Teacher Punches Student

Off Topic
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[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

She’s an adult, a teacher at that, and instead of acting rationally she allowed the situation to escalate and punched a kid in the face. Once again, the kid acted like an ass and deserves a beating, but she was not the one to try and give it. It generally takes two for a situation to get out of control, and a 64 year old teacher should know better and handle herself as such.[/quote]

Dude come on now, she was not doing this just to dish out her own brand of vigilante justice…she was doing it because she was in a fight or flight situation which was forced upon her by this stupid kid…and she chose to fight…

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[quote]TD54 wrote:

It turned out hitting the kid didn’t provoke a response, though it most definitely could have. If a similar situation were to happen again, in my opinion, the best option for this teacher would be to go get help. And we are talking about a scrawny boy here. All the teacher has to do is go next door to one of the male teachers classrooms to get help. And you are correct in saying you don’t have enough time to weigh out all of the possible options and choose the best one. I’m not saying her decision was wrong, however, i am saying that if a situation like this were to happen again, going to get help would be a better choice. In this specific situation, going to go get help, in my opinion, would have been just as good of a solution as hitting the kid, if not better. Hitting the kid seemed to stop his threatening advances. Obviously going next door to a male teachers classroom would have as well[/quote]

Dude, you are playing Monday morning quarterback here…it is very easy to be on the internet, have some time to think about the situation, and come to your own best conclusion…but can you really fault her for her actions in the heat of a moment when her survival instincts are switched on?

And to your credit, I think you’ve already answered this question in the negative (meaning you do accept her reaction, just that it wasn’t the best one in hindsight) but if this is true, I just don’t understand how you can keep arguing the point…

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[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

To suggest that this teacher should have to leave the room because this pubescent dickhead left his seat is laughable, outrageous and out of touch with reality. She’s in charge in that room. She doesn’t have to leave that room, and she doesn’t have to assume that every little fucktard leaving his seat is going to invade her personal space in a threatening manner.

[/quote]

This is a good point that hasn’t been brought up or has not at all been thought about by those arguing to leave the room…this is HER classroom…her job duty is to maintain order in that classroom–that is sort of hard to do when you are leaving it…if the kid is acting out in the back of the classroom for an extended period of time and is not responding to verbal instructions intended to maintain order, then yeah, maybe going to get help is the right option (certainly as opposed to bum rushing the kid and attacking him)…

but the situation likely escalated pretty quickly…to the point where her only reaction was to fight or flee…and I don’t think the flee option is a very good one, as I’ve previously pointed out…

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[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

To suggest that this teacher should have to leave the room because this pubescent dickhead left his seat is laughable, outrageous and out of touch with reality. She’s in charge in that room. She doesn’t have to leave that room, and she doesn’t have to assume that every little fucktard leaving his seat is going to invade her personal space in a threatening manner.

[/quote]

This is a good point that hasn’t been brought up or has not at all been thought about by those arguing to leave the room…this is HER classroom…her job duty is to maintain order in that classroom–that is sort of hard to do when you are leaving it…if the kid is acting out in the back of the classroom for an extended period of time and is not responding to verbal instructions intended to maintain order, then yeah, maybe going to get help is the right option (certainly as opposed to bum rushing the kid and attacking him)…

but the situation likely escalated pretty quickly…to the point where her only reaction was to fight or flee…and I don’t think the flee option is a very good one, as I’ve previously pointed out…[/quote]

Yea, I was wondering about that myself. I can’t really speculate on this, but as a teacher she is responsible for ALL students in the classroom. I think it’s a stretch to say this, but could she have hit this kid because she feared for the safety of the entire class? It’s about as realistic as saying she had the option to walk away, even though I think we can all agree this is as simple as fight or flight.

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[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
…she was doing it because she was in a fight or flight situation which was forced upon her by this stupid kid…and she chose to fight…[/quote]

You know what, all the mumbo jumbo going on in this thread i honestly believe this response is the most simple and articulate response.

