[quote]zecarlo wrote:
The problem with religious people is that they equate evolution and cell evolution with atheism when they don’t necessarily deny the existence of God. The Catholic Church has accepted evolution. [/quote]
I don’t, I think micro evolution is 100% true and I don’t have a problem with the idea that God is the catalyst behind atoms forming cells at random.
I just want to know how.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
you’re an atheistic asslick who believes that something can come from nothing. [/quote]
What did God come from? [/quote]
By definition, God cannot come from anything. Something caused cannot be uncaused, therefore if ‘God’ came from something ‘He’ wouldn’t be God. Feel free to start a thread about the existence of God if you wish, this is not the place for it. It will be a massive hijack of the thread about abortion.[/quote]
But you brought up God. [/quote]
Well, to be fair, it was actually our Australian friend that brought God up. [/quote]
Every anti-abortion post has God present. [/quote]
No they don’t. Not a single one of my posts has anything to do with God. At all.
Edit: Sentence structure. [/quote]
Are you saying that your position is not influenced at all by your religious beliefs? [/quote]
Is yours?[/quote]
It is pretty tough for anyone to escape their own world view. It colors everything. That is why studies are conducted “double blind.” Everybody is a potential victim of expectation/confirmation bias.
(this is not directed at pat per se, I’m just commenting on the issue).
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
The problem with religious people is that they equate evolution and cell evolution with atheism when they don’t necessarily deny the existence of God. The Catholic Church has accepted evolution. [/quote]
I don’t, I think micro evolution is 100% true and I don’t have a problem with the idea that God is the catalyst behind atoms forming cells at random.
I just want to know how.[/quote]
All evolution is microevolution, in that all life is made up of cells.
Evolution happens first at a cellular level, which over time manifests itself at the macro level.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Whatever it takes to explain how all cells come from previously existing cells except the first one. Seems like a pretty big whole to me.
Are molecules still evolving into cells? [/quote]
How is it a big hole? How do we have water (H2O)? The idea that atoms can form molecules is a stretch? What are cells made of? [/quote]
No, the stretch is:
All cells come from previously existing cells
The first cells came from_______?
Obviously at a very basic level everything is made of molecules. Why do we not see (according to Varq’s link it is, but I haven’t gotten there yet) cell formation occurring naturally (and at random) now? [/quote]
Define “naturally and at random”.
Obviously, the conditions under which the first prokaryotic cells were formed no longer exists on this planet. Thank goodness, because we wouldn’t be able to survive. But we can create those conditions, and yes, similar processes to the ones we hypothesize were responsible for the formation of cells does occur.
Is it happening now? Probably, on planets with similar geological conditions as our own 7 billion years ago. Why not?
Can we observe it happening? Not without going to those planets, but we can do the next best thing, which is recreate the environment in the lab.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
The problem with religious people is that they equate evolution and cell evolution with atheism when they don’t necessarily deny the existence of God. The Catholic Church has accepted evolution. [/quote]
I don’t, I think micro evolution is 100% true and I don’t have a problem with the idea that God is the catalyst behind atoms forming cells at random.
I just want to know how.[/quote]
All evolution is microevolution, in that all life is made up of cells.
Evolution happens first at a cellular level, which over time manifests itself at the macro level.
[/quote]
Perhaps what I should of said is, I 100% agree that evolution via natural selection occurs at the micro level (manifesting ultimately in the macro), but I would like to better understand the theories behind micro evolution pre-first cell, which again I agree does not preclude the existence of God.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
The problem with religious people is that they equate evolution and cell evolution with atheism when they don’t necessarily deny the existence of God. The Catholic Church has accepted evolution. [/quote]
I don’t, I think micro evolution is 100% true and I don’t have a problem with the idea that God is the catalyst behind atoms forming cells at random.
I just want to know how.[/quote]
All evolution is microevolution, in that all life is made up of cells.
Evolution happens first at a cellular level, which over time manifests itself at the macro level.
[/quote]
Perhaps what I should of said is, I 100% agree that evolution via natural selection occurs at the micro level (manifesting ultimately in the macro), but I would like to better understand the theories behind micro evolution pre-first cell, which again I agree does not preclude the existence of God. [/quote]
Before the first cell there was no evolution.
Evolution is what happens when cells start replicating over many generations.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Define “naturally and at random”.
[/quote]
Naturally: Occuring in nature, not in a petri dish or vaccum.
Random: Random… As in by chance not by deliberate design.
To get certain conditions you need a lab, I understand that. My main question is why aren’t cells evolving right now outside of a lab? Are not all the conditions present? What am I missing?
Like I said, my knowledge is basic on this topic at best, but all of these elements still exist today. Why aren’t cells randomly (by chance) evolving in nature (outside of a lab or vacumm). Surely this should happen still, correct?
