The Abortion Thread II

[KneeDragger_79]

If birth-control stopped the release of eggs and she was using the artificial hormones for a long time she would enter menopause much later than a woman who was never on birth-control. Does that help clarify my point, I hope so?

@planetcybertron

What?

Again I’ll say it because it’s true; ALL birth-control is abortifacient minus the barriers, every single one.

@planetcybertron

And I didn’t say that it applies to all contraceptives. I was giving a few reasons why they could fail. Concerning the ones taken orally.

Almost all birth-control will make a woman gain weight because the hormones are simulating the hormones of pregnancy; when women naturally gain weight.

@planetcybertron

You’d be surprised. There’s plenty of women who will refuse oral contraceptives if they suspect it will make them gain weight.

Any other reasons that are legit?

@planetcybertron

And It would be fair if you didn’t hypothetically sum up a female’s line of thought so simplistically because issues like these are filled to the brim with grey area. I listed weight gain as a reason because it’s a valid reason.

The only thing I have done is answer your “reason,” nothing more.

[quote=“planetcybertron, post:91, topic:214572”]And I wouldn’t dare sum up someone’s reason to engage in intercourse, while also dismissing their own concern for how they look. So when you say stuff like this:

I’m going to think girls are less emotional than “I feel fat so I don’t want to take my oral contraceptive, but I will go sleep with that guy down the block because he smiled at me.” Sorry man, I give women more credit than that.[/quote]

Jajaja, I know girls care about how they look. I’m married with daughters of my own. You are ignoring the fact that sex does **** equal beauty. If they think that way, that doesn’t allow them to freedom to do whatever they want with the baby they helped to create.

[quote=“planetcybertron, post:91, topic:214572”]You’re ignoring the very real aspect of MILLIONS of young girls who are very concerned with the way they look. So much so, that they are willing to pass up taking a birth control alternative, if it means them not gaining weight. And you can “give women more credit than that” by realizing that aspect if VERY real for people.

Find me one artificial drug that doesn’t have a warning attached to the package.

@planetcybertron

It’s about as rare enough for there to be a need for a side effect disclaimer at he end of various birth control commercials.

In other words you have nothing?

@planetcybertron

Why do I even have to do that? Why do you even need that? I can’t provide a large sample number because I wasn’t giving that reason under the premise that something like that happens on a large scale. I gave it as a reason because it can be a reason however small or large of a reason. Does a “sample number” add any more weight to the fact that this can happen to individuals?

So again you have nothing? One single person would work that had these side effects with the science to back it up.

Other than prostaglandin, don’t forget about estrogen. Those two hormone levels must be at the proper levels to allow pregnancy to occur; all birth-control simulates pregnancy. Testosterone must be nearly absent but still produced.

@planetcybertron

But things like inflammation and digestion issues can be reasons for birth control failure. And when I say that, I’m using that in conjunction with hormonal issues, since food choices, and how much of their contents that can be absorbed do have hormonal effects. Or things concerning prostaglandin production, or issues concerning that can have an impact as well.

Life has consequences. If I want to eat an elk steak for diner, I go hunting and as a natural consequence I can have the meat after I shoot one. If I help teach my kids how to read and study so they are intelligent adults then I work with them as they grow-up. As a consequence they can have lots of options as an adult because they are intelligent. If a couple has sex, the natural consequence is that life can be created. If a couple doesn’t want a child, don’t have sex. My wife and I have four kids and there have been many days were we didn’t have sex to naturally space our kids. Sure I “wanted” to have sex with my wife but we made a choice to abstain.

@planetcybertron

It’s not that complicated. And my own personal beliefs are on par with what you said, but that DOES NOT give you, neither I, the right to say “then don’t have sex.” It’s not about how complicated stuff is. It’s about realizing that we’re all human, and we are going to do things that have outcomes. Sex has an outcome of a child. Yes. Obviously. So in response to that, birth control has been created and manufactured. But what good is it to judge that?