We all have a soft spot for the elderly and babies, some even puppies. This is the very reason i try to look at the incident and not the individuals.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
To suggest that this teacher should have to leave the room because this pubescent dickhead left his seat is laughable, outrageous and out of touch with reality. She’s in charge in that room.[/quote]

^^ Agreed…BUT… How are you able to say this then say she was acting in self defense by punching the student? If her mentality is such then clearly she was NOT intimidated by this kid. She held her ground because she was the authority of the classroom which she damn well should. However, if someone who i believe is a serious threat approaches me in an aggressive manner and i honestly felt like my life is in danger, then i’m hauling ass. I’m not standing there like hector camacho.

The fact that people keep looking at it as an elderly lady and a young kid renders their argument bias and emotional… You either think it’s ok to punch a student in the face in this situation or you don’t. Gender INDEPENDENT.

Whether or not you think the kid deserved it is irrelevant. Stop looking at this as a male kid and a female teacher. It needs to be looked at as a teacher and a student. I am not saying this woman does not have a right to defend herself, everyone does. I’m saying as a teacher she could have handled the situation better.

[quote]And yes, your gender, your size, that of the aggressor - all these things are weighed in the legal analysis. That it doesn’t make sense to you is apparent.

Is anyone around here capable of admitting when their wrong, even after it’s painfully obvious that they are?![/quote]

I’m wrong for evaluating the INCIDENT and not the participants ?

I will say this then leave this thread because it’s sinking rather quickly.

I was not raised under the American public school system. My primary and secondary school system allowed teachers to use corporal punishment. Both the schools and the parents knew about it and were all for it. We would either get beaten on the palm of our hands or on our buttocks with a yard stick or something of that sort. Even then no school or parent would ever condone a teacher punching a student in the face. This is not an elderly lady being mugged on the street, this is a school setting.

By the way my legal analysis is spot on. Not once did i say the teacher didn’t have a right to defend herself. I gave specific examples which were directed to individuals who thought beating someone up for mere verbal disrespect was just.

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[quote]TD54 wrote:

I am plenty experienced in physical confrontations. I know what you’re saying, your adrenaline is pumping and you aren’t doing much thinking when a confrontation like that occurs. It’s a very stressful situation that doesn’t leave much time for rational thought. With that said there is still a “best” decision to make in that situation. You think it’s hitting the bully in the face, I think it’s exiting the door to get help. Like you said it’s a very stressful situation in which your adrenaline is pumping like no other, so I don’t blame the teacher for making the decision she did. I just believe she made the wrong one. [/quote]

Ideally, I’ll concede that what you are saying is absolutely the best decision. But I think I can speak for the other side and say that none of us believe that is a real possibility in this situation. As in literally there was no way she could have taken that route given the time frame, and she was left with two options: fight or cower in fear, as flight had been removed from the equation.

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[quote]angus_beef wrote:

The fact that people keep looking at it as an elderly lady and a young kid renders their argument bias and emotional… You either think it’s ok to punch a student in the face in this situation or you don’t. Gender INDEPENDENT.
[/quote]

No, it doesn’t at all. It renders us aware of the dynamics of the real world, i.e. a smaller person is going to perceive this situation in a completely different light than a larger person. Thus, her reaction makes sense considering the very real threat posed by the larger, stronger student. That the law also takes this into account should indicate to you that it is not, in fact, emotional or biased to factor in such things.

And nobody here disagrees that a teacher is held to a high standard when it comes to altercations with students. What we are arguing is that all external dynamics such as the student-teacher relationship are removed in a rapidly escalating, dangerous situation such as this, ergo her response was perfectly appropriate. There is always a line when, if crossed, all bets are off, and that line was crossed here.

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LOL @ the three guys arguing the same bullshit stance for ten pages.

From what I can gather, the proper procedure should any child challenge you physically is:

-run screaming for help from the room each and every time. Let’s ignore the fact that you won’t have that job for long if every single time you get challenged by a “potential” threat you can’t handle it because schools are dropping teachers left and right to conserve funds.

-no matter the size of the teacher, that teacher should avoid any attempt to protect herself using force when affronted by a potential threat to her life…because there are doors in the room and magic buttons that call the cops in seconds.

Any I’m missing? I mean, for 64 years of age, I am sure she could have done some Matrix move like Trinity, jump in the air, freeze time, leap over the kid, gently lay him on the floor (so as not to bruise the little angel), leap for the door and contact the SWAT team that is always waiting outside in the hallway.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
LOL @ the three guys arguing the same bullshit stance for ten pages.

