[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I know from personal experience the truth of the existence of God (okay, laugh away gents).[/quote]
Have you ever prayed to God to cure your asthma?
It’s a serious question, I’m not waiting in the wings with a punchline…
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Life cannot come from non-life. [/quote]
Life is nothing more than chemistry backed by physics. If you leave clean, distilled water to stand in a warm environment you will soon find microbial biota–otherwise clorine wouldn’t be needed to keep pools clean.
Life can come into existance from nothing more than chemicals and a physical catalyst. So the eternal question of which came first…is irrelevent.
Energy. Matter. Life. They are all the same thing.
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Christmas SHOULD NOT be a federal holiday. It is the only one on that list I contest, because it is blatantly unconstitutional, and is a show of the power of the Christian lobby.
I apologize for assuming my government would follow it’s constitution. I should have known better.[/quote]
This Constitution you have must be a fascinating document - you should post it, and then we can compare it to the American Constitution.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I know from personal experience the truth of the existence of God (okay, laugh away gents).
Have you ever prayed to God to cure your asthma?
It’s a serious question, I’m not waiting in the wings with a punchline…[/quote]
No, I never have. I pray for those who are truly and seriously ill, people with cancer, heart disease, and other terrible diseases. Also, one of my boys recently broke his neck in wrestling practice and I pray for him.
I know that you think all that is futile and stupid. But, after my fiance in college died suddenly, God spoke to me. I know also you think it was a hallucination brought on by grief, but I’m quite sure otherwise. I’m very in control of my emotions and actually taught my math class that day.
I don’t understand why life is as it is, and you can ridicule me and my beliefs. But I swear, on my immortal soul, that there is a God and I have met God.
Of course, you could tell me that it was really Thor or Mithras, or some other being. Feel free. 
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Of course, you could tell me that it was really Thor or Mithras, or some other being. Feel free.
[/quote]
Might have been Hermes.
Actually, I think God is having a jolly old time watching us mortals bicker over which of his myriad names is the right one.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
No, I never have. I pray for those who are truly and seriously ill, people with cancer, heart disease, and other terrible diseases. Also, one of my boys recently broke his neck in wrestling practice and I pray for him.[/quote]
Why save it for those you think are seriously ill? I don’t think curing your asthma would put any kind of strain on God.
Sorry to hear that about your kid.
This is what interests me. The Bible states that if you truly believe, all your prayers will come true. Most people say they really believe, but I think they have a little doubt. You, on the other hand, have had God actually speak to you, just like He’s said to have done in the Old Testament.
So, in your case, there can actually be certainty in your belief. In fact, your beliefs would actually be knowledge of God. Your faith should be total and complete, with no doubt whatsoever.
If you pray for relief from asthma, it should be granted to you.
Hell, you should be able to heal an amputee. Think of the good you could do for war veterans that have been mangled defending your freedom.
The God who talked to you, He’s the one described in the Bible right?
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Christmas SHOULD NOT be a federal holiday. It is the only one on that list I contest, because it is blatantly unconstitutional, and is a show of the power of the Christian lobby.
I apologize for assuming my government would follow it’s constitution. I should have known better.
This Constitution you have must be a fascinating document - you should post it, and then we can compare it to the American Constitution.[/quote]
There shall be no established religion.
First amendment.
Pretty darn clear. Not like the misinterpreted second amendment.
People use God for one of two reasons.
Either to fill a void in there life (the reasonable reason), or to create more voids to hide in so they don’t have to deal with reality (the stupid one).
I don’t care whether you believe or not. I just care when religion heavily influances politics, and when religious people claim that there texts and ideas have scientific backing.
It’s called FAITH for a reason.
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Technically speaking, the United States does not have any “national holidays”. Congress has declared eleven days a year to be federal holidays, on which federal employees are entitled (but not required) to have a paid holiday. Non-essential federal offices are closed. These eleven holidays are New Year’s Day, Martin Luther King Day, Inauguration Day, Washington’s Birthday, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Columbus Day, Veteran’s Day, Thanksgiving and Christmas.
State governments may choose to recognize these days as holidays, but are under no federal compulsion to do so. Private businesses, additionally, are not required by law to close on these days, nor to provide holiday pay for employees who choose to take the day off.
Nearly all the states and many businesses do in fact recognize these days as holidays, so it comes down to nearly the same thing, but Thanksgiving and Christmas, whatever else they may be, are not national holidays in the U.S.
I stand corrected, but my points all remain exactly the same. The FEDERAL Holdiay of Christmas was established as a recognition of the celebration of the birth of Christ.
