ve got to fight.”

[b]Although he said emphatically that the violation of the First Amendment represented by the HHS mandate in no way compares with Adolf Hitler’s anti-Christian actions, the decision to subordinate the church"s role to the state “is exactly what happened with Bonhoeffer.”

Bonhoeffer’s message to modern American Christians is that “we must see what’s happening, and together we can fight, and we can win.”[/b]

His remarks came following a well-received speech sprinkled liberally with humor, including a brief autobiographical remark about his role as narrator in the Veggie Tales video Esther, the Girl Who Became Queen. “I’m a non-pictured vegetable,” he joked.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Cortes - I hope you are OK with me posting this article here. Especially now, this issue is tied with abortion. Making a religious institution go against one their core beliefs, that is against a cornerstone which is one of the greatest in American policy.

[/quote]

This is your thread, kd, not mine. I only started it as a continuation of the thread you had started. You post anything you want.

The article above this one about ectopic pregnancies and the actual amount of women who actually die from pregnancy related causes was fascinating.

It’s long, but anyone on either side of the aisle needs to take a long, hard look at that.

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:<<< I’ll never say killing someone is good, >>>[/quote]Not something I’d ever WANT to do.[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:<<<but the exception is when it becomes a necessary evil. Necessary evil being defined as if one doesn’t commit the evil, then a greater evil(s) will occur. >>>[/quote]Taking human life, while never to be welcomed with relish and joy, is not always evil. Of course I say, as always, that God is the only one qualified and authorized to define ANYthing, so naturally this would be included.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Basically I don’t think that a right to life exists and I’m asking him to prove it. By asking me to demonstrate that it doesn’t exist is nothing more than a shifting of the burden of proof.[/quote]
Do you believe in objective moral facts?[/quote]

I honestly don’t know if objective morals facts exist.[/quote]

Have you ever bothered to find out? What are others allowed to do to you or your family, where is that line. Rooted in there you will find your objective moral facts.
[/quote]

Jeez, give me a little credit, of course I have.

I’m just unsure.

I define what is “good” and “bad” based on evidence (like the outcome an action has for instance), but I really cannot say that’s a “moral fact.”

[/quote]

Well, I don’t want to lead you. But morality has 5 components:

  • intent
  • action
  • outcome
  • sentience
  • freewill

The intent of an action, what happens as a result of the action from a sentient being to a sentient being and the ability to have been able to choose otherwise.
Morality is indeed a pure, independent metaphysical entity.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Basically I don’t think that a right to life exists and I’m asking him to prove it. By asking me to demonstrate that it doesn’t exist is nothing more than a shifting of the burden of proof.[/quote]
Do you believe in objective moral facts?[/quote]

I honestly don’t know if objective morals facts exist.[/quote]

Have you ever bothered to find out? What are others allowed to do to you or your family, where is that line. Rooted in there you will find your objective moral facts.
[/quote]

Jeez, give me a little credit, of course I have.

I’m just unsure.

I define what is “good” and “bad” based on evidence (like the outcome an action has for instance), but I really cannot say that’s a “moral fact.”

[/quote]

Well, I don’t want to lead you. But morality has 5 components:

  • intent
  • action
  • outcome
  • sentience
  • freewill

The intent of an action, what happens as a result of the action from a sentient being to a sentient being and the ability to have been able to choose otherwise.
Morality is indeed a pure, independent metaphysical entity.

[/quote]

So when the church tells you what specific moral beliefs you should have, do those fall under the “sentience” or “freewill” component?

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
You’re trying to argue that taking a human life is a fine option until a compelling argument can made to not do so? [/quote]

I don’t know that it is stupid.

In the whole of human history, I feel like it has only been recently (couple hundred years maybe) where taking the life of another is some major issue.

I mean, in the “middle ages” weren’t peeps ax’ing each other in the face all the time?

Was the scene in 300 where they contimplate tossing the baby off the cliff accurate of the times?

Not saying our current moral backbone is wrong, but isn’t it a some-what recent development?