[/quote]

Coming from the guy that has spent more than 15 thousand posts arguing over random bullshit.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

From what I can gather, the proper procedure should any child challenge you physically is:

-run screaming for help from the room each and every time. Let’s ignore the fact that you won’t have that job for long if every single time you get challenged by a “potential” threat you can’t handle it because schools are dropping teachers left and right to conserve funds.

-no matter the size of the teacher, that teacher should avoid any attempt to protect herself using force when affronted by a potential threat to her life…because there are doors in the room and magic buttons that call the cops in seconds.

Any I’m missing? I mean, for 64 years of age, I am sure she could have done some Matrix move like Trinity, jump in the air, freeze time, leap over the kid, gently lay him on the floor (so as not to bruise the little angel), leap for the door and contact the SWAT team that is always waiting outside in the hallway.

[/quote]

I was thinking about responding to this post, but there is just such an incredibly large amount of word twisting and bullshit in it, I wouldn’t know where to begin. Arguing with you is a dead end. With others, I can definitely find a common ground or atleast agree to disagree, but with you, making a valid point or gaining an understanding of the other persons perspective would be fucking impossible, because everything anyone else has to say in disagreement with you is wrong, and everything you have to say is God’s word.

You’ll disagree with this wholeheartedly, as usual, so prove me wrong. Do me a favor and go find 3 of those 15,000 argumentative posts in which you have either admitted to being wrong, found a common ground, or atleast agreed to disagree. There has got to be atleast 3 of them out there, right?

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WhiteFlash, Seriously? You call the Doc fat, but by the looks of it, proportionally and comparatively you DO NOT look ripped either. It’s almost as if a chimp (you) is calling a gorilla (Doc) fat. Fucking laughable!

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
^^^ I suck at this. That said THEY’RE THINKING ABOUT adding metal detectors, not that they already have them. I grew up in Alief homeboy. Ollie middle school has had metal detectors since the early 90’s. I also went to CLC in 3rd ward for the last half of 8th grade and first half of 9th, and they had metal detectors as well. I’m pretty used to violence, in school and elsewhere. Still doesn’t change the fact that grandma could’ve handled that situation better.[/quote]

Genius, this isn’t about metal detectors, this is about how a kid could have any kind of weapon on them today or be a weapon themselves.

I understand that with limited thinking comes the inability to see past simple statements meant to make a point…but I can also see how by dwelling on them you can ignore the bigger picture.

Too bad that isn’t working for you.[/quote]

For a fat dentist you talk a lot of shit. Again, Ollie middle school has had metal detectors since the early 90’s. “Today” has nothing to do with kids [or people in general] being dangerous. Your “point” is trying to argue for the sake of arguing, as usual. Good luck with that.[/quote]

?

Hmm, my point is the exact same as the several people now telling you that you thinking is a tad skewed. Clearly, they are all also just arguing for the sake of arguing.

This isn’t about metal detectors…and the fact that you still seem to think it is happens to be pretty sad.

Oh, and trust me, if this is “fat”…I’m real cool with that. How about some pics of yourself for shock value, huh?

Right.[/quote]

Where in the fuck did I say this was about metal detectors? How the fuck are you this dense? You brought them up in conjunction with “todays” bad apples, and I said that schools in my old neighborhood have had them since the early 90’s. Danger has nothing to do with chronological progression. And, there’s 2 pics in my profile. One from a couple of yearsago and a recent one where I’m sub 10% bf. Knock yourself out doc.[/quote]

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
crickets
[/quote]

LOL

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She should not have punched him. With the height disparity and his body positioning a knee to the nuts would have diffused the situation much more effectively, with the added bonus that this fuckwit may never breed.

Not only was she correct in her response, this kids parents need to be slapped also.

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[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[/quote]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmALA8miQY8

lulz

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[quote]angus_beef wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
…she was doing it because she was in a fight or flight situation which was forced upon her by this stupid kid…and she chose to fight…[/quote]

You know what, all the mumbo jumbo going on in this thread i honestly believe this response is the most simple and articulate response.

We all have a soft spot for the elderly and babies, some even puppies. This is the very reason i try to look at the incident and not the individuals.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
To suