The Abortion Thread

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
381

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:

This abortion story came to Abort73 through our online submission form and was received from Ohio on June 9, 2012.[/b]
I had an abortion just 3 days ago, on Wednesday, at 16-weeks. I am 20-years-old and have been with my on-again-off-again boyfriend for a little over 4 years. With that being said, during the month you were conceived, I slept with someone else, while I was on a break from my boyfriend.
I completely missed my period, and while I was at work, I took a pregnancy test. I had all kinds of feelings, but I was confused. I wasn’t sure if I should be excited or mad or happy or angry. Over the course of 4 months, I treated you like any mother should. I fell asleep with my hands on my stomach every night. Eating healthy, working out, all to make sure that my little bean was on the right track to being healthy. As weeks passed by, I tried to weigh out my options with what would happen, depending on who your dad was. As weeks passed by, things got a little harder. I had moved out of my parents and was living with my boyfriend. I tried to get a paternity test for you, but I couldn’t afford it. Things went from bad to worse, quickly. Last Saturday, my boyfriend drug me out of my car and after we got inside started hitting us, and I decided I had had enough. I didn’t want this lifestyle for you, for us. But that was just an excuse to do something that I thought I had wanted to do.
The first day I went to the clinic I had to talk to a counselor to make sure that this was what I really wanted. But I couldn’t stop crying long enough to explain to her how I really felt. On my day-two appointment, I was nervous and scared. Because I was so far along, I had to vaginally insert pills inside of me to start the process. Upon receiving the pills I went into the bathroom and held my stomach one last time and told you that I was so sorry and cried and cried… and cried. But I knew if I just shoved them inside of me I would have to go through with it, even if I changed my mind.
The four-hour wait for the medicine to get in my system was the worst four hours of my life. I couldn’t believe what I had done, I kept holding onto my stomach, wondering what was happening to you inside of me. Knowing that I was sitting there murdering my own baby, my own child, my own blood. After the four hours, the nurse called my name to start the procedure. I laid on the chair and the nurse kept pushing my hair back and telling me that everything was going to be okay. With my pants off I laid there apologizing to you over and over again. The medicine began to give me severe cramps and contractions. I was screaming and turning and twisting and I just wanted my mom or my dad to be in there holding me, helping me. I was digging my nails into the chair and started shaking and sweating really bad. I jumped out of my bed and ran down the hall to the bathroom with my IV in my arm.
My nurse came into the bathroom and I was screaming at her, demanding that she got out and gave me some privacy. It was at that very moment that I knew I didn’t want to finish the procedure. I wanted you, I wanted to take away all of the pain you were feeling. While in the bathroom as I was pushing to pee, something fell out of me and water went all over my thighs and was dripping down my legs. I began screaming and three nurses came into the bathroom to drag me back to my room while explaining to me that my water had just broke.
They held me down on the table and put an oxygen mask around my face. I was shaking so bad and by then was drenched in sweat. My head was shaking so bad, and I was kicking my legs. I saw the doctor walk into the room and she went to shake my hand and I just kept telling her, please don’t hurt me, please don’t hurt me. The last thing I remember is one of the nurses telling me that she was going to begin my sedation.
After what seemed a short while I woke up with no pants on, feeling embarrassed. I put my pants back on and sat down in the wheel chair. I was moved to a recovery room where I was left to think about what had just happened to us.
I am so sorry I chose to be so selfish. And I know that I will never get you back. I didn’t even give you a chance, to grow, or to become someone. I turned my back on someone that loved me. Someone that honestly needed me, for just five more months. I puked on the drive home from being so sick to my stomach from what I had just done. I think about you all the time. I wonder what you looked like, what your nose looked like, if you would have been my first boy or girl. I made the biggest mistake of my life. Something I will never choose to endure again. I hope that one day I get to meet you and explain to you why I made the selfish choice I made. I hope that you forgive me. I love you and you will always be my first child. I hope you hold part of me wherever you are and know that I wasn’t thinking right and I would do anything to have you back. I wish that I could hold you and kiss you. My mom gave me the gift of life, and I took that from you, and here I am, laying in my boyfriend’s bed crying about something that never was supposed to happen. I should have moved out, I should have told the nurse no when she asked me if I was sure I wanted to do this today, I should have listened to my heart and I should have been the best mom in the world for you. I just want you back.
I want to be your Mom now, when it’s too late.
I Love You.
I feel so empty inside.
Age: 20
Location: Ohio
Date: June 9, 2012

[/quote]

I could hardly finish reading this it is so sad.

