Testicular Atrophy PCT

Pharma
81

[quote]muscle_meathead wrote:
Generally speaking we are against HCG usage in PCT, yes. But I was just going to advocate HCG useage; if you have tried the SERMs and confirmed either with blood test or ‘how you feel’ that you are indeed still shutdown.

I haven’t used androgens in quite some time. Been thinking about it; have some ghrp. After reading/watching this thread; where you have debated TRT essentially; it gives me pause. I feel as though I have recovered easily from previous cycles. Entering my 30’s though, it may be time to be more careful and use hcg in my cycles.

Goodluck Singh, I hope you can find your path; whether it be getting back to ‘normal’ production or whatever it may be.

PS. You may also want to throw low dose arimidex in there. It has shown to have a positive impact on FSH and LH if I recall; and obviously it will help keep estrogen in check. [/quote]

Yep I am using adex aswell. I think I mentioned it earlier but I may have missed it. Because you are entering your 30’s however it puts you in a world of difference to me as I am in the early 20’s. For you to use TRT would be more understandable then for me, although TRT is not really used out of choice but necessity.

83

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
Hows the recovery going Sing? Im interested in how how you’ve got on and what you decided to do in the end.[/quote]

Hi MG!
Well as i’ve mentioned, im still in Shit Street.
What I have decided to do now, I am using high blasts of hCG (1000iu+ EOD) to see if that can restart me. I know that this board is against hCG in PCT but I suppose its my last ditch attempt to recover so why not. Im using adex with it as i’ve read KSman recommended it. I am also using a SERM to attempt to continue the LH signal.
As the Triptorelin didnt work I figure I might aswell die fighting and try everything and anything before thinking about TRT. [/quote]

A few points.

Using arimidex will help keep estrogen under control with exogenous test in the system, it’ll also raise your natural test when it kicks in. The flipside to that is you wont know its helped since killing off your estrogen enough to raise testosterone will kill your sex drive regardless and make you feel like crap. You will also get an estrogen rebound when coming off the AI. If you are using nolvadex, the two interact to reduce blood levels of either drug leaving a pretty shitty mess for recovery if you ask me. You are also dosing your HCG too high.

Drop the clomid and the arimidex, stick with the nolva and run the HCG at 300iu shot daily for no more than 30 days. Get bloodwork done during the HCG to see if your test is coming back online. Then taper off the nolva over a month or two after you drop the HCG to allow your estrogen time to settle down. I would have shot the trip during this period, if at all.

I mean this in the nicest way, but I dont think you really planned your PCT that well, you need to plan it out and stick with the plan, and have a plan B so you know what your doing if you run into trouble. Dont panic and dont start thinking TRT is your only option.

84

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
Hows the recovery going Sing? Im interested in how how you’ve got on and what you decided to do in the end.[/quote]

Hi MG!
Well as i’ve mentioned, im still in Shit Street.
What I have decided to do now, I am using high blasts of hCG (1000iu+ EOD) to see if that can restart me. I know that this board is against hCG in PCT but I suppose its my last ditch attempt to recover so why not. Im using adex with it as i’ve read KSman recommended it. I am also using a SERM to attempt to continue the LH signal.
As the Triptorelin didnt work I figure I might aswell die fighting and try everything and anything before thinking about TRT. [/quote]

So what did the bloodwork reveal?

I assume you’ve had results BEFORE you decided to shoot loads of HCG?

BBB[/quote]

LH 0.2 (1.5-5.6)
FSH 0.1 (1.4-4.8)
Test 6 (14-32)
Estradiol 32 (28-67)
Prolactin 70 (56-229)

Yes I had bloods before I started the hCG.

85

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
Hows the recovery going Sing? Im interested in how how you’ve got on and what you decided to do in the end.[/quote]

Hi MG!
Well as i’ve mentioned, im still in Shit Street.
What I have decided to do now, I am using high blasts of hCG (1000iu+ EOD) to see if that can restart me. I know that this board is against hCG in PCT but I suppose its my last ditch attempt to recover so why not. Im using adex with it as i’ve read KSman recommended it. I am also using a SERM to attempt to continue the LH signal.
As the Triptorelin didnt work I figure I might aswell die fighting and try everything and anything before thinking about TRT. [/quote]

A few points.

Using arimidex will help keep estrogen under control with exogenous test in the system, it’ll also raise your natural test when it kicks in. The flipside to that is you wont know its helped since killing off your estrogen enough to raise testosterone will kill your sex drive regardless and make you feel like crap. You will also get an estrogen rebound when coming off the AI. If you are using nolvadex, the two interact to reduce blood levels of either drug leaving a pretty shitty mess for recovery if you ask me. You are also dosing your HCG too high.