I guess I;ve been corrected a bit. Excuse me.
Christmas SHOULD NOT be a federal holiday. It is the only one on that list I contest, because it is blatantly unconstitutional, and is a show of the power of the Christian lobby.
I apologize for assuming my government would follow it’s constitution. I should have known better.[/quote]
Your answer only proves my point about the war on Christmas and on Christians. It also shows your ignorance of our Constitution. How is having this a federal holiday “establishig a religion.” There is no violation here – however you don’t like it because it is Christian. Too bad.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Your answer only proves my point about the war on Christmas and on Christians. It also shows your ignorance of our Constitution. How is having this a federal holiday “establishig a religion.” There is no violation here – however you don’t like it because it is Christian. Too bad.
[/quote]
Sigh. Ever the idiot.
Steveo, establishing special benefits for one religion, but not others, provides a de-facto adoption or preference for that religion.
Fortunately, since Christmas is essential a pagan ritual, and not religious, the government is off the hook here.
Phew, thank God for Paganism!
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Ummm… it’s still a majorly secular holiday. It’s not about giving thanks to God now, it’s about being thankful all-around.
I’m a realist. Meaning I don’t beleive in a greater being at all. I’m not offended when people talk about God, though I AM offended when god is brought into places he/she/they do/es not belong. I don’t care if Thanksgiving was originally created to thank god. Thats not what I feel during Thanksgiving, and thats not what I accept it’s message to be.
And on a second though, Steveo, this is pure flame tinder. Shit, if this isn’t a cry for a flame war, nothing is.
Troll.
I am sorry that you don’t believe in Almighty God and I am glad that you do recognize why this holiday originated. However you are wrong when you say that it is no longer so. Nobody has recinded Thanksgiving’s original intent. It was and continues to be a Day of Thanksgiving to God .
I thought it was appropriate to point this out with historical fact. That’s all.
Umm… just because YOU say that it is a holiday of God, doesn’t mean most people celebrate it that way.
So… what’s your point? Just thought you’d share a fun fact? Come on.
You’re trying to imply that America is a Christian nation. Well guess what bub, we we’re founded by Atheists and Theists alike, on principals of seperation between church and state.
So: Shut. The. Fuck. Up.
OR
Give a different point.
Wow…you can actually string a couple of sentences together quite well before you degenerate into the profane.
Anyway, I am not implying anything. That is what YOU say. I was simply stating a historical fact to encourage others to THANK GOD on the day we are to give thanks TO HIM.
Now, you do bring up an interesting point about our Founding. So, since you brought it up, for homework I would like you to “google” the Mayflower Compact and read it. . It is very brief and contains no profanity, unlike your posts.
Keep in mind that these WERE the actual founders of what was to become the United States of America. This is what they wrote before stepping off the boat.
Then, after you have read it, why not come back to this thread and report on what you found.
As for your command for me to stop posting…
The answer is no.
Sigh. Mayflower Compact = Not America. They were sepretists. If anything, they were considered religious nuts even by the old time standards. They were most certainly not the founders of the United States. I cannot remember a single sepretist (in the sense that they were part of the original super-religious following of Pilgrims) being present at the Constitutional Convention, because they no longer existed at that point. The reliiousness died with the new generation, who was more concered with surviving and making money than with God.
By the time America was actually founded, the religious ferver of the Puritan sepretists had calmed a whole damn lot. The CONSTITUTION was created by both Theists (very few were actually Christian, and most prefered the “watchmaker God”) and Atheists alike.
You say your just pointing out that Thanksgiving is for giving Thanks to God.
Well I’m just pointing out that it’s not like that anymore for a lot of the people in the US. That it’s changed, so the originaly intent doesn’t really matter at all.
If you keep making these threads maybe I should start throwing threads up claiming how most “Christian” holidays are actually Pagan ones, or that the founders of the US were majorily Atheist (if not declared then in all but name).
Seriously. I’m not pushing Atheism with new threads, don’t push Christianity.
Well, the original intent or the original reason for a holiday is important. George Washington, who was certainly one of our nations founders, echoed the 1621 Thanksgiving Proclamation and declared that the holiday was to thank and praise God.
The fact that people don’t recognize this is terrible and perhaps if more people would stop and thank God, just perhaps this nation would be in a little better spiritual condition than it is now.
I do appreciate your last post which is to debate and disagree without being disagreeable. Thank you for that.
You still don’t get it. The holiday has changed.
If anything, religion is ruining this nation. The more secular nations are so much more better off than the religious ones, it’s getting rediculous.
