The Abortion Thread

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Okay, I still ended up writing less than I have to say but this is certainly plenty to chew on for now.

Setting aside for a second my disagreements with euthanasia, the problems I see with your idea of the mother assuming “power of attorney” to grant consent to a mercy killing are:

  1. In the case of an adult, an argument (that I do not want to get into in this thread) could possibly be made for assisted suicide precisely because he does possess a will (or at least he once did) to request his life be ended. A baby has not yet developed to the point that she can make her own choices or even understand the world around her. She has never had the opportunity to give consent one way or the other, which leads me to my next point:

  2. No matter how bad she may believe their situation to be, there is no way she could possibly know that the life awaiting her child is bad enough that her child would be better off not existing to live it. This has all sorts of problems with it.

  • First, she could be wrong. Life may not to be all that bad. She’s already in the state of mind to kill her own child, so she’s won’t likely be noticing the silver lining shimmering at the edges of those clouds. There are many biographies of famous, influential and important people who suffered through the worst of hardships before finally succeeding. Sometimes they succeeded despite those conditions, and often, very often, they succeeded exactly because the pain of those ordeals forced them to look at their world in a different way than they otherwise might have. Oprah Winfrey, as much as you may not personally like the woman, had a childhood so bad it would make a Francis Bacon exhibit look cheery. NO one, looking at her life then, could ever have guessed this girl would use the monstrous abuse she was subjected to to become of the the most powerful, most influential women of all time (who also apparently supports abortion - ahh my head is going to explode).

  • Second, your argument assumes that a shitty life is actually a bad thing, enough so that death itself is preferable. MANY people disagree with this. They are the people who are living in shitty situations who have not killed themselves. The ones that did made their choice after they were allowed to weigh the options. But the child in your case would never have the chance to weigh those options. That might be okay, except that exactly what constitutes “a life not worth living” is a PURELY subjective concept. I just don’t see any way you can justify granting anyone the authority to determine the life or death of anyone based on such a foggy notion of just what constitutes “bad enough.” You couldn’t even create a scale, the situation is so infinitely complex.

  1. Moreover, your envisioned situation actually increases the number of people who would thereby be vulnerable to murder. All manner of people are born without the ability to develop a will of their own, and another entire subset exists in a state where the existence or absence of an independent will could never reliably be determined. If this were to become the case, though, how many mothers or caretakers, frustrated and tired and sick of devoting their lives to the care of their charges, would opt to “abort” them, at now any stage of life, and justify the act using the same defense as the mother who today aborts her own unborn child. That is, she is killing it out of “mercy.”

You and I are both adroit enough to realize that this excuse is almost never really the case. The mother who justifies murdering her child in the wombs is “mercifully” concerned about one person and one person only, herself and how her own life is going to be affected. If that is true in our present case, it most certainly would be true, and indeed an equivalent justification, if not the actual reason, for her choice.

Finally (for now), just as a mother cannot be said to possess the ability to accurately assess future quality of life for her child (she’d have to know literally everything), WE cannot accurately judge the quality of life for her child under her care. That she might not love her child, or neglect him, or abuse him is nothing but conjecture. But this conjecture is very often used as justification for her just going ahead and killing it (huh?).

Your argument of the act as “mercy killing,” exactly this assumption.

We don’t know a thing about that child’s future because there is NO EVIDENCE for future abuse or neglect. The experience may completely change her life, save her, even. She also may exceed our worst expectations and become the shittiest mother on earth. But until she actually commits a real crime against her child, unfortunate as it may be, we can’t do or say one thing about what is. We could as easily convict her for future crimes against her child as we could preemptively abort her baby by force. A scary thought, but not at all fantastic.

They’ve got a word for that kind of world. It’s called “China.”
[/quote]

Yes the baby has not yet developed the ability to give consent, but waiting defeats the purpose of a mercy killing.

Sure, the mom doesn’t know the future, but the same can be said about any major decision made by anyone. All choices are a crapshoot, some just more than others. You can’t spend your life waiting on certainty, and when dealing with someone else’s life it’s better to err on the side of caution.

Then again, that pretty much sums up our entire disagreement; does erring on the side of caution mean carrying the child full term, putting it up for adoption and then letting life decide if it was a good choice, or does it mean aborting the child despite the fact that the child may have led a very lucrative and meaningful life?

I don’t know, and I guess that’s the point I’m trying to make. I don’t know what’s best for everyone, so I can’t justify acting as judge for the world’s problems. The best I can do is support giving people the option to use their best judgement for themselves and let life sort itself out.

Yes, that’s risky, but that’s the whole point of freedom. If the only things keeping our species alive are formalities and static, pre-made answers to the dynamic questions of life, then I contend we aren’t worth keeping around at all.

Most people with locked-in syndrome do not wish to die

Tony Nicklinson is 58 and paralysed from the neck down after suffering a stroke in 2005. He is seeking legal permission for a doctor actively to end his life.

A Channel 4 Dispatches programme tonight,‘Let our dad die’, put Tony’s case with powerful emotion but it did not tell us that most people with locked-in syndrome do not actually think like this man.

No one can help but be sympathetic to Tony Nicklinson but cases like his are extremely rare and hard cases make bad law.

The overwhelming majority of people with severe disability - even with “locked-in syndrome” - do not wish to die but rather want support to live and the longer people have locked-in syndrome then generally the better they learn to cope with it and find meaning, purpose and contentment within the confines of the condition.

“Locked in, but still lost in music: UK’s bravest DJ” tells the story of Bram Harrison, 34, who suffered brain damage two weeks before his 21st birthday after falling head-first off his bicycle. He was left with locked-in syndrome and can move only his eyes and eye lids.

So he communicates with his eyes: looking up means yes, down means no, cross-eyed means don’t know. He chooses letters and words by blinking at them on a screen, which his computer translates into the written and spoken word.

This allows him to easily respond to questions from his small army of committed carers about what he wants and how he feels and also to work as a DJ.

Not surprisingly the playlist for his Eye Life radio show takes weeks to put together but he still does it!

Martin Pistorius is a South African man who ended up paralysed and comatose following a throat infection at the age of 12. His awareness began to improve four years later and by the age of 19 had fully returned.

However it was a further five years before a therapist noticed that he was trying to communicate. The penny eventually dropped that he had been aware of everything going on around him for almost ten years whilst everybody had assumed he was unconscious.

Now, ten years later aged 36, he is married and runs a computer business despite being still in a wheel chair with limited limb movement and using computerised speech.

His autobiography,“Ghost Boy” tells the story.

Nikki Kenward was left disabled after a partial recovery from paralysis caused by Gullain Barre syndrome. Her own inspiring personal story is well worth a read. Now she campaigns telling people about the dangers that changing the law to allow assisted suicide or euthanasia would pose to those with serious disability.

Then there is Graham Miles, the pensioner who told how he beat “locked in syndrome” after suffering a massive stroke.

But perhaps the most famous of all is Jean-Dominique Bauby, the French editor of Elle magazine, who suffered a severe stroke, from which he never recovered, and yet wrote, the autobiographical “Diving Bell and the Butterfly” which was “dictated” letter by letter and has been made into a major feature film.

Most people with locked-in syndrome are happy, according to the biggest survey of people with the condition.

The desire to die is not primarily about physical symptoms but about the particular person and their ability to adapt to living with a profound disability.

Much as we sympathise with Tony Nicklinson, we should not, as RCGP President Iona Heath argued recently, be seeking technical solutions like euthanasia to what is in reality an existential problem.

That would be a very dangerous precedent indeed.

by Peter Saunders Thu Jun 21, 2012

Reprinted from Dr. Saunders’ blog
http://pjsaunders.blogspot.ca/

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
it’s just rhetoric no different than people who push the “right to choose” crap.