Drop the clomid and the arimidex, stick with the nolva and run the HCG at 300iu shot daily for no more than 30 days. Get bloodwork done during the HCG to see if your test is coming back online. Then taper off the nolva over a month or two after you drop the HCG to allow your estrogen time to settle down. I would have shot the trip during this period, if at all.

I mean this in the nicest way, but I dont think you really planned your PCT that well, you need to plan it out and stick with the plan, and have a plan B so you know what your doing if you run into trouble. Dont panic and dont start thinking TRT is your only option.
[/quote]

I thought I had the PCT covered, it was very aggressive doseage-wise and should have been enough to elicit a HPTA response.
What you recommend on the hCG I have tried last week with absolutely no difference in testicular volume. A week of 300iu ED should have triggered some sort of a response.
The reason why I added the adex in was because of the dose of hCG I am using currently, as what I understand is it will raise testicular aromatase leading to high oestrogen which will obviously be detrimental to HPTA recovery. I also dropped the nolva and picked up clomid due to the mentioned interaction with adex.

86

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:
Nice to have you in my thread MM.
I would say I thought I was recovering because I felt good, but I can attribute that to having levels of exogenous test still floating around so I spoke too soon.
I have sort of stopped panicking but to be honest with you i didnt WANT to panic, it just was inevitable from the clomid and the low test. The real problem is the impact on my university and future plans. I had very positive and high dreams when I was on cycle, I felt I could do anything and I was moving towards my goal.
Now however, those dreams are gone with thoughts of failure and worry. Even though there is absolutely nothing to actually worry about.[/quote]

SB - while I am not educated enough in this area to give advice on your endocrine recovery, I also share your issue with negative impact on school. While I’ve been dealing with my own problem I started my first year of law school after receiving an entrance scholarship for high GPA and LSAT score. Since then I’ve performed utterly horribly due to my condition.

Since there is a good chance I’ll actually fail the year, and I will definitely receive shit grades regardless - I am going to try to use the depression angle for a bit of slack. I have a good friend who got out of a year of school due to depression problems, w/ no negative impact on his academic record. Its true these problems were not self induced like ours, but your school doesn’t need to know that.

While most Docs will be unlikely to write you a note if you go in and tell them you have low T and its ruining your performance in school, if you are able to present yourself as suffering from serious depression and unable to do the things you need to, you may be able to gain some leeway. Even if you are not fully excused from your year, you may be given extensions, test re-writes, make-up assignments etc.

I know it’s not the first choice route to take, especially if it means repeating a yr, and it may be somewhat embarrassing to reveal this stuff to a Doc and subsequently the administration of your faculty - but it may be worth it to you in order to keep the doors open. At your age, repeating a year of university w/out an impact on your GPA should be no big deal - especially if you want to get into a competitive program and need to keep your GPA high (I think I read you are premed?). You may actually benefit from a GPA boost if you repeat a year since you already have done lots of work and “previewed” your classes.

I can offer a few strategies for pursuing this avenue, but I’ll leave that for now since you may not be at all willing to consider this. Either way, I hope everything comes together for you soon, I know it’s tough right now

87

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
Hows the recovery going Sing? Im interested in how how you’ve got on and what you decided to do in the end.[/quote]

Hi MG!
Well as i’ve mentioned, im still in Shit Street.
What I have decided to do now, I am using high blasts of hCG (1000iu+ EOD) to see if that can restart me. I know that this board is against hCG in PCT but I suppose its my last ditch attempt to recover so why not. Im using adex with it as i’ve read KSman recommended it. I am also using a SERM to attempt to continue the LH signal.
As the Triptorelin didnt work I figure I might aswell die fighting and try everything and anything before thinking about TRT. [/quote]

A few points.

Using arimidex will help keep estrogen under control with exogenous test in the system, it’ll also raise your natural test when it kicks in. The flipside to that is you wont know its helped since killing off your estrogen enough to raise testosterone will kill your sex drive regardless and make you feel like crap. You will also get an estrogen rebound when coming off the AI. If you are using nolvadex, the two interact to reduce blood levels of either drug leaving a pretty shitty mess for recovery if you ask me. You are also dosing your HCG too high.

Drop the clomid and the arimidex, stick with the nolva and run the HCG at 300iu shot daily for no more than 30 days. Get bloodwork done during the HCG to see if your test is coming back online. Then taper off the nolva over a month or two after you drop the HCG to allow your estrogen time to settle down. I would have shot the trip during this period, if at all.

