Guys - for all of you obsessively chasing only e2 - learn about e1 (estrone). What is estrone you ask? Simply put it’s a reserve for e2. When your body decides it wants more e2, it can pull e1 back to e2. Also understand the half life of e2 is about three hours. A blood test for simply finding e2 is super misleading. I’ve seen guys with mid 20 e2 and 150 e1. So the massive fluctuations you see aren’t likely AI dosing issues - it’s your body deciding to find homeostasis by swapping e1 back to e2. Use drugs carefully. Your body will always find a way to create a correct ratio of test to estrogen, and that happens in many ways. A lot of you complaining about high e2 symptoms likely have neurotransmitter issues from testosterone use as well. Too much to go into at this point but more to follow. I’ll share more after the next seminar in June.
Quick def -
Estrone is an estrogen, specifically an agonist of the estrogen receptors ERα and ERβ.[1][8] It is a far less potent estrogen than is estradiol, and as such is a relatively weak estrogen.[1][8] According to one in vitro study, the relative binding affinity of estrone for the human ERα and ERβ was 4% and 3.5% of that estradiol, respectively, and the relative transactivational capacity of estrone at the ERα and ERβ was 2.6% and 4.3% of that of estradiol, respectively.[8] In accordance, the estrogenic activity of estrone has been reported to be approximately 4% of that of estradiol.[1] In relation to the fact that estrone can be metabolized into estradiol, most of its potency in vivo is actually due to conversion into estradiol.[1]
This is very common. Find a solid testosterone dose that gets you high normal. Your body will always find it’s homeostais point. Usually you won’t require any additional meds with it
Yes. Quite actually. Really intelligent guy. He’s of the thought that high estrogen is only harmful in men when testosterone is low. Which is what my practice has found over and over again. All this bs with chasing estradiol down is so stupid in the face of high testosterone.
@highpull@anon10230041 Because most people don’t actually want to spend the time educating themselves and watching even a short video - you can skip to 22 min in for the benefits of e2 on men but really skip to 42 min in to see recent studies showing what happens when you lower e2. And just like this doc, in our practice we like our men to have e2 between 70-100 like they did when they were youthful.
But then again who wants healthy bones, cholesterol, prostate, memory and sex drive? It’s hard as a physician to sit back and listen to the absolute crap that gets thrown around this place as fact.
First off, I really appreciate you participating in this forum. There is a huge emphasis on this site to chase an E2 number, to the point potential meaningful conversations get shut down. Pointing people to stickies is a great resource, but I believe we all win when we can discuss different points of view. You add value, and I appreciate it.
However, In the past I’ve experienced what I thought were high E2 symptoms when E2 approached ~40. No libido, problems with erections, night sweats, oily skin, back acne etc. This would happen anytime I exceed 100mg of Test, and especially bad when I approached 150mg of Test.
Are these symptoms actually due to too much test and to low E2? Seems like a lot of guys experience similar symptoms and jump to straight to AI’s. Now that I think about it, I guess a lot of guys have negative symptoms regardless, which are probably due to a poor protocol.
Is the ultimate goal to lower test through an individualized dose? Do negative symptoms eventually clear up on their own, just need to give your body time to adjust? So much to think about, so much to learn.
You seem to be implying that there is a control mechanism and a feedback loop. Is there any hard evidence for “body deciding to find homeostasis”, “body will always find a way to create a correct ratio of test to estrogen”? Your attributions do not seem conducive to deeper understanding or anything that can be used to improve care and QOL.
None of that seems to have any connection to estrogen binding affinities. So why included?
If one is going to manage FT–>E2, E2 labs are the best lab feedback for E2 management. Are there other aspects of estrogen metabolism? Yes. That is all a deeper level than most doctors ever consider and thus is basically out of reach and more than we can manage in a forum for an individual.
Please post practical advice on how to better manage estrogens with the objective to improve/optimize mood, libido, sexual function, energy etc. Otherwise your statements are not actionable and create confusion.
It’s pretty easy. Stop chasing a range of e2 that isn’t real. High estrogen in the face of low testosterone is bad. High test and commensurately high estrogen are good. Ideas of keeping e2 in a low range are proven over and over to be hurtful, not helpful. My professional advice with my patients is to go off feelings and never to assume estrogen to blame. You should watch the video I posted. Between that doctors ocer 150k patients he’s worked with over 20 years, the other 85k in the group we worked with at mayo, and my own measly 25k plus over the last six years, I’ve seen enough to know what’s real and what’s healthy for my patients. Period end statement. Estrogen on TRT has zero need to be kept at the low end range you guys shoot for. But you take drugs to lower the hormone responsible for lipid health, bone health, coagulation cascade, libido, nitric oxide etc etc. what you blame on high e2 symptoms are likely the result of side effects from other drugs, impaired neurotransmitters and cortisol. All the studies on men showing issues with high estrogen are in samples of men with LOW testosterone