Who says oral contraceptives HAVE to be taken? You are arguing like there is no other option. If a couple doesn’t want any kids; don’t partake in an action known to create life or there are natural consequences.

@planetcybertron

Yes. For the Depo Shot. What are you trying to get at by saying that? That I’m saying consistency is a reason for the Depo shot not being effective? That’s not what I was saying, and I was using consistency as a reason for the oral contraceptives.

It should scare the shit out of you to know the numbers. The death chambers or obituaries or clinics are all about killing the babies not wanted by their mothers.

Just recently, for nearly two years I was at a Mixed Martial Arts gym taking muay thai and jiu-jitsu where every single day I would wear various pro-LIFE t-shirts. There was one lady who worked there and one other lady on the mats training with us. The one on the mats went to one of the owners and said I was intimidating to her; now I’m six-and-a-half feet tall with one functional arm but she is just shy of six feet tall and she has her pro card. So intimidation shouldn’t be an issue and even if it was, say something to me. Nope, she went to an owner and told him that she didn’t like my shirts and after he said that I couldn’t be kicked out for that she lied and said I was intimidating. But it’s all about what she wanted. She herself had two abortions because a baby would get in the way with her goals for MMA.

There are two victims with every single abortion, the baby and the mother. The reason your friend and nearly every woman that has an abortion find the destruction of life so hard is for just that reason. Her own babies life is killed. The ladies are often convinced by others that the baby is better off dead and that just tears any mother up. It breaks my heart to learn of the ladies who have had them. Even cousins from both sides of my family have had abortions and they will never forget the choice they made when they had their baby slaughtered. Of course that is terrible and I wish it had never happened.

@planetcybertron

I don’t care to know. I don’t care to what someone’s reason was. I’m under the assumption you aren’t aware that I’m a woman. And these “death chambers” are clinics. And again, I’m not even going to try to paint a picture of what a woman could possibly be thinking while she finds herself in such a place. I don’t ask. And I didn’t ask when I found myself accompanying a friend to such a clinic a while back. I just hugged her, and hugged her some more, and kept hugging her, instead of bringing up the fact that her birth control option didn’t fucking work.

edit - I swear I know how to close the quote function, really I do.

[KneeDragger_79]

*H we agree!! If a couple doesn’t want to have a child, they shouldn’t have sex. Or do you want the exception to be with sex? *

One of the topics I speak-up on is murder, I don’t think people should murder other people. The only exceptions are if you break into my house trying to steal my shit that obviously isn’t yours or if say another country was slaughtering innocent people.

@H_factor

I love these type of arguments because the stupidity is mind boggling. Why is obesity an issue? It isn’t complicated only eat good foods. Why does divorce happen? It isn’t complicated love your spouse. Why does war happen? It isn’t complicated treat other people well. Why do people break the law? It isn’t complicated don’t break it.

It’s such a simplistic worthless view. It’s like do you want to talk about issues that stem from how humans behave and how to solve them or do we just want to say “well people shouldn’t be doing that”

[mnben87]

@KneeDragger_79

I am a bit disappointed you haven’t responded to me. I am bumping this for you to see.

@mnben87

Easy. I support the science that is unequivocal; the unborn are 1) whole 2) complete 3) human 4) living 5) beings.

Of course if science were to show the unborn as something other than each of the individual five traits I listed, not only would I change my mind but the entire pro-LIFE stance crumbles.

Evidence exists that the unborn can do things that exclude them from being individual beings. For example, a single fertilized egg can split into two.

Pretty sure this happens when identical twins are formed. The embryos never lose their humanity. 46 chromosomes throughout the whole event, always completely human.

No, this is not how it works. One fertilized egg with 23 chromosomes, splits into two fertilized eggs with 46 chromosomes.

Additionally, I am not arguing that this isn’t human in origin. I was making a point against your 5th point, which was that they are individual beings.

Do you concede that being two things is not a trait of an individual being? If so, your 5th point is invalid. Have you reconsidered your position?

The quotes got a bit messed up, but I think you can follow.