I mean this in the nicest way, but I dont think you really planned your PCT that well, you need to plan it out and stick with the plan, and have a plan B so you know what your doing if you run into trouble. Dont panic and dont start thinking TRT is your only option.
[/quote]

I thought I had the PCT covered, it was very aggressive doseage-wise and should have been enough to elicit a HPTA response.
What you recommend on the hCG I have tried last week with absolutely no difference in testicular volume. A week of 300iu ED should have triggered some sort of a response.
The reason why I added the adex in was because of the dose of hCG I am using currently, as what I understand is it will raise testicular aromatase leading to high oestrogen which will obviously be detrimental to HPTA recovery. I also dropped the nolva and picked up clomid due to the mentioned interaction with adex. [/quote]

With a 300 iu dose, a week is not long enough to see a significant change in testicular volume, not from my experience, but then again my nuts dont seem to change much at all even after being on for freaking ages.

I guess running the clomid instead of nolva for the arimidex is a good idea, although clomid can make you feel like shit too. The bloodwork does explain whats going on though, your testes are not the problem. The only thing you can do here is stay on a serm, or assume your trip was bunk and try and get some of the real thing. Im a bit wary of buying trip form research chem sites, id rather get the brand name stuff and dilute it myself.

I would personally just wait it out on a serm, get some GHRP to help hold onto those gains, its probably going to be hell for a while but you will recover eventually as you found out last time. I think also I would seriously consider laying off the gear for a long time and in future just doing two weekers.

88

At this point I honestly think your recovery would have been better with a standard 4 week run of a SERM at a regular dosage…

Going back through the pages I just see a confusing blur of ridiculously high SERM usage concurrent with ADex and HCG in sporadic bursts. Throw Tripto into the mix to make it just a pure fucking Endocrinological massacre.

Please please please just run a SERM -EXCLUSIVELY-(<-- read carefully) for 4 weeks, and re-evaluate your position then. By using HCG this whole time you have effectively turned a planned 6 week cycle into 13+ weeks of suppression. I know its hard to be objective when your fearing for your health, but you must understand the need to avoid HPTA suppression above all else.

-PTD

89

[quote]Robert Paulson wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:
Nice to have you in my thread MM.
I would say I thought I was recovering because I felt good, but I can attribute that to having levels of exogenous test still floating around so I spoke too soon.
I have sort of stopped panicking but to be honest with you i didnt WANT to panic, it just was inevitable from the clomid and the low test. The real problem is the impact on my university and future plans. I had very positive and high dreams when I was on cycle, I felt I could do anything and I was moving towards my goal.
Now however, those dreams are gone with thoughts of failure and worry. Even though there is absolutely nothing to actually worry about.[/quote]

SB - while I am not educated enough in this area to give advice on your endocrine recovery, I also share your issue with negative impact on school. While I’ve been dealing with my own problem I started my first year of law school after receiving an entrance scholarship for high GPA and LSAT score. Since then I’ve performed utterly horribly due to my condition.

Since there is a good chance I’ll actually fail the year, and I will definitely receive shit grades regardless - I am going to try to use the depression angle for a bit of slack. I have a good friend who got out of a year of school due to depression problems, w/ no negative impact on his academic record. Its true these problems were not self induced like ours, but your school doesn’t need to know that.

While most Docs will be unlikely to write you a note if you go in and tell them you have low T and its ruining your performance in school, if you are able to present yourself as suffering from serious depression and unable to do the things you need to, you may be able to gain some leeway. Even if you are not fully excused from your year, you may be given extensions, test re-writes, make-up assignments etc.

I know it’s not the first choice route to take, especially if it means repeating a yr, and it may be somewhat embarrassing to reveal this stuff to a Doc and subsequently the administration of your faculty - but it may be worth it to you in order to keep the doors open. At your age, repeating a year of university w/out an impact on your GPA should be no big deal - especially if you want to get into a competitive program and need to keep your GPA high (I think I read you are premed?). You may actually benefit from a GPA boost if you repeat a year since you already have done lots of work and “previewed” your classes.

I can offer a few strategies for pursuing this avenue, but I’ll leave that for now since you may not be at all willing to consider this. Either way, I hope everything comes together for you soon, I know it’s tough right now[/quote]

Thank you for your help.
I have used this to my advantage as my GP and my endocrinologist both were willing to write me an exemption note. So I did get an extension on my dissertation. However I am hoping to be recovered by the May examinations as they will not be so lenient then.