Did you read this, raj? This is just anecdotal evidence, though, right? And if her story isn’t a complete lie, her reaction is nothing more than religio-cultural programming, right?

What a terrible act abortion is.

382

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
This is “The Abortion Thread” and this question is about abortion. To all the pro life people here. Of which I am most unwaveringly one myself. What if there were 100% scientific consensus that every pro death argument had been verified in their studies. 100%. The pro abortion folks are right.

ALL the science has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that every last argument put forth by the abortionists is correct. Now what? Don’t go coppin out on me with something like “well that would never happen”? It HAS. What do you say?[/quote]

If you mean that the fetus doesn’t feel pain or is not at all aware of itself and all that?

It still wouldn’t change the fact that a fetus that is left untouched pops out as a baby when nine months are though.

383

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
This is “The Abortion Thread” and this question is about abortion. To all the pro life people here. Of which I am most unwaveringly one myself. What if there were 100% scientific consensus that every pro death argument had been verified in their studies. 100%. The pro abortion folks are right.

ALL the science has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that every last argument put forth by the abortionists is correct. Now what? Don’t go coppin out on me with something like “well that would never happen”? It HAS. What do you say?[/quote]

I know what you are getting at here, T, but I honestly don’t feel like it’s possible to answer this question. How on earth could the science ever show that an unborn human child was anything other than human?

I mean, if the unborn child really wasn’t a human, then there’s really no harm in killing it. Biblically speaking, abortionists would be about as morally depraved as plastic surgeons.

I KNOW this isn’t the answer you are trying to get, but if you want that answer you are going to have to frame the question better. And if I am misreading your intentions here, please forgive my assumptions I make that lead to what I have to say here:

The reason that many of us use the science angle to take on our non-Christian opponents is because they WILL NOT LISTEN to us or take us the slightest bit seriously if we come at them quoting scripture, bibles athump. Since it can, easily, be demonstrated that the act of abortion itself is indefensible, even by secular ethical standards, and because these people do vote, do disseminate and perpetuate such nefarious and insidious memes as “a woman’s choice,” “the right to privacy,” “clump of cells,” and on and on, it is my duty to curtail this pernicious force in the most efficient way possible.

I’m not happy about it, but realistically speaking, the strategy of quoting scripture to atheists is as effective as sufiandy’s arguments are at moving us over to where ever he is. I DON’T, but you know very well they DO view arguments from scripture as the equivalent of the ravings of the grizzly guy on the street corner missing half his teeth, naked under a sloppily hand-painted sandwich board with THE END IS NEAR scrawled across it.

I want abortions to stop as quickly as possible. At Mass, at home, at Adoration, and other such places we pray. Catholics do a LOT of praying for an end to abortion and for the souls of the unborn as well as those of mother’s who’ve aborted their children and the abortionists who perform those heinous acts.

Here, I act in the way that is most likely to result in those prayers being answered. Hence, I bring science, because that’s what they listen to, and they vote.

And note well, all of the pro-abortion posters and readers would love nothing more than for this thread to devolve into Christian infighting about who’s doing it right. You know your question isn’t reaaaally about abortion. It’s about faith vs. works, perceived lack of faith, possibly even in-fidelity, is it not?

That’s all fine, and there are a lot of points to be made on those subjects. But they are not what this thread is about, and I would appreciate it if we could discuss those things elsewhere.

384

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

The question is the preventable trauma and guilt associated with abortion, not how hard it jiggles the coo-coo clock.[/quote]

I’m not sure why you’d classify an abortion a traumatic event in the first place.

Again, most women do not share your perspective on abortion.[/quote]

The article you provided, wrote about it as a given…

385

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Women are very emotional, why don’t we take some time to discuss other things that could cause women unnecessary trauma and guilt. We should then try to make those things illegal for women only, they will thank us later.[/quote]

Emotions have nothing to do with whether some thing is a human life or not. This discussion goes back to the notion of the woman being ‘the second victim’ in abortion. The fact that the action is a trauma for the mother is the reason behind the sentiment.

How the woman feels about it, though, is technically irrelevant. The only thing that matters is if the life you are willfully taking is a human life and is it ok to take a human life at certain points. Everything else is second.

386

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
This is “The Abortion Thread” and this question is about abortion. To all the pro life people here. Of which I am most unwaveringly one myself. What if there were 100% scientific consensus that every pro death argument had been verified in their studies. 100%. The pro abortion folks are right.

ALL the science has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that every last argument put forth by the abortionists is correct. Now what? Don’t go coppin out on me with something like “well that would never happen”? It HAS. What do you say?[/quote]

Interesting post.

To address a couple of points from the last few pages:

I have probably spoken to way more women about their abortion experiences than any of you. Women my age (almost 47) are pretty forthcoming. And not ONE has ever expressed regret for her decision.

The comment that women suffer more mental angst post-abortion than post-rape is extremely offensive to me. Have any of you ever been raped by a man? I didn’t think so. I’d like to see the evidence on that claim.

This argument reaches an impasse pretty quickly when the pro-choice camp says that it doesn’t believe a parasitic form of life without the ability to meaningfully cogitate or feel pain is entitled to the same rights as an independently functioning human being.

Thank you to all of the men who support a women’s choice and have expressed that here. As I’ve said, I never had an abortion nor ever will, but I appreciate that women in the US have options and that those options are available to all.

387

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Women are very emotional, why don’t we take some time to discuss other things that could cause women unnecessary trauma and guilt. We should then try to make those things illegal for women only, they will thank us later.[/quote]

Emotions have nothing to do with whether some thing is a human life or not. This discussion goes back to the notion of the woman being ‘the second victim’ in abortion. The fact that the action is a trauma for the mother is the reason behind the sentiment.

How the woman feels about it, though, is technically irrelevant. The only thing that matters is if the life you are willfully taking is a human life and is it ok to take a human life at certain points. Everything else is second.[/quote]

Being that a 3rd party is involved only because women don’t have knowledge to perform the procedure on themselves, if they were able to do it without a 3rd party what should the punishment be if abortion was illegal? By your statement above you indicated there would just be 2 victims and no one who committed a crime, so whats the need for a law in the first place?

388

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
The comment that women suffer more mental angst post-abortion than post-rape is extremely offensive to me. Have any of you ever been raped by a man? I didn’t think so. I’d like to see the evidence on that claim.
[/quote]

Was someone really dumb enough to say that? If so I must have missed it.

389

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
This is “The Abortion Thread” and this question is about abortion. To all the pro life people here. Of which I am most unwaveringly one myself. What if there were 100% scientific consensus that every pro death argument had been verified in their studies. 100%. The pro abortion folks are right.

ALL the science has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that every last argument put forth by the abortionists is correct. Now what? Don’t go coppin out on me with something like “well that would never happen”? It HAS. What do you say?[/quote]

Interesting post.

To address a couple of points from the last few pages:

I have probably spoken to way more women about their abortion experiences than any of you. Women my age (almost 47) are pretty forthcoming. And not ONE has ever expressed regret for her decision.

The comment that women suffer more mental angst post-abortion than post-rape is extremely offensive to me. Have any of you ever been raped by a man? I didn’t think so. I’d like to see the evidence on that claim.

This argument reaches an impasse pretty quickly when the pro-choice camp says that it doesn’t believe a parasitic form of life without the ability to meaningfully cogitate or feel pain is entitled to the same rights as an independently functioning human being.

Thank you to all of the men who support a women’s choice and have expressed that here. As I’ve said, I never had an abortion nor ever will, but I appreciate that women in the US have options and that those options are available to all.[/quote]

Why wouldn’t you?

390

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Women are very emotional, why don’t we take some time to discuss other things that could cause women unnecessary trauma and guilt. We should then try to make those things illegal for women only, they will thank us later.[/quote]

Emotions have nothing to do with whether some thing is a human life or not. This discussion goes back to the notion of the woman being ‘the second victim’ in abortion. The fact that the action is a trauma for the mother is the reason behind the sentiment.

How the woman feels about it, though, is technically irrelevant. The only thing that matters is if the life you are willfully taking is a human life and is it ok to take a human life at certain points. Everything else is second.[/quote]

Being that a 3rd party is involved only because women don’t have knowledge to perform the procedure on themselves, if they were able to do it without a 3rd party what should the punishment be if abortion was illegal? By your statement above you indicated there would just be 2 victims and no one who committed a crime, so whats the need for a law in the first place?[/quote]

That’s a total strawman…First and for most, it’s either a human life, or it’s not. I say to take an innocent human life is wrong. You guys say it’s ok to take a human life so long as that life doesn’t meet certain criteria. Hence, the human life is devalued because being a human life is not a sufficient reason alone to allow it to live.