The Evangelicals have somehow dominated and perversed our political system, and the Jewish lobby is doing something similar to our foreign policy. It is religion in the Middle East that has created such abundance of Tyranny.
Our originators left England to ESCAPE religious persecution. To escape the forced Anglican Church. Christianity is not, was not, and never will be the national religion, because our constitution makes it damn clear that an established religion would be a disgrace to everything this country stands for.
Well, for now I will overlook your antisemitic comment and give you the benefit of the doubt. I hope you will clarify this comment about the “Jewish lobby,” and I hope that your feelings toward the Jewish people are not what your comment might indicate.
However, going to your point that “religion is runining this country,” I ask you, really? Has it really? In fact, I would argue that it is the secularization of our nation that is ruining it. Think about it, before God was taken out of the schools and before the Bible was tosses aside, where were the metal detectors at the doors of our schools? Where were the Columbines? Where were the millions of babies being killed every year? Where was the divorce rate? Where was the %'age of kids being born out of wedlock (today this is 40% of all babies).
Your problem is that you equate Christians with Islamic “facists” and you, as often is the case, you blame America first. Name the last time a Fundamental Christian blew up a bus. Name the last time a Bible-believer gunned someone down in cold blood. Name the last Christian to start a war.
Your facts are flawed and your beliefs are wrong. I am not saying that Christianity is the national religion, but I am asserting through history that we were indeed founded upon Christian principles and certainly the forefathers who stepped from the Mayflower – which by the way included the Separtists, Puritians (who were part of the Anglican Church), and non-believers – wrote that one of their purposes was to “advance the Christian religion.” That is a quote from the Mayflower compact. They wanted to spread the Christian faith through establishing a foothold in the New World. These, sir, are the facts.
Now, please explain your anti-semitic comment.
A) HAHAHAHA. I’m a JEW. Not anti-semetic. And if you seriously beleive the Jewish lobby doesn’t exist, well, it does. It holds a great amount of power actually. It’s the main reason we so strongly supported Isreal, and continue to today. It’s a lobby. Not ALL jewish people, damn. Just like the Christian lobby doesn’t represent all Christians.
B) Last Christian to start a war: George W. Bush.
C) There were terrible things done before Christianity was taken out of the schools.
Look at the secular nations. They have the greatest standard of living, the highest literacy rates, ect ect.
D) I do so hope you rmember the “crusades”. The “Salem Witch Trials”. The “Spanish Inquisition”. If you bring the past into this, why shouldn’t I?
E) Whens the last time an Atheist started a war? Or a secular nation for that matter? (Stalin wasn’t an Atheist, before you jump on it. He seemed to be , publically, but by searching his videos and speeches, he’s most obviously a theist. Though I’m not sure if he was Christian.)
F) Christianity does not produce morals. It doesn’t even stand on good morals. The bible is filled with horrible, depraved things being apporved of. And even though Christianity seems to shout good morality, in actuallity it does little to make people more moral. Look how many Christians murder, steal, adulter ect…
G) For the love off… THE MAYFLOWER COMPACT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR FOUNDING.
Clear enough? Those religious feelings dissipated with the second generation. Thats why John Winthrop got so fricken pissed off in his later life. The second and third generations had little of the religious ferver of the older group.
Franklin, Jefferson, Madisdon, Hamilton, Adams, these are among our founders, and they are mostly Atheists, or Theists who thought Christianity as a whole was ridiculous.
They were beleivers ot the Enlightenment. The period where the philosophs questioned religion. They searched for natural laws, outside those published in the bible. Though they still maybe tied to religion, certainly not the ferverous Christianity that you spout.
[/quote]
What a diatribe!
I am not going to deal with all of your drivel, except to point out the following:
(1) As a Jewish person, you should know better than to use terms like “Jewish lobby” in the way you used it on a public forum. We have enough people who dislike Jewish people and will look to anything to fan those biases.
(2) Those who stepped from the Mayflower were the first people who came that led to our eventual founding. They left an historic document showing the reason and purpose for which they came. That history is fact and while you are allowed to have your opinions, you cannot have your own facts.
(3) Whatever you want to say about the Founding Fathers notwithstanding, the fact of the matter is that I cut and pasted George Washington’s own proclamation which is filled and enfused with appeals to praise and thank God. Not Mohammed. Not Budda. Not Darwin. Not the sun. But God. That is who Washington told us to thank and that is the reason for the holiday whether or not you believe or wish to accept it.
Again, you can have your opinions, but you cannot have your own facts. The facts are on the side of God on this one!