90

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
Hows the recovery going Sing? Im interested in how how you’ve got on and what you decided to do in the end.[/quote]

Hi MG!
Well as i’ve mentioned, im still in Shit Street.
What I have decided to do now, I am using high blasts of hCG (1000iu+ EOD) to see if that can restart me. I know that this board is against hCG in PCT but I suppose its my last ditch attempt to recover so why not. Im using adex with it as i’ve read KSman recommended it. I am also using a SERM to attempt to continue the LH signal.
As the Triptorelin didnt work I figure I might aswell die fighting and try everything and anything before thinking about TRT. [/quote]

A few points.

Using arimidex will help keep estrogen under control with exogenous test in the system, it’ll also raise your natural test when it kicks in. The flipside to that is you wont know its helped since killing off your estrogen enough to raise testosterone will kill your sex drive regardless and make you feel like crap. You will also get an estrogen rebound when coming off the AI. If you are using nolvadex, the two interact to reduce blood levels of either drug leaving a pretty shitty mess for recovery if you ask me. You are also dosing your HCG too high.

Drop the clomid and the arimidex, stick with the nolva and run the HCG at 300iu shot daily for no more than 30 days. Get bloodwork done during the HCG to see if your test is coming back online. Then taper off the nolva over a month or two after you drop the HCG to allow your estrogen time to settle down. I would have shot the trip during this period, if at all.

I mean this in the nicest way, but I dont think you really planned your PCT that well, you need to plan it out and stick with the plan, and have a plan B so you know what your doing if you run into trouble. Dont panic and dont start thinking TRT is your only option.
[/quote]

I thought I had the PCT covered, it was very aggressive doseage-wise and should have been enough to elicit a HPTA response.
What you recommend on the hCG I have tried last week with absolutely no difference in testicular volume. A week of 300iu ED should have triggered some sort of a response.
The reason why I added the adex in was because of the dose of hCG I am using currently, as what I understand is it will raise testicular aromatase leading to high oestrogen which will obviously be detrimental to HPTA recovery. I also dropped the nolva and picked up clomid due to the mentioned interaction with adex. [/quote]

With a 300 iu dose, a week is not long enough to see a significant change in testicular volume, not from my experience, but then again my nuts dont seem to change much at all even after being on for freaking ages.

I guess running the clomid instead of nolva for the arimidex is a good idea, although clomid can make you feel like shit too. The bloodwork does explain whats going on though, your testes are not the problem. The only thing you can do here is stay on a serm, or assume your trip was bunk and try and get some of the real thing. Im a bit wary of buying trip form research chem sites, id rather get the brand name stuff and dilute it myself.

I would personally just wait it out on a serm, get some GHRP to help hold onto those gains, its probably going to be hell for a while but you will recover eventually as you found out last time. I think also I would seriously consider laying off the gear for a long time and in future just doing two weekers.[/quote]

Hmmm. I suppose I can wait out on the SERM as you are suggesting although I have been on a SERM since I came off around 6 weeks ago.
I agree that clomid does make you feel like shit and I have experimented with the dose and I feel ok-ish at 75mg/d.
To be honest I would rather just wait it out then to attempt another Trip shot, I too agree that buying of research chem sites is dodgey especially with something like Trip. Will not be doing that again. And I shall heed your advice and stay off for a very long time.

91

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
At this point I honestly think your recovery would have been better with a standard 4 week run of a SERM at a regular dosage…

Going back through the pages I just see a confusing blur of ridiculously high SERM usage concurrent with ADex and HCG in sporadic bursts. Throw Tripto into the mix to make it just a pure fucking Endocrinological massacre.

Please please please just run a SERM -EXCLUSIVELY-(<-- read carefully) for 4 weeks, and re-evaluate your position then. By using HCG this whole time you have effectively turned a planned 6 week cycle into 13+ weeks of suppression. I know its hard to be objective when your fearing for your health, but you must understand the need to avoid HPTA suppression above all else.

-PTD

[/quote]

I dont understand why you think I would have recovered from a standard 4-week SERM run as I have already tried a 6-week SERM run to no avail.
I do understand the need to avoid HPTA suppression at this point, I thought the adex would take care of the excess oestrogen production from the hCG shots.
In all fairness I AM feeling abit better after all these hCG shots, but as you say I may rebound once I come off. I dont know how the hCG is working though as I have not noticed an increase in testicular volume.
I will continue on the SERM route as you suggest but I have a strong feeling it will not work for me (from past experience).