391

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
The comment that women suffer more mental angst post-abortion than post-rape is extremely offensive to me. Have any of you ever been raped by a man? I didn’t think so. I’d like to see the evidence on that claim.
[/quote]

Was someone really dumb enough to say that? If so I must have missed it.[/quote]

Nobody. It’s what happens when you jump in to the middle of a conversation.

I personally haven’t met a woman who has had an abortion and doesn’t regret it.

392

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Most women are pro-choice > Pro-choice people do not consider a “clump of cells” a person and therefore not murder > If this is their opinion, why on earth would they suffer from mental health issues post abortion?[/quote]

Get back to me when every woman who is pro-choice has personally had her own abortion. Come on, man, if you are going to make little psychoanalytical implications about me, don’t throw up this kind of silliness afterward. [/quote]

How am I making psychoanalytical implications about you? Didn’t you say you consider abortion is murder? I’m not following here.

All I’m trying to get at here is that I disagree it’s common sense to say women will suffer mental problems from having abortions.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

I am arguing that, actually.

I personally know women, who I am almost 100% positive were not lying to me, who were deeply mentally scarred by their abortions. This is inarguable. I personally don’t give a shit if it’s only 5% of women, though I’m sure it’s not. That would still be close to 50,000 women in America alone. [/quote]

I’m sure it happens, but I don’t think you can pick out abortion especially when compared to giving birth. People suffer from PTSD, stress, anger, depression after surgery as a whole. Abortion hasn’t shown to be any different.

Had these women in your life gone forward with the pregnancy, the probability of them suffering mental issues would have been the same if not more.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

I already explained why that may be. And since, as I suspected, you still have nothing more than an abstract you googled, your opinion is no better than mine. You have now wandered into that very land you claim never to set foot in, the realm of pure conjecture. Watch:[/quote]

No, I have this bad habit of relying on experts in fields I have not studied personally. You saw the conclusion by the APA I posted earlier right?

Now here’s one from the National Collaborating Centre for Mental Health (NCCMH):

“Abortion does not raise the risk of a woman suffering mental health problems, a major review by experts concludes. Data from 44 studies showed women with an unwanted pregnancy have a higher incidence of mental health problems in general. This is not affected by whether or not they have an abortion or give birth.”

Prof Tim Kendall: “For women who are considering an abortion, mental health is probably not an important consideration”

Or what about a former surgeon general?

"This time he told President Reagan in a letter Monday that, after extensive study, he could not conclude one way or another that abortions were harmful to women.

Dr. Koop cited reports that after an abortion women were sometimes infertile, suffered a damaged cervix or subsequently had a miscarriage, gave premature birth or gave birth to underweight babies. But he said that when those problems arose, it was often difficult to attribute them to an abortion.

Similarly, he noted that although 250 scientific studies dealing with the psychological aspects of abortion, ‘‘The data do not support the premise that abortion does nor does not cause or contribute to psychological problems.’’ ‘A Bewildering Nightmare’ "

Or how about a review of 21 high quality studies involving 150,000 women?

A team at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore reviewed 21 studies involving more than 150,000 women and found the high-quality studies showed no significant differences in long-term mental health between women who choose to abort a pregnancy and others.

“The best research does not support the existence of a ‘post-abortion syndrome’ similar to post-traumatic stress disorder,” Dr. Robert Blum, who led the study published in the journal Contraception, said in a statement.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/12/04/us-abortion-depression-idUSTRE4B30UE20081204

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Of course it makes perfect sense to you, because you are now doing exactly what you took me to task for earlier, making guesses without any sort of proof whatsoever. [/quote]

Do you consider the findings of medical professionals and experts as evidence? I pointed out the conclusions of multiple organizations and the fact that no medical or psychological organization recognizes post-abortion syndrome and you basically wrote it off.

If not, What exactly would work as proof to you?

[quote]Cortes wrote:
To compare the act of eating beef to the act of having your child ripped apart and sucked from your womb would probably offend the hell out of more than a few people for its presumptuousness. [/quote]

Yeah people with unwavering support for the pro-life movement, sure. To the pro-choicer hell no (wasn’t that “clump of cells” referred to as a parasite in this very thread?)

[quote]Cortes wrote:

You have presented an abstract, nothing more, from a study which may or may not be a piece of glorified toilet paper, and then proceeded to offer a bunch of assumed explanations for why what you say is true.

In other words, you got about as much as I do. Hell, at least I have talked to real human beings about this. [/quote]

You’re right, all these studies are bunk, these professional organizations are wrong and your personal experience overrules them all.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

See my last quote above one more time. I don’t really feel like traveling down this farm road any further. If you are suggesting that NO WOMEN are MENTALLY DAMAGED from abortions and the pain and guilt of killing what in all likelihood would have grown to be a son or daughter in their own family, I will call you an absolute imbecile who has clearly never had a child or experienced what happens during pregnancy.

If you just want to continue to nit-pick, then find someone else to do it to.
[/quote]

I already explained above.

393

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Recent science

'04 http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/content/66/5/795.full - this dealt with miscarriage and abortion

'05 http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource.php?n=403

'11 http://afterabortion.org/2011/abortion-risks-a-list-of-major-psychological-complications-related-to-abortion/ “Since many post-aborted women use repression as a coping mechanism, there may be a long period of denial before a woman seeks psychiatric care.”

Privacy laws make the data hard to find, but I still found some science.

[quote]countingbeans wrote: pAGE 9.

I don’t care what data any of you use, you are the one moving the goal posts in the span of 3 posts.

16 year old data was fine, then you used the “it’s over two decaded old” in a weak attempt to refute Raj’s data.

All I ask is there is an agreed upon acceptable time frame, from both sides.[/quote]
[/quote]

Good stuff, kd, thanks for collecting these. Browsing them now.
[/quote]

Of course you’d like these links. One of them is from a catholic website and another is from a pro-life site. Only one of the 3 looks valid.

But studies that disagree with what you believe “may or may not be a piece of glorified toilet paper.”

394

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
most rape victims have spoken on how it took them longer to deal with the abortion than to heal from the rape itself.
[/quote]
This.

395

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

The question is the preventable trauma and guilt associated with abortion, not how hard it jiggles the coo-coo clock.[/quote]

I’m not sure why you’d classify an abortion a traumatic event in the first place.

Again, most women do not share your perspective on abortion.[/quote]

The article you provided, wrote about it as a given…[/quote]

If you read about the findings on abortion and mental health as a whole, you’ll see that it’s incorrect to label it as a traumatic event.

396

A blatant lie.

397

I was assaulted by a man when I was 27. It took me a long time to get over that fear that walked with me every step. I couldn’t grocery shop (or go anywhere) for quite some time unless I could park right in front of my destination. I carried a huge bottle of mace with me everywhere I went for a number of years.

I don’t know one woman who had an abortion (and I know plenty) who had any angst rivaling that.

I say I would never have an abortion, Pat, because the reason to do so never presented itself in my life. If it had, I would certainly have explored the option.

I’m done in this thread.

398

[quote]Cortes wrote:

I could hardly finish reading this it is so sad.

Did you read this, raj? This is just anecdotal evidence, though, right? And if her story isn’t a complete lie, her reaction is nothing more than religio-cultural programming, right?

What a terrible act abortion is. [/quote]

Yes anecdotal evidence and appeal to emotion fallacy.

I’m sure I could find a hair-transplant horror story and you can conclude that hair-transplants are also terrible acts.

399

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
most rape victims have spoken on how it took them longer to deal with the abortion than to heal from the rape itself.
[/quote]
This.[/quote]

Oh I don’t think he gets much real life interaction with women so don’t take that comment too seriously.

400

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Women are very emotional, why don’t we take some time to discuss other things that could cause women unnecessary trauma and guilt. We should then try to make those things illegal for women only, they will thank us later.[/quote]

Emotions have nothing to do with whether some thing is a human life or not. This discussion goes back to the notion of the woman being ‘the second victim’ in abortion. The fact that the action is a trauma for the mother is the reason behind the sentiment.

How the woman feels about it, though, is technically irrelevant. The only thing that matters is if the life you are willfully taking is a human life and is it ok to take a human life at certain points. Everything else is second.[/quote]

Being that a 3rd party is involved only because women don’t have knowledge to perform the procedure on themselves, if they were able to do it without a 3rd party what should the punishment be if abortion was illegal? By your statement above you indicated there would just be 2 victims and no one who committed a crime, so whats the need for a law in the first place?[/quote]

That’s a total strawman…First and for most, it’s either a human life, or it’s not. I say to take an innocent human life is wrong. You guys say it’s ok to take a human life so long as that life doesn’t meet certain criteria. Hence, the human life is devalued because being a human life is not a sufficient reason alone to allow it to live. [/quote]

So what do you think the prison sentence should be for a women who has an abortion? If it was to be made illegal this would have to be answered.