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Christmas SHOULD NOT be a federal holiday. It is the only one on that list I contest, because it is blatantly unconstitutional, and is a show of the power of the Christian lobby.
I apologize for assuming my government would follow it’s constitution. I should have known better.
This Constitution you have must be a fascinating document - you should post it, and then we can compare it to the American Constitution.
There shall be no established religion.
First amendment.
Pretty darn clear. Not like the misinterpreted second amendment.[/quote]
Correct. Having a Federal holiday to honor Jesus Christ’s birth is not establishing a religion. You must be a left-wing Democratic liberal, because this is the lame excuse that you guys have used during the last 50 years to rip God and everything good and moral out of our society.
Think about it. God was taken from society and we have:
(1) 1.2 million babies slaughtered each year.
(2) 40% of children born out of wedlock.
(3) Preteens having sex.
(4) Kids killing each other in schools.
(5) Moral fabric of our society down in the toilet.
(6) Profantiy everywhere you look.
The same people who would be offended by having the Ten Commandments on a wall of a school, have no problem with a teacher explaining how to use a condom for sex to 12 years olds. How idiotic is this?
I am sick and tired of you libs using the Establishment Clause to excuse eliminating God from society. Do you really think Washington, given his Thanksgiving proclamation, thought he was violating the U.S. Constitution when he wrote that? Would you now accuse George Washington the Father of our Nation of violating the constitution?
Think!
[quote]vroom wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Your answer only proves my point about the war on Christmas and on Christians. It also shows your ignorance of our Constitution. How is having this a federal holiday “establishig a religion.” There is no violation here – however you don’t like it because it is Christian. Too bad.
Sigh. Ever the idiot.
Steveo, establishing special benefits for one religion, but not others, provides a de-facto adoption or preference for that religion.
Fortunately, since Christmas is essential a pagan ritual, and not religious, the government is off the hook here.
Phew, thank God for Paganism![/quote]
Once again you make a complete idiot out of yourself. Christmas was set up to honor Christ. We are “off the hook,” because there is no hook. Since the U.S. was established by people who sought to honor God and praise Him and advance the Christian faith, we have every right to make holidays to honor Christ. This doesn’t force anyone to follow the religion or believe what we believe, but we are, like it or not, a Christian nation and most of us like it this way.
Establishing a religion is when a legislative body declares a particular faith as the national faith and that it must be followed. Nothing of the sort has been done by making Christmas a Federal Holiday. Nothing of the sort is done when students pray at school. Nothing of the sort is done when the Ten Commandments hang on a wall, and nothing of the sort is done when a president declares that a holiday is to praise and honor God.
Do you really think President George Washington violated the U.S. Constitution when he procalimed that Thanksgiving was to Almighty God?
How foolish of you Vroom.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Once again you make a complete idiot out of yourself. Christmas was set up to honor Christ. We are “off the hook,” because there is no hook. Since the U.S. was established by people who sought to honor God and praise Him and advance the Christian faith, we have every right to make holidays to honor Christ. This doesn’t force anyone to follow the religion or believe what we believe, but we are, like it or not, a Christian nation and most of us like it this way.[/quote]
LOL! You live in a secular nation with a large number of Christians within it. However, I think you missed the fact I was being foolish and joking around.
This is your opinion on the matter, and you are welcome to your deluded foolish opinion, but don’t expect everyone to agree with you.
Perhaps you should learn to differentiate between what you want, or prefer, and what something actually is.
[quote]Do you really think President George Washington violated the U.S. Constitution when he procalimed that Thanksgiving was to Almighty God?
How foolish of you Vroom.[/quote]
There is a difference between some loudmouth making proclamations and having a government continually show preferential treatment to a certain religion.
Anyway, keep calling me foolish for statements made in jest or for statements that I didn’t even make, if that will make you feel intelligent.
Moron.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Think about it. God was taken from society and we have:
(1) 1.2 million babies slaughtered each year.
(2) 40% of children born out of wedlock.
(3) Preteens having sex.
(4) Kids killing each other in schools.
(5) Moral fabric of our society down in the toilet.
(6) Profantiy everywhere you look.
[/quote]
While I don’t disagree that American society has taken a drastic downturn since the end of the second World War, I wonder if all of the blame can be laid at the feet of godlessness. Relatively speaking, the United States is one of the most religious nations, in terms of professed believers, in the western world.
Canada, Australia and New Zealand are far less religious than the United States (30%, 25%, and 22% atheist respectively, as opposed to 9% in the US), and their societies seem to be pretty much intact.