I don’t understand why it isn’t still happening here.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
The problem with religious people is that they equate evolution and cell evolution with atheism when they don’t necessarily deny the existence of God. The Catholic Church has accepted evolution. [/quote]
I don’t, I think micro evolution is 100% true and I don’t have a problem with the idea that God is the catalyst behind atoms forming cells at random.
I just want to know how.[/quote]
All evolution is microevolution, in that all life is made up of cells.
Evolution happens first at a cellular level, which over time manifests itself at the macro level.
[/quote]
Perhaps what I should of said is, I 100% agree that evolution via natural selection occurs at the micro level (manifesting ultimately in the macro), but I would like to better understand the theories behind micro evolution pre-first cell, which again I agree does not preclude the existence of God. [/quote]
Before the first cell there was no evolution.
Evolution is what happens when cells start replicating over many generations. [/quote]
There had to be evolution, or something, prior to the first cells. Otherwise, base elements never would have combined to become cells, right? What forced this change? Why was H20 not happy just being water(aside from the fact water likely doesn’t get happy).
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
God damnit, smh, how is anybody supposed to push an antiabortion agenda around here if you keep showing up with your “facts”?
Local correlativity has to equal general causality, because…because… because Planned Parenthood makes teen girls into whores and kills babies and stuff.
Why do you support teen whoremongering and baby-killing? What are you, some kinda atheist?
*** Planned Parenthood by design gives away the cheapest condoms possible and birth control with the lowest dosage possible in order to drum up business. Without them of course pregnancy rates would drop. Their business is killing children.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
The problem with religious people is that they equate evolution and cell evolution with atheism when they don’t necessarily deny the existence of God. The Catholic Church has accepted evolution. [/quote]
I don’t, I think micro evolution is 100% true and I don’t have a problem with the idea that God is the catalyst behind atoms forming cells at random.
I just want to know how.[/quote]
All evolution is microevolution, in that all life is made up of cells.
Evolution happens first at a cellular level, which over time manifests itself at the macro level.
[/quote]
Perhaps what I should of said is, I 100% agree that evolution via natural selection occurs at the micro level (manifesting ultimately in the macro), but I would like to better understand the theories behind micro evolution pre-first cell, which again I agree does not preclude the existence of God. [/quote]
Before the first cell there was no evolution.
Evolution is what happens when cells start replicating over many generations. [/quote]
There had to be evolution, or something, prior to the first cells. Otherwise, base elements never would have combined to become cells, right? What forced this change? Why was H20 not happy just being water(aside from the fact water likely doesn’t get happy). [/quote]
No. Evolution only happens when there is life.
No cells, no life.
There is no life before conception, right?
We don’t talk about the sperm “not being happy being sperm”. They are in the right place at the right time: little packets of DNA that happen to converge on another packet of DNA called the ovum.
If the conditions are not perfect (in terms of location of the ovum, the pH balance of the environment, etc.), conception will not occur.
[quote]Krinks wrote:
*** Planned Parenthood by design gives away the cheapest condoms possible and birth control with the lowest dosage possible in order to drum up business. Without them of course pregnancy rates would drop. Their business is killing children. [/quote]
Thank you for your comment.
Try to catch up.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
The problem with religious people is that they equate evolution and cell evolution with atheism when they don’t necessarily deny the existence of God. The Catholic Church has accepted evolution. [/quote]
I don’t, I think micro evolution is 100% true and I don’t have a problem with the idea that God is the catalyst behind atoms forming cells at random.
I just want to know how.[/quote]
All evolution is microevolution, in that all life is made up of cells.
Evolution happens first at a cellular level, which over time manifests itself at the macro level.
[/quote]
Perhaps what I should of said is, I 100% agree that evolution via natural selection occurs at the micro level (manifesting ultimately in the macro), but I would like to better understand the theories behind micro evolution pre-first cell, which again I agree does not preclude the existence of God. [/quote]
Before the first cell there was no evolution.
Evolution is what happens when cells start replicating over many generations. [/quote]
There had to be evolution, or something, prior to the first cells. Otherwise, base elements never would have combined to become cells, right? What forced this change? Why was H20 not happy just being water(aside from the fact water likely doesn’t get happy). [/quote]
No. Evolution only happens when there is life.
No cells, no life.
There is no life before conception, right?
We don’t talk about the sperm “not being happy being sperm”. They are in the right place at the right time: little packets of DNA that happen to converge on another packet of DNA called the ovum.
If the conditions are not perfect (in terms of location of the ovum, the pH balance of the environment, etc.), conception will not occur.
[/quote]
Ah full circle, very nice.
So are you saing the first cells were simply a circumstance of a random encounter? That nothing forced basic elements to become cells?