Every “being” human or non-human is unique.

[/quote]

It’s just rhetoric? Well one is right and one is wrong. Not really rhetoric.[/quote]

Demonstrate that a “right to life” is an objective fact.[/quote]

Demonstrate it’s not…[/quote]

I don’t have to.

The claim that fetuses have a “right to life” has not met its burden of proof. The person claiming that fetuses do must demonstrate so.

[/quote]

Do humans have a right to live?[/quote]

Right to life is just a human concept, so we are free to grant to whatever we want.[/quote]

So based on this, should we punish murder?[/quote]

We’ve discussed morality at length and I’d rather we kept this discussion on abortion. I’ll answer this quickly:

If we want to live in a society and share resources, we must all agree upon rules in order for society to function properly.

I don’t want to be murdered and I’m sure neither do you. For that reason we outlaw murder and enforce it. It’s really that simple.


^ Sarah Tuttle-Singer

The ‘incredible pain’ that followed years after her ‘Jewish abortion’
by Dave Andrusko Thu Jun 21, 2012

June 21, 2012 (nationalrighttolifenews.org) I had not read or heard about the essay that appeared on the Jewish parenting site Kveller titled, “My Jewish Abortion” when it ran in May. My first exposure was when I ran across an interview the author of that piece, writer Sarah Tuttle-Singer, gave to the NPR program “Tell Me More” that aired this week.

The title of her essay comes from the fact that she is Jewish and when she was a pregnant freshman at Berkeley there were Jewish “philanthropic organizations” (as Tuttle-Singer put it) “that support Jewish women in this situation.”

But what strikes the listener is the universality of what Tuttle-Singer has to say. More about that in a moment.

In a real sense the introduction by host Michel Martin is deeply misleading. There is this false dichotomy: during election season abortion is a “political” issue, while for every woman who undergoes an abortion, “it’s a deeply personal, and often painful, choice.”

The headline is in the same vein: “One Writer Puts A Face To The Abortion Debate.” The implication is that either “politicians” merely trot the abortion issue out as they campaign and/or those who oppose abortion do so because they are unfamiliar with the real “face” of abortion.

What do I mean by the universality of her story? She was 19, in college and away from home, experimenting with the things college freshmen often do, and then “found” herself pregnant. But she was also active in her faith, among other things teaching Hebrew on Sunday and Wednesday.

The essay itself is thoughtful. We learn she is now the mother of two, living in Israel, and, unfortunately, “navigating through a separation.” The interview filled in many important blanks.

For example Tuttle-Singer tells Martin that she went public to encourage other women who’ve aborted to do so and because her public involvement “could lead to greater discourse, and greater understanding, between such opposing camps.”

Then the first of many revealing comments:

"And then I also felt, you know, setting that aside, that I wanted to share. This was something that - well, at the time, it wasn't incredibly painful. It became incredibly painful later on, when I was pregnant with my daughter seven years later. And I had a hard time reconciling a previous decision with the excitement of seeing this tiny blip on an ultrasound monitor and saying wow, that's a baby; that's life."

Tuttle-Singer is not second-guessing her decision, but she is honest enough to admit that when she became pregnant again, there was incredible pain and great difficulty with reconciling what she saw and what she had done.

Another important reason for the essay and the follow-up interview clearly was to reinforce that even “nice Jewish girls” have abortions. And, of course, that applies to “nice” Catholic, Methodist, and Lutheran girls as well - and to the “nice” boys who get them pregnant.

The point for pro-lifers is never to shame women who’ve aborted - whether church and synagogue attenders or a-religious - but to help them (and women contemplating an abortion) to understand that abortion is not a “solution.”