Humans don’t really have a great track record of not killing each other throughout history.[/quote]

Other than the fact that I really hated that movie, yes of course I concede the fact the sometimes taking a human life is a morally neutral action. It’s extremely rare if even possible that it is a morally correct option. The instances where it’s ok to take a human life do not apply to abortion except in the case where the mother’s life is in explicit danger. And in those cases, I do not disagree with the abortion. I don’t see it as a choice, especially since the child has a near zero chance of survival anyway.
However, outside of the threat to the mother’s life, there are no other instances where taking that human life is anything other than a morally depraved action equivalent to killing outside the womb.
So long as the life isn’t a threat to you or others, the life has a right to live.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Basically I don’t think that a right to life exists and I’m asking him to prove it. By asking me to demonstrate that it doesn’t exist is nothing more than a shifting of the burden of proof.[/quote]
Do you believe in objective moral facts?[/quote]

I honestly don’t know if objective morals facts exist.[/quote]

Have you ever bothered to find out? What are others allowed to do to you or your family, where is that line. Rooted in there you will find your objective moral facts.
[/quote]

Jeez, give me a little credit, of course I have.

I’m just unsure.

I define what is “good” and “bad” based on evidence (like the outcome an action has for instance), but I really cannot say that’s a “moral fact.”

[/quote]

Well, I don’t want to lead you. But morality has 5 components:

  • intent
  • action
  • outcome
  • sentience
  • freewill

The intent of an action, what happens as a result of the action from a sentient being to a sentient being and the ability to have been able to choose otherwise.
Morality is indeed a pure, independent metaphysical entity.

[/quote]

So when the church tells you what specific moral beliefs you should have, do those fall under the “sentience” or “freewill” component?[/quote]

Why do you bring the church into this? This is not a religious discussion. You don’t have to be religious in anyway to do morally right and morally wrong actions.

Cool to see the movement of the unborn in their natural home.

ABSOLUTE COOLEST VIDEO OF UNBORN TWINS EVER
by John-Henry Westen Wed Jun 20, 2012

Unborn twins captured by MRI image

I doubt the video will load, so just click on the link.

[quote]pat wrote:
You don’t have to be religious in anyway to do morally right and morally wrong actions.[/quote]

I’ll remember you saying this.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
You’re trying to argue that taking a human life is a fine option until a compelling argument can made to not do so? [/quote]

I don’t know that it is stupid.

In the whole of human history, I feel like it has only been recently (couple hundred years maybe) where taking the life of another is some major issue.

I mean, in the “middle ages” weren’t peeps ax’ing each other in the face all the time?

Was the scene in 300 where they contimplate tossing the baby off the cliff accurate of the times?

Not saying our current moral backbone is wrong, but isn’t it a some-what recent development?

Humans don’t really have a great track record of not killing each other throughout history.[/quote]

Other than the fact that I really hated that movie, yes of course I concede the fact the sometimes taking a human life is a morally neutral action. It’s extremely rare if even possible that it is a morally correct option. The instances where it’s ok to take a human life do not apply to abortion except in the case where the mother’s life is in explicit danger. And in those cases, I do not disagree with the abortion. I don’t see it as a choice, especially since the child has a near zero chance of survival anyway.
However, outside of the threat to the mother’s life, there are no other instances where taking that human life is anything other than a morally depraved action equivalent to killing outside the womb.
So long as the life isn’t a threat to you or others, the life has a right to live.
[/quote]

I asked earlier and Counting Beans was the only one to answer. Why would a mothers life being in danger be the exception? If the embryo/fetus is in fact equal to a newborn child what mother would not take the risk to save her child no matter how small the chance may be?

Not to mention that just like many of the pro-lifers say if you do not want to risk having children do not have sex, can not the same be said when the mothers life is in danger? All pregnancies have risk of complications so, if you are not willing to take the risk do not have sex.

[quote]maverick88 wrote:<< I asked earlier and Counting Beans was the only one to answer. Why would a mothers life being in danger be the exception? If the embryo/fetus is in fact equal to a newborn child what mother would not take the risk to save her child no matter how small the chance may be?