Again, why do those random encounters not happen today? Why are cells not being formed in nature, on this planet, today?
[quote]cryogen wrote:
The employer has a responsibility to make sure that if they have agreed to look after the health of their employees, [/quote]
um, no. This isn’t true in the context of paying for health insurance that does or does not offer birth control.
The employer has a responsibility to provide safe working conditions for the employees as best they can. (Underwater welders aren’t as safe as AP clerks, etc.) Outside of the workplace health issues are a matter that is of zero concern to the employer.
Employer’s paying a portion of health insurance is simply a fringe benefit that occurs because the vast majority of the population prefers it to that cash in their paycheck. And up until recently was 100% voluntary. Now however, because of burdensome laws and regulations, certain companies are required to provide health coverage that meets certain standards.
It is all really moot however, because the employee isn’t a slave and can work for a company who’s culture is more in line with their own. Private enterprises are under no obligation to change firm policy or culture to please at will employees.
USMC: find me a place on this planet where the following conditions are present:
Atmosphere composed entirely of hydrogen, methane, ammonia carbon dioxide and nitrogen, but no oxygen.
No bacterial life anywhere.
Constant lightning storms, volcanic eruptions, and extremely high levels of ultraviolet radiation.
A tidal pool where elemental compounds have been collecting without being oxidized (no oxygen) or decayed (no bacteria) for billions of years.
You find me that place, and I will practically guarantee that you will find abiotic compounds forming cells.
But you might have to watch that pool for a million years or so.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
USMC: find me a place on this planet where the following conditions are present:
Atmosphere composed entirely of hydrogen, methane, ammonia carbon dioxide and nitrogen, but no oxygen.
No bacterial life anywhere.
Constant lightning storms, volcanic eruptions, and extremely high levels of ultraviolet radiation.
A tidal pool where elemental compounds have been collecting without being oxidized (no oxygen) or decayed (no bacteria) for billions of years.
You find me that place, and I will practically guarantee that you will find abiotic compounds forming cells.
But you might have to watch that pool for a million years or so.
[/quote]
Gotcha…
[quote]kpsnap wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Correction: a fact that am stating to illustrate the futility of arguing back and forth whether or not a zygote is a “person” or a “child” when, in the time it took the Pitt ‘n’ Pat comedy duo to say “is not!” “is too!” “nuh uh!” “your stoopid!” a half dozen times, tens of thousands of real, live, sentient, breathing air babies and children had died painfully of starvation, and yet I don’t see anybody starting up multiple threads decrying the outrage of this. Please, if you would be so kind, remind me of all the threads started by any of the prominent antiabortion advocates on this forum which denounce childhood starvation in Asia and Africa with the same vehemence [/quote]
My position precisely.
[/quote]
lol, yes. Some kids stave to death and it is tragic. So our response should be just to ignore the murder of other kids.
Sense? Nope, none.
[quote]cryogen wrote:
Not even close, Employers forcing their own religious idiocy upon their employees is religious persecution, and discrimination.
[/quote]
Again, no. The employee is at will, they are free to work for a company who’s culture is more in line with their own at any time.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
They are offering health care [/quote]
No, companies are offering a fringe benefit. Which amounts to the employees pay being given to an insurance company pre-tax. (IE: the employee doesn’t pay tax on that income.)
No again, the people who are enrolled in that insurance companies plan are paying for it through their premiums. The end user pays a co-pay & a premium.
In magical fairy tale land, maybe, but in reality this is nonsense.
Whether or not the employer offers a health plan with birth control has zero bearing on the employees private life, because employment is a mutually agreed upon transaction. Therefore the employee must choose to work for the company as the company must choose to employ the employee. If the employee is unhappy with the conditions of their employment they are free to work for a company that offers what they want.
Nothing mentioned here does what you describe here. The employee is free to do what they wish in the bedroom, and free to do as they please in regards to birth control. The only issue is whether or not that birth control is part of their health insurance plan.
Whether or not something is or isn’t in the plan doesn’t dictate the actions of the individual.
What about prescription drugs, should employers be forced to pay for those? Should I, I have no prescriptions and haven’t for years?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
lol, yes. Some kids stave to death and it is tragic. So our response should be just to ignore the murder of other kids.
[/quote]
Why do you view it as an either/or proposition?
One could easily state the converse:
Some kids are aborted and it is tragic. So our response should be just to ignore the starvation of other kids.
Makes just as much (or little) sense.
If all human life is equivalent, no matter how far developed it is and wherever on the planet it occurs, then the kid dying of starvation in Mogadishu is at least as worthy of agitation and outrage as the first-trimester aborted fetus in Minneapolis.
I just don’t see that equivalent outrage, though. Not on this board.
