Testosterone, HCG, Anastrozole and DHEA

Currently I’m 5’9’and 245lbs at 40 yrs old. Most of my fat is around my mid section and my recent T levels came back at 166 which I suspect have been low for several years. The doc put me on 210mg of test cyp every week with 500 units of HCG twice a week and an Nololdex twice per week. He also prescribed CMP DHEA two times a day. I’ve started lifting in the gym and watching what I eat keeping it high in protein and low carbs.

Can anyone tell me what to expect? My goal is to put on some muscle and drop the fat. Currently this is a 15 week program and I was curious if my body will change by the end of the 15 weeks? Will I gain muscle or is my test prescription too low? Should I experience weight loss? Please any helpful answers will be much appreciated.

I also have 3 unopened bottles of Axiron that I have not taken. Shoudl I finish these out or leave them alone?

[quote]Phantasm wrote:
Currently I’m 5’9’and 245lbs at 40 yrs old. Most of my fat is around my mid section and my recent T levels came back at 166 which I suspect have been low for several years. The doc put me on 210mg of test cyp every week with 500 units of HCG twice a week and an Nololdex twice per week. He also prescribed CMP DHEA two times a day. I’ve started lifting in the gym and watching what I eat keeping it high in protein and low carbs.

Can anyone tell me what to expect? My goal is to put on some muscle and drop the fat. Currently this is a 15 week program and I was curious if my body will change by the end of the 15 weeks? Will I gain muscle or is my test prescription too low? Should I experience weight loss? Please any helpful answers will be much appreciated.

I also have 3 unopened bottles of Axiron that I have not taken. Shoudl I finish these out or leave them alone?[/quote]

Dr is not upto date on TRT and there aer 2 many variables at play here. You have no clue what is doing what. Nolvadex ?! Come on give me a break with all those estrogen driving factors …PLEASE

I know this is the last thing you want to hear, but I really suggest you read through the “Protocol” Sticky. You are on a pretty crazy regiment and you need to learn why you shouldn’t be doing what you are doing. Was this prescribed from an anti-aging clinic? The “15 week program” thing is a tip-off, especially because TRT is for life. The 210mg dose isn’t too low. In fact, it is just over double the recommended starting dose of 100mg a week - a dose that is all that is necessary for most guys on TRT. If you got on TRT after only one lab then you are jumping into TRT without having a complete idea of what is going on and may end up doing more harm than good.

Read through all the Stickies on the front page - it will prevent you from screwing up your body. You seem to be unclear as to whether you are trying to get on TRT to normalize your testosterone levels, or if you want to do a cycle to make gains in the gym. What you are doing right now isn’t really either option.

And in terms of training and diet: There are several great forums for lifting, and you can pick a forum that fits which flavor of lifting you like (Olympic, Training geared toward body-building, etc.). The “Supplements and Nutrition” forum would be the place to go to discuss your diet and what you can do to improve/modify what you’re doing now.

Thank you for the info. Everything I’m taking is prescribed by a doctor from a TRT clinic. For several years I have been overweight especially with fat around my mid section. I don’t drink but yet it still looks like I have a beer belly. My diet hasn’t been the best in the past, but my urge to visit the gym or exerciser wasn’t there either. Most of the time I found myself sleepy with a lack of energy and libido. During my conversation with the clinic I told them that I wanted to lose weight, gain some muscle and get back into the gym. I do realize that this is for life and honestly I just want to do the right thing so I went to the doctor.

I really appreciate the feedback and have read the stickies but I find myself even more confused. The info I gathered was 100mg weekly would put me almost normal since my T levels are well below 200 consistently. Everything I read says the normal dosage is 100 to 200mg weekly and anything above 400mg would be considered a cycle. I also read that estrogen causes belly fat which is my main problem. Would the estrogen blocker help prevent belly fat and reduce it over time?

Thank you again for your feedback!

I forgot to write that I’ve had four labs done in six months and 166 is the highest my T level has reached except for the 500 peak on Axiron. Axiron took me to 500 for a short period of time but wore off quickly.

It’s interesting because E2 gets blamed by many anytime you have a “big guy” with low T. Yet, I have seen very few obese men who actually have an elevated E2. The thinking is they had it at one time but as T levels dropped so did E2. The problem is this should’ve caused a lack of negative feedback and cause things to rise and it doesn’t. Then this month there was a study published looking at the hormone profiles of obese pre-teens and teens and guess what? Their E2 was not elevated.

E2 gets blamed a lot but it seems like there’s more going on. I have seen articles that show high carb diets have a direct effect on testosterone production immediately after the meal. I suppose if one strings enough of these high carb meals together over years it could over time represent significant suppression of test production.

Anyway, there are also good articles out there looking at using testosterone replacement in secondary hypo guys to help correct all the dysfunctional endocrinology to help with weight loss and increase lean body mass…even if not staying on TRT is your long term goal. I’m currently in the middle of this protocol and I have to say the lean mass is going on easier and the my adiposity is down significantly…I feel good too. There is also good research that these individuals benefit from a higher dose of TRT since it’s only being used short-term. Still physiologic levels but there is a difference in how people lose adiposity and gain lean mass that is dose dependent even within the normal range. I started at 100mg test per week and now I’m at 200mg based on my initial blood work and I feel even better. Goal is to get to a certain weight and try a restart.