Not to mention that just like many of the pro-lifers say if you do not want to risk having children do not have sex, can not the same be said when the mothers life is in danger? All pregnancies have risk of complications so, if you are not willing to take the risk do not have sex.[/quote]I may surprise and be hammered to death by some people for what I am about to say. Also, a genuine occurrence of this circumstance is so astronomically rare as to be pert near irrelevant in the realm of policy making. That said, if there were a situation of the absolutely legitimate probability of the loss of both the mother and child and aborting the child provided an absolutely legitimate probability of saving the mother? I would support that decision. ESPECIALLY if the mother already had small children. In fact if I were the husband and father I would exercise my godly headship through much anguish and sorrow and nonetheless insist upon it. The God who reveals Himself in the Christian scriptures does not will that a man be left without his wife and existing children without their mother if the only choice available is the loss of both or saving the mother. I would commit my baby into His loving arms, weep with my wife and give the extremely reluctant go ahead.

I also would not pronounce judgement on another couple who believed they were led otherwise. Further, there would be so much prayer, fasting and support from my church family that I would not close the door on the possibility of our God making it known that we were to trust him and NOT abort our child. However, in the absence of a clear word to the contrary, my Christian sense, in submission to what I know of the bible would tell me that the preservation of my wife and children’s mother in this most difficult of assignments from the Lord is what I should do. (the possibility of other equally rare circumstances might provide for a different conclusion as well. I know exactly what somebody’s gonna ask and that is a lot more copmplicated) You may fire at will.

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< What are those exceptions?[/quote]When they’ve committed a capital crime, when they’re trying to kill my family not out of persecution for the gospel’s sake and when I’m fighting a righteous war.
[/quote]

And there’s also euthanasia and abortion but we’ll go with your answer since BC might like it better.[/quote]

Better question: How do you determine an “exception?”[/quote]

I’ll never say killing someone is good, but the exception is when it becomes a necessary evil. Necessary evil being defined as if one doesn’t commit the evil, then a greater evil(s) will occur. [/quote]

Does capital punishment fit that description?[/quote]

Nope.
[/quote]

Lemme play devil’s advocate for a moment. To some people, especially those in the most violent of gangs, life in prison doesn’t mean anything to them. Life in prison isn’t enough to make them not murderers. They have connects in the prison systems already and will get their dope, sex, and violence in there. Now having the death penalty will discourage at least some people who would otherwise murder. In this sense, the few who receive capital punishment will be enough deterrent to prevent murders in the future for at least some of them. [/quote]

I don’t disagree with your sentiments, in fact, I was cheering throughout the first few revenge scenes of Law Abiding Citizen.

However, using your criteria, which I agree with, btw, we can see that it would be logically inconsistent to support it:

[quote]
Fletch1986 wrote:

I’ll never say killing someone is good, but the exception is when it becomes a necessary evil. Necessary evil being defined as if one doesn’t commit the evil, then a greater evil(s) will occur. [/quote]

Is what you described really necessary? Well, if someone is an actual clear and present danger to others, there’s a very simple solution to this, and they are already housed in the perfect place to take advantage of it:

Isolation. Permanent isolation, if necessary.

It’s harsh, but again, so is death. The latter is morally and ethically consistent, and should be employed only in cases that prove to be truly incorrigible.

Nota bene: That is not to say that I think killing is always wrong. Not at all. But when it is not absolutely necessary, we must guard against using it as a justification for revenge or other human desires.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You may fire at will. [/quote]

I give you credit for being honest. Thankfully I didn’t, but had I been made to make that choice, I don’t know that I could have let my wife go.

So under what circumstances do you think killing is not evil and why Cortes or anyone?

One may argue that permanent isolation may very well be a worst fate than death itself.

In ancient societies, in cases that proved to be truly incorriible, people were left alone in the wilderness.
Ie : Permanent exclusion.

Sooner or latter, it means death. But in this case, death is not given by the hand of a man.
That is actually morally and ethically consistent. You become an ennemy of society : society doesn’t support you.

Too bad wilderness doesn’t exist anymore.