Tuttle-Singer had no money as a freshman, and there was a $250 co-pay to have the abortion. But as important as the outside money (the “scholarship”) was to her was the

"huge relief to know that there were other members of my community who understood that these things happen. And they were there not to judge and not to blame, and not to say anything to make me question the decision I had already made; but to say OK, you're in trouble, we're going to support you, and we're going to make sure that you can be safe and that you can heal."

Again, the question transcends the particulars of her faith. Pro-lifers want such organizations to help a woman out of “her trouble” not by financing the death of her baby but by supporting her decision to carry the baby through an admittedly difficult situation.

Martin asked her, as a member of a minority group, if she felt “in a way, you kind of let down your side.” It had “crossed” her mind, Tuttle-Singer said, that in having an abortion she might be behaving in a way that “doesn’t represent the community as people would like it to be represented.” But the fact that a fund was available consoled her with the thought "I was not the first, nor would I be the last, Jewish girl - nice or otherwise “to be in this kind of situation.”

The interview ends with this exchange:

"MARTIN: Before we let you go, Sarah, I just can’t hope but notice that I still hear a lot of emotion in your voice as we are speaking. And I know we just met, so I could be over-interpreting - and you’re kind of far away. But do you still feel a lot of emotion around this even now, so many years later?

“TUTTLE-SINGER: Sure. It never fully goes away. And while I don’t regret what I chose to do, I regret that I had to choose what I chose. And I really hope that my daughter - I have a daughter and a son - I hope that when my daughter is 19, that she will - that she will protect her body, and not get pregnant unless she really wants to be pregnant because it is a very- it’s an excruciating choice. And it’s one that’s never made lightly, not by any woman.”

It seems clear that the abortion ran head-on into her better instincts and that these many years later she is still wrestling with reconciling “a previous decision [the abortion] with the excitement of seeing this tiny blip on an ultrasound monitor and saying wow, that’s a baby; that’s life.” And that having gone through this “excruciating choice,” she really would not want her own daughter to go through an abortion.

That says a lot, perhaps a lot more than she knows.

Reprinted from nationalrighttolifenews.org
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/the-incredible-pain-that-followed-years-after-her-jewish-abortion

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:<<< Right to life is just a human concept, so we are free to grant to whatever we want.[/quote]Ya jist gotta love this guy. lol! What if I were to decide that yours ended with us meeting?
[/quote]

That decision is an acceptable one for you to make, you know people make that choice all the time. That is why we have laws.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
it’s just rhetoric no different than people who push the “right to choose” crap.

Every “being” human or non-human is unique.

[/quote]

It’s just rhetoric? Well one is right and one is wrong. Not really rhetoric.[/quote]

Demonstrate that a “right to life” is an objective fact.[/quote]

Do I have an obligation to not kill innocent human beings? Or, am I free of such obligations?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
it’s just rhetoric no different than people who push the “right to choose” crap.

Every “being” human or non-human is unique.

[/quote]

It’s just rhetoric? Well one is right and one is wrong. Not really rhetoric.[/quote]

Demonstrate that a “right to life” is an objective fact.[/quote]

Do I have an obligation to not kill innocent human beings? Or, am I free of such obligations?[/quote]

No you aren’t obligated to kill innocent human beings.

Is a pregnant woman obligated to protect her 10 week old fetus in the US? Or is she free of such obligations?

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
it’s just rhetoric no different than people who push the “right to choose” crap.

Every “being” human or non-human is unique.

[/quote]

It’s just rhetoric? Well one is right and one is wrong. Not really rhetoric.[/quote]

Demonstrate that a “right to life” is an objective fact.[/quote]

Do I have an obligation to not kill innocent human beings? Or, am I free of such obligations?[/quote]

No you aren’t obligated to kill innocent human beings.

Is a pregnant woman obligated to protect her 10 week old fetus in the US? Or is she free of such obligations?[/quote]

That’s not the question I asked. I’ll ask again:

Do I have an obligation to not kill innocent human beings? Or, am I free of such obligations?