[quote]Phantasm wrote:
Thank you for the info. Everything I’m taking is prescribed by a doctor from a TRT clinic. For several years I have been overweight especially with fat around my mid section. I don’t drink but yet it still looks like I have a beer belly. My diet hasn’t been the best in the past, but my urge to visit the gym or exerciser wasn’t there either. Most of the time I found myself sleepy with a lack of energy and libido. During my conversation with the clinic I told them that I wanted to lose weight, gain some muscle and get back into the gym. I do realize that this is for life and honestly I just want to do the right thing so I went to the doctor.

I really appreciate the feedback and have read the stickies but I find myself even more confused. The info I gathered was 100mg weekly would put me almost normal since my T levels are well below 200 consistently. Everything I read says the normal dosage is 100 to 200mg weekly and anything above 400mg would be considered a cycle. I also read that estrogen causes belly fat which is my main problem. Would the estrogen blocker help prevent belly fat and reduce it over time?

Thank you again for your feedback![/quote]

I appreciate you taking the time to say “thank you”, two words that seems to elude many guys.

At 100mg a week, most guys will be in the 600-700ng/dL range. At 200mg a week, most guys will be in the 1000-1200ng/dL range. I am on 200mg a week and, combined with the tiny boost the hCG gives me, my levels hang around the 1150ng/dL mark. This is on the high end of the range, and I probably go slightly over the range at “peak” values, but it came down to this: At lower doses (100mg, 150mg, 175mg) I still had many of the low T symptoms. Once I hit the 200mg dose I started feeling “normal” again. Every BODY is different; Some guys feel awesome at 100mg and some guys feel like shit at 150mg. It is important to start low and work your way up. At the dose you are at (210mg) there is little, if any, wiggle room. I don’t know many people who are on more than 200mg/wk, though they are out there - It’s just a pretty rare occurrence.

Post any labs that you do have. It’s important to have a full set of labs done BEFORE starting TRT as you could be medicating your low T issue with the wrong medication. Obviously that’s a little late now, but getting labs done now is better than never. Optimally you would cycle off the stuff, wait a few weeks, and get a solid base-line done so you know what your “normal” labs are like. Whether you do that is up to you.

There are several things that cause low T, and clearing those up usually can return guys to normal T levels. This is called Secondary Hypogonadism wherein something BESIDES testicular failure is causing low T levels, such as Thyroid problems, Adrenal problems, E2 problems, Pituitary problems, etc. Primary Hypogonadism is where everything else is working the way it is supposed to, but no matter what the testicles don’t/can’t produce adequate T levels. Many disorders have overlapping symptoms with Low T, so getting those squared away is important in order to see what disorder is causing which symptom.

You’re in kind of a sticky situation; You are on a pretty hefty T dose, but you aren’t on an aromatase inhibitor (AI like Arimidex [generic anastrozole]). But, you don’t necessarily want to start taking an AI without knowing whether you need one. Best case scenario, you get your E2 tested and then start an AI based on your labs, but it may not hurt to start taking an AI now and follow up with labs in a couple weeks. 1mg a week of Arimidex spread out into as many doses as possible (I do 4 because I can’t cut the tab smaller). 1mg covers most guys, even up to 200mg/wk but you may need more or less depending on how your body responds. My regiment is this: Test injection 100mg on Monday and Thursday, and I take the AI on Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday.

Nolvadex is taken by either guys coming off of testosterone use, guys who are on a Steroid Cycle, or guys with Secondary Hypogonadism who use it to stimulate LH and FSH production. Since you are on synthetic T, the Nolva won’t be able to “break through” in order to stimulate LH/FSH production which is why you use the hCG while on testosterone. Nolva doesn’t lower E2 levels, and some believe it produces extra E2. I don’t know if it does, but the way those who do believe it raises E2 have the following thought process: Nolva binds to E2 receptors, preventing normal E2 from binding; Your body thinks that your E2 levels are low since the Nolva is preventing E2 from binding and “registering”, so your body ramps up your E2 production. This isn’t a bad thing while you’re on Nolva since it is blocking E2 from binding, but once you stop taking it you’ll have an influx of E2 binding where the Nolva used to be, and that leads to some bad things. Anyway, this can be prevented by starting on an AI.

You should change your hCG dosing to 250iu every-other-day (EOD). This more replicates the consistent bursting of LH in your body. Taking it only twice a week isn’t optimal, but is better than nothing. The 250iu dosing is low enough to where you won’t burn out your receptors after decades of use, but is high enough to keep the boys running and prevents testicular pain and recession (which I had before starting hCG, and let me tell you IT IS AWFUL!).

It’s really good that you are asking questions and actually trying to learn about this stuff. Keep reading anything you can find that will help you be a more informed patient. And, of course, keep asking questions as they arise. Make sure to get some labs and post the results here so we can see what is going on.

Following this protocol. I have hcg 5000. If I inject 1ml of water this will give two weeks worth at 250 on Saturday 250 on Sunday then test 1ml twice a week and arimedex eod ?