European countries are even less religious: over 40% of the French, nearly 50% of the Danes, and a whopping 85% of the Swedes do not believe in God. Say what you will about Europe, but it does not seem to be a writhing cauldron of lawlessness and iniquity.
And Japan? Probably more atheists per square meter than anywhere else in the world (with the possible exception of Vietnam), but still the safest, most orderly, and generally most moral place I’ve ever been.
So how can we account for this collapse of American society of which you speak? Is it our unique multi-ethnic and multicultural milieu? Our unequaled consumerist ethos? The prevalence of shit masquerading as popular culture on TV and magazines? Or could it be that all of this crime and immorality is being practiced only by that nonbelieving 9% of the population?
For the record: I do not hate America, I don’t hate God, and I’m not trying to be a smartass. I simply want to know, Steveo: do you really think that a dose of religion is all this country needs to right its wrongs?
(The data for the percentages quoted above are available if anyone wants them.)
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Think about it. God was taken from society and we have:
(1) 1.2 million babies slaughtered each year.
(2) 40% of children born out of wedlock.
(3) Preteens having sex.
(4) Kids killing each other in schools.
(5) Moral fabric of our society down in the toilet.
(6) Profantiy everywhere you look.
While I don’t disagree that American society has taken a drastic downturn since the end of the second World War, I wonder if all of the blame can be laid at the feet of godlessness. Relatively speaking, the United States is one of the most religious nations, in terms of professed believers, in the western world.
Canada, Australia and New Zealand are far less religious than the United States (30%, 25%, and 22% atheist respectively, as opposed to 9% in the US), and their societies seem to be pretty much intact.
European countries are even less religious: over 40% of the French, nearly 50% of the Danes, and a whopping 85% of the Swedes do not believe in God. Say what you will about Europe, but it does not seem to be a writhing cauldron of lawlessness and iniquity.
And Japan? Probably more atheists per square meter than anywhere else in the world (with the possible exception of Vietnam), but still the safest, most orderly, and generally most moral place I’ve ever been.
So how can we account for this collapse of American society of which you speak? Is it our unique multi-ethnic and multicultural milieu? Our unequaled consumerist ethos? The prevalence of shit masquerading as popular culture on TV and magazines? Or could it be that all of this crime and immorality is being practiced only by that nonbelieving 9% of the population?
For the record: I do not hate America, I don’t hate God, and I’m not trying to be a smartass. I simply want to know, Steveo: do you really think that a dose of religion is all this country needs to right its wrongs?
(The data for the percentages quoted above are available if anyone wants them.)
[/quote]
I was actually gonna ask this same thing. USA has a ton of self-proclaimed Christians, I mean, we have an area called “The Bible Belt.” Last I checked an overwhelming number of voters in the last presidential election voted for Bush because of moral issues.
So tell me, are all these Christians talking the talk but not walking the walk?
[quote]Ren wrote:
So tell me, are all these Christians talking the talk but not walking the walk
[/quote]
Any Christian will tell you it doesn’t matter how you live your life as long as you accept Jesus and ask for forgiveness for your sins before you die. This essentially equates to a free ride. If you look at the religions that do not have this feature you tend to see less “moral depravity”.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Ren wrote:
So tell me, are all these Christians talking the talk but not walking the walk
Any Christian will tell you it doesn’t matter how you live your life as long as you accept Jesus and ask for forgiveness for your sins before you die. This essentially equates to a free ride. If you look at the religions that do not have this feature you tend to see less “moral depravity”.[/quote]
Forgive me for heartily disagreeing with your overly harsh assessment of my religion.
As Christians it is our duty to try not to sin. However, when we fail we are forgiven.
I am reminded of this scripture in Romans 6-1&2:
“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?”
And this scripture as well 1Corinthians 15-34:
“Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning.”
We must make sure that we are not confusing “grace” with “acceptance.”
Furthermore, God knows the heart and your intentions. Setting out to sin is far different than slipping into sin. A true Christian does not want to sin, but as any human may fall on occasion.
Thanks for your patience.
V
Wherever you replace thinking with blind fundamentalism you will find human depravity and suffering. We have both brains and the responsibility to use them.
Just look around the planet… fundamental beliefs supplant concern and care for fellow humans all the time.
However, this doesn’t imply that one cannot be a thinking Christian or a thinking constituent of another religion. Knowing that caring for other humans is what religions implore, so that religions are not then raised above such care when inevitable conflicting ideas emerge.
I hate to but in as this is very ammusing.
Wouldn’t this be George W. Bush?
Do I get a prize now?