[KneeDragger_79]

Biology mandates that a fertilized egg (an embryo) splits into two or more embryos; each of which have 46 chromosomes. A sperm and an egg each have 23 chromosomes, when they combine the embryo has 46 chromosomes.

@mnben87

No, this is not how it works. One fertilized egg with 23 chromosomes, splits into two fertilized eggs with 46 chromosomes.

A human will only ever beget another human. What else could an embryo be [if the parents are human obviously]? A dog begets a dog, etc.,

@mnben87

Additionally, I am not arguing that this isn’t human in origin. I was making a point against your 5th point, which was that they are individual beings.

I swear I don’t follow. I’m over six feet tall with one functional arm. Those are two things about me. Those two “things about me” are also traits about me.

[quote=“mnben87, post:97, topic:214572”]Do you concede that being two things is not a trait of an individual being? If so, your 5th point is invalid. Have you reconsidered your position?
[/quote]

[mnben87]

@KneeDragger_79

Biology mandates that a fertilized egg (an embryo) splits into two or more embryos; each of which have 46 chromosomes. A sperm and an egg each have 23 chromosomes, when they combine the embryo has 46 chromosomes.

This is true. I was wrong about that aspect.

But,… how can an individual being actually be two individual beings. It doesn’t make sense. Your 5th point is invalid.

How do you address the fact that a fertilized egg is not necessarily a individual being?

@KneeDragger_79

swear I don’t follow. I’m over six feet tall with one functional arm. Those are two things about me. Those two “things about me” are also traits about me.

This is different than what I am asking. If you could split into two different beings and still remain one individual, that would be comparable, but I have not seen that done yet.

Additionally, and off topic, but do you support IVF? I think if I held the beliefs that you do, that I would be more concerned with IVF than abortion as IVF often results in half a dozen or more fertilized eggs that get disposed. Not only that, but they are WILLINGLY and INTENTIONALLY creating these embryos knowing 80%+ will die.

[H_factor]

@KneeDragger_79

*H we agree!! If a couple doesn’t want to have a child, they shouldn’t have sex. Or do you want the exception to be with sex? *

Are we really ignoring the rest of what was posted? Because that’s as annoying as screwing up the quote function like crazy and answering in italics.

But yes we agree. We would have less unwanted children if people didn’t have sex until they were ready to have a baby. Since that’s not how humans behave it’s a really weird thing to state. It would also be nice if people didn’t drink and drive, didn’t abuse people, didn’t break laws, took care of their health, studied harder in school, etc.

Hey if we didn’t have rape people wouldn’t get pregnant from rape. How cool would that be? Sweet man we agree. It would be nice if rape didn’t happen, if complications that may kill pregnant women didn’t happen, and people always made correct healthy decisions.

Do you want to keep wasting time saying this stuff or would you like to talk about how the world actually works?

[mnben87]

@H_factor

Are we really ignoring the rest of what was posted? Because that’s as annoying as screwing up the quote function like crazy and answering in italics.

I have the guy saying that he would change his view if any one of his 5 points was shown wrong. I have demonstrated that a fertilized egg is not an individual being (his last point) since it can split into two (which is inconsistent with an individual being). He refuses to acknowledge my argument.

Rather it is some comparison about his height and arm being attributes of him. He does not seem to care about what is true. Sadly most people don’t.

[H_factor]

Yeah I don’t care if someone proves me wrong I’ve admitted I got stuff wrong on here many times. I’m not a fan of making a lot of points and people ignoring the entire post just to highlight one spot.

[zecarlo]

He is legitimately crazy.

[mnben87]

@KneeDragger_79

The single fertilized egg splits and that makes the two fertilized eggs/embryos no longer human?

I’m not arguing that they aren’t human in origin, I’m arguing against your last point that a fertilized egg is a being. Beings are not two separate things. Do you agree with that?

I’m okay with you changing your initial position. You can even be pro life still. Your argument currently is flawed though, and should be changed.

[zecarlo]

It’s human, adjective, not human, noun, as in human being.

[mnben87]

Reading his quote, it is rather vague.

I would think he would correct me if that was his intention?

[squating_bear]

@H_factor

We should do everything we can to limit the amount of abortions that happen. So let’s increase knowledge about contraceptive use and sex education. Let’s make those items cheap or free. And let’s stop fighting against those things because we think invisible man hates horny people who aren’t married.

Everything we can?

Really?

Oh, of course not “really”, silly me.
Everything that makes kneedragger upset, and not one nano-inch more

@H_factor

Are you supporting actual ways to limit unwanted pregnancies like comprehensive sex education and contraception access? Or are you just walking around saying “don’t have sex everyone!”

There might be some benefit for some people to hear that, as an actual way to limit unwanted pregnancies

[H_factor]

@squating_bear

Everything we can?

Really?

Oh, of course not “really”, silly me.
Everything that makes kneedragger upset, and not one nano-inch more

Not sure what you mean. I believe what I pointed out has a much better chance of limiting unwanted children than saying “don’t have sex everyone!” Other than potential death of a mother abortions are going to come from unwanted children. The ways to keep that from happening are known and yet some who are adamantly pro-life fight against them.

@squating_bear

There might be some benefit for some people to hear that, as an actual way to limit unwanted pregnancies

Which would be part of comprehensive sex education. But as a whole running around saying don’t have sex if you’re not ready to have a kid will have almost zero impact. People are going to have sex even if they don’t want to have a baby and have throughout history.

[KneeDragger_79]

Now I “need to follow the crowd?” My intention was never to really bother you that bad, I never saw a forum rule mandating the form either.

Yes I have talked with ladies who were raped, only a three who were raped and then became pregnant [one had an abortion], and I don’t recall all the women who had abortions that I have met. How many men have you met who were raped? Guess what, they get raped about the same number as women which a surprising number of studies claim. My brother was one of those guys. Rape is one of the most horrendous crimes imaginable to me and do you really think a women is healed when a violent crime is perpetuated by an even greater atrocious act?

Now I’m not saying these people [the ones I have talked to] mean more than statistics but simply that statistics can never show the complete story. Someone or something is being missed.

I apologize for not completing my thoughts. With my youngest two running around right now and I often fail at completing my thoughts. Plus this medium has limitations but I will try harder. Just point out when I miss my intended target. However after reading the quote in question I don’t see where my post had zero correlation like you claim. However just please ask a clarifying question please?

So does the father get any say at all because he provides half the genetic code? He has to pay child support if the mother keeps the baby. Isn’t that sexist?

@H_factor

First off I have no idea why you reply in italics because no one does that and it looks like shit. This is an incoherent mess. You’ve talked to a few ladies that have been raped and become pregnant then throw out stats that don’t have massive population states in them. Finally you end this response with something that has absolutely nothing to do with what you’re talking about. I’m a father btw which pretty much has zero to do with a woman’s right to make decisions about her body.

You accused me of using religion and I told you to prove yourself.

@H_factor

You quoted me saying something that has nothing to do with this response. It makes it hard to follow if you don’t know how to use the quote function correctly.

I posted links from a Catholic site I originally found here on T-Nation. This proves I’m a devout Orthodox Catholic because the site helped me; yet I NEVER used my faith to defend the position of LIFE. Unless sharing a link/information is arguing from a position now, to me it’s just like giving an article or book to others.

@H_factor

Your posting history? You used to link religious propaganda and start new topics regularly on it.

Does it matter if I use my body to kill another human life?

The claim of extra body parts are critical because no single entity will ever have another complete body unless the mother is pregnant. Ever.

@H_factor

You’re right. End of discussion for me. The extra body parts isn’t relevant. Should a woman not be able to save her life because of a toe?

Why should we limit the abortion total?

All artificial hormones used for birth control cause abortions when an egg/s meet a sperm and don’t attach on the uterine wall. Sure some eggs might be stopped from being released but no where near “all the eggs” are stopped.

Your emotional arguments make my day, thanks man.

@H_factor

We should do everything we can to limit the amount of abortions that happen. So let’s increase knowledge about contraceptive use and sex education. Let’s make those items cheap or free. And let’s stop fighting against those things because we think invisible man hates horny people who aren’t married.

[KneeDragger_79]

Thank you for being honest about when you were mistaken, many people in society cannot make that step. Again a heart felt thank you

The biology of maternal twining is something I learned about quite a few years ago; knocking on the door of two decades. However if I remember right back then the science wasn’t settled. I really don’t know if they know even now or if it is still a mystery. However once and embryo splits they never join together again. But I’m not definitive about that specific topic.

A fertilized egg is at least one individual. Is what I mean by the fifth point of the biology of human embryos is the child is separate from the mother genetically? The child/ren might share half of their DNA with mom but they are separate. If I’m still confusing, I’ll bust out an embryology text and refresh my language.

@mnben87

This is true. I was wrong about that aspect.

But,… how can an individual being actually be two individual beings. It doesn’t make sense. Your 5th point is invalid.

How do you address the fact that a fertilized egg is not necessarily a individual being?

Biology wouldn’t allow a person to “split into two different beings and still remain one individual.” But like I said I’ll bust out my embryology test and take another stab.

@mnben87

This is different than what I am asking. If you could split into two different beings and still remain one individual, that would be comparable, but I have not seen that done yet.

This isn’t off topic at all. IVF is just as wrong as abortion because the fertilized eggs are each individual persons and your reasoning as to why I hold the beliefs I do is correct. Abortion specifically targets a naturally conceived child. Every day well over three thousand children are slaughtered through chemical and surgical abortions alone; birth control isn’t tabulated in those numbers because only guesstimates can be made. If IVF were to ever reach those levels then my focus would shift.

@mnben87

Additionally, and off topic, but do you support IVF? I think if I held the beliefs that you do, that I would be more concerned with IVF than abortion as IVF often results in half a dozen or more fertilized eggs that get disposed. Not only that, but they are WILLINGLY and INTENTIONALLY creating these embryos knowing 80%+ will die.

[KneeDragger_79]

Sorry H, I use when my kids nap to reply here and that’s a finite period. Jajaja, thanks for making me smile again :o ]

Call me out if I miss something though.

@H_factor

Are we really ignoring the rest of what was posted? Because that’s as annoying as screwing up the quote function like crazy and answering in italics.

I intend this as to just trying to understand where you are coming from; do you support abortion so there are fewer unwanted children? I agree with you sentiments though.

@H_factor

But yes we agree. We would have less unwanted children if people didn’t have sex until they were ready to have a baby. Since that’s not how humans behave it’s a really weird thing to state. It would also be nice if people didn’t drink and drive, didn’t abuse people, didn’t break laws, took care of their health, studied harder in school, etc.

However we live in a free society and I am very, very grateful for that. As a quick aside, how many women die from complications after delivery of her baby? How many women die from complications after a botched abortion each year?

@H_factor

Hey if we didn’t have rape people wouldn’t get pregnant from rape. How cool would that be? Sweet man we agree. It would be nice if rape didn’t happen, if complications that may kill pregnant women didn’t happen, and people always made correct healthy decisions.

Not sure where we aren’t talking about reality? We can start over though; Define the unborn, please?

@H_factor

Do you want to keep wasting time saying this stuff or would you like to talk about how the world actually works?

[KneeDragger_79]

Thank you zecarlo. Many times in life I just need to KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid! I hope your addition helps.

mnben87, does it help now when I get help?

@zecarlo

It’s human, adjective, not human, noun, as in human being.

[KneeDragger_79]

planetcybertron you posted above ^ and it looks like you deleted the posts. I hope you are not frustrated and upset with me, that is/was NEVER going to be my intention. However if I am the source for the anger, please accept my sincere apologies, please.

[mnben87]

@KneeDragger_79

I have a hypothetical for you.

Say you are in a situation in which you can save 1000 fertilized eggs each in a vial, or one live baby from a burning room. You can’t save both, it’s one or the other. What do you do?