92

I’ve done a bit of research on effectiveness of AI’s while combined with HCG, and it seems to do very little in way of combating estrogen. The HCG tends to aromatize directly in and around the testicles, while the AI has particular affinity for breast tissue and other “fatty” tissues. This could also explain why a lot of guys we’re seeing in the TRT forum have little to no success with AI only therapy in terms of symptom improvement (recommended when guys have lowish T and highish E2, but sub-clinical so can’t get exogenous T).

We do see an increase in Total T production from AI mono-therapy though, so I suppose it does have some sort of HPTA feedback to increase pituitary output of LH/FSH, but I’m not sure how this reacts when HCG and SERM are haphazardly thrown into the mix.

To be honest, I’ve never seen anyone be recommended use of HCG, AI, and SERM all at once when attempting a restart or recovery…there is probably a good reason for this (doesn’t work)…your case seems to be no different.

94

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I’ve done a bit of research on effectiveness of AI’s while combined with HCG, and it seems to do very little in way of combating estrogen. The HCG tends to aromatize directly in and around the testicles, while the AI has particular affinity for breast tissue and other “fatty” tissues. This could also explain why a lot of guys we’re seeing in the TRT forum have little to no success with AI only therapy in terms of symptom improvement (recommended when guys have lowish T and highish E2, but sub-clinical so can’t get exogenous T).

We do see an increase in Total T production from AI mono-therapy though, so I suppose it does have some sort of HPTA feedback to increase pituitary output of LH/FSH, but I’m not sure how this reacts when HCG and SERM are haphazardly thrown into the mix.

To be honest, I’ve never seen anyone be recommended use of HCG, AI, and SERM all at once when attempting a restart or recovery…there is probably a good reason for this (doesn’t work)…your case seems to be no different.[/quote]

This is what I also understood from my research, that hCG raises testicular aromatase expression hence an increase in aromatisation at the testicular level.
However I was not sure as to wether the adex could exert its effects in the testes or not.

95

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
Hows the recovery going Sing? Im interested in how how you’ve got on and what you decided to do in the end.[/quote]

Hi MG!
Well as i’ve mentioned, im still in Shit Street.
What I have decided to do now, I am using high blasts of hCG (1000iu+ EOD) to see if that can restart me. I know that this board is against hCG in PCT but I suppose its my last ditch attempt to recover so why not. Im using adex with it as i’ve read KSman recommended it. I am also using a SERM to attempt to continue the LH signal.
As the Triptorelin didnt work I figure I might aswell die fighting and try everything and anything before thinking about TRT. [/quote]

So what did the bloodwork reveal?

I assume you’ve had results BEFORE you decided to shoot loads of HCG?

BBB[/quote]

LH 0.2 (1.5-5.6)
FSH 0.1 (1.4-4.8)
Test 6 (14-32)
Estradiol 32 (28-67)
Prolactin 70 (56-229)

Yes I had bloods before I started the hCG.[/quote]

Good man. And you know the triptorelin did zilch because… (sorry if this has been answered; I want to be thorough).

Did you get the trip from SRC or was it elsewhere?

BBB[/quote]

I dont have bloodwork to back up the Trip being bunk but I assumed from the fact that after 3 weeks I felt no different if not worse.
Im not sure what SRC stands for, but I got the Trip off an american website for research chemicals.

96

As for the high SERM use (for PCT), I suggested that based on my own experiences of a more ‘aggressive’ SERM PCT being more effective than a standard/mild one. I did NOT suggest any HCG or Adex to aid recovery.

97

[quote]buddaboy wrote:
As for the high SERM use (for PCT), I suggested that based on my own experiences of a more ‘aggressive’ SERM PCT being more effective than a standard/mild one. I did NOT suggest any HCG or Adex to aid recovery.[/quote]

I did not say that the hCG or adex was your suggestion. And I didnt use them concurrently (hCG alongside aggressive PCT). I finished the aggressive PCT to no avail, THEN attempted Trip, then attempted hCG and adex.

98

Just received results from my second blood test which was around 5 weeks post-cycle.

Serum Testosterone 4.29 nmol/L (6.1-27.1)
Serum LH 4.9 u/L (1.2-8.6)
Serum FSH 4.2 u/L (0.0-19.0)
Serum Oestradiol 87 pmol/L (73-275)

To me it seems as though the SERMS did the trick to increase LH but the testes dont seem to be responding to the LH signal. I asked the doc to compare the testosterone levels between this and the previous (posted above) as the ranges were different. Testosterone levels were the same and did not increase.