That doesn’t make any sense. A obligation requires a course of action

Nm I take that back. An obligation can also be an absence of an action.

Yes you are obligated not to kill innocent humans.

Now answer this: is a woman obligated to protect her fetus at 10 weeks?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
it’s just rhetoric no different than people who push the “right to choose” crap.

Every “being” human or non-human is unique.

[/quote]

It’s just rhetoric? Well one is right and one is wrong. Not really rhetoric.[/quote]

Demonstrate that a “right to life” is an objective fact.[/quote]

Do I have an obligation to not kill innocent human beings? Or, am I free of such obligations?[/quote]

No you aren’t obligated to kill innocent human beings.

Is a pregnant woman obligated to protect her 10 week old fetus in the US? Or is she free of such obligations?[/quote]

That’s not the question I asked. I’ll ask again:

Do I have an obligation to not kill innocent human beings? Or, am I free of such obligations?[/quote]

An obligation is an action taken, not killing implies your action at a at a given time is something else instead of killing, reading the bible for example. You could also phrase your question as this.

Do I have an obligation to read the bible?

Yes, you are free of such obligations.

[quote]therajraj wrote:
That doesn’t make any sense. A obligation requires a course of action [/quote]

Yes. And not killing someone is letting them live. :slight_smile:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Nm I take that back. An obligation can also be an absence of an action.

Yes you are obligated not to kill innocent humans.[/quote]

And because a fetus is an innocent human being, thus we have come to the conclusion that a fetus has a right to life.

Yes.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
it’s just rhetoric no different than people who push the “right to choose” crap.

Every “being” human or non-human is unique.

[/quote]

It’s just rhetoric? Well one is right and one is wrong. Not really rhetoric.[/quote]

Demonstrate that a “right to life” is an objective fact.[/quote]

Do I have an obligation to not kill innocent human beings? Or, am I free of such obligations?[/quote]

No you aren’t obligated to kill innocent human beings.

Is a pregnant woman obligated to protect her 10 week old fetus in the US? Or is she free of such obligations?[/quote]

That’s not the question I asked. I’ll ask again:

Do I have an obligation to not kill innocent human beings? Or, am I free of such obligations?[/quote]

An obligation is an action taken, not killing implies your action at a at a given time is something else instead of killing, reading the bible for example. You could also phrase your question as this.

Do I have an obligation to read the bible?

Yes, you are free of such obligations.[/quote]

There are plenty of moral obligations that are formed in the manner of “thou shalt not.” I’m not sure where this one sided understanding of obligation comes from. Thou shalt not commit adultery is an obligation as much as thou shalt honor thy father and mother.

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
it’s just rhetoric no different than people who push the “right to choose” crap.

Every “being” human or non-human is unique.

[/quote]

It’s just rhetoric? Well one is right and one is wrong. Not really rhetoric.[/quote]

Demonstrate that a “right to life” is an objective fact.[/quote]

Demonstrate it’s not…[/quote]

I’m afraid that’s not how it works. Lack of counter evidence is not evidense for your position. In this case, lack of a counter argument is not an argument for your position, especially if you’ve given no argument to counter.

Even if he can’t initially demonstrate that a right to life is not objective, it would only, at best, prove that “a right to life”'s objectivity is a possibility, not that it is so. That’s your job.[/quote]

If people outside the womb, have a right to live then so does the in utero human, because both are living human organisms.

You don’t understand burden of proof, by asking this question you are tacitly implying that you have a right to kill. What give you the right to kill?[/quote]

And you don’t understand how commas work.

What if I question a birthed human’s innate right to life as well? From where do you draw a fetus’ right to life then?

Killing is not the only way a person can die and not having the right is not the same as not being “allowed” or being illegal, so no, this isn’t a shift in burden of proof. All points are neutral until proven otherwise. If you refuse to logically prove that human’s have a right to life, then the best you can do is keep the point neutral.

For the record, I don’t think the right to kill is a universal truth either. Now, if I don’t have the right to kill and you don’t have the right to life, then me killing you isn’t a matter of rights at all. The point remains neutral. [/quote]

If your talking about right to life, you’re talking about a human taking another human’s life. That’s the only case in which a ‘right’ applies. Are you seriously trying to argue that not killing another person needs to be justified to you? You’re trying to argue that taking a human life is a fine option until a compelling argument can made to not do so? The idea is almost to stupid to give even slight credence to. Why don’t you exercise you’re right to terminate a human life? Then you’ll have lots of time to think about why it’s wrong to take a life.
What it does tell me, that you admit the fetal human is a human life. You just think it’s ok to take it. That’s fine, at least you admit what it is.
If this is the tortured reasoning that you have to resort to, to justify abortion, then their is no justification for it.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

And because a fetus is an innocent human being, thus we have come to the conclusion that a fetus has a right to life.
[/quote]

The law doesn’t see a fetus as a human being as I pointed out earlier. Rights must be granted, so no a fetus doesn’t have a right to life.

Read the law I posted earlier.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Basically I don’t think that a right to life exists and I’m asking him to prove it. By asking me to demonstrate that it doesn’t exist is nothing more than a shifting of the burden of proof.[/quote]
Do you believe in objective moral facts?[/quote]

I honestly don’t know if objective morals facts exist.[/quote]

Have you ever bothered to find out? What are others allowed to do to you or your family, where is that line. Rooted in there you will find your objective moral facts.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Basically I don’t think that a right to life exists and I’m asking him to prove it. By asking me to demonstrate that it doesn’t exist is nothing more than a shifting of the burden of proof.[/quote]
Do you believe in objective moral facts?[/quote]

I honestly don’t know if objective morals facts exist.[/quote]

Have you ever bothered to find out? What are others allowed to do to you or your family, where is that line. Rooted in there you will find your objective moral facts.
[/quote]

Jeez, give me a little credit, of course I have.

I’m just unsure.

I define what is “good” and “bad” based on evidence (like the outcome an action has for instance), but I really cannot say that’s a “moral fact.”

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
it’s just rhetoric no different than people who push the “right to choose” crap.

Every “being” human or non-human is unique.

[/quote]

It’s just rhetoric? Well one is right and one is wrong. Not really rhetoric.[/quote]

Demonstrate that a “right to life” is an objective fact.[/quote]

Do I have an obligation to not kill innocent human beings? Or, am I free of such obligations?[/quote]

No you aren’t obligated to kill innocent human beings.

Is a pregnant woman obligated to protect her 10 week old fetus in the US? Or is she free of such obligations?[/quote]

That’s not the question I asked. I’ll ask again:

Do I have an obligation to not kill innocent human beings? Or, am I free of such obligations?[/quote]

An obligation is an action taken, not killing implies your action at a at a given time is something else instead of killing, reading the bible for example. You could also phrase your question as this.

Do I have an obligation to read the bible?

Yes, you are free of such obligations.[/quote]

There are plenty of moral obligations that are formed in the manner of “thou shalt not.” I’m not sure where this one sided understanding of obligation comes from. Thou shalt not commit adultery is an obligation as much as thou shalt honor thy father and mother. [/quote]

Okay fine.

Do I have an obligation to not kill innocent human beings?

In most cases yes but like everything there are exceptions.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

And because a fetus is an innocent human being, thus we have come to the conclusion that a fetus has a right to life.
[/quote]

The law doesn’t see a fetus as a human being as I pointed out earlier. Rights must be granted, so no a fetus doesn’t have a right to life.

Read the law I posted earlier.

[/quote]
Rights granted I assume from government? But what is government? If Hitler won World War II and took over the world and said colored,etc… are not human beings would he be right?
Edited:
If he is not right, then rights are not granted from government. What about science that does say fetuses are human in contrast to the law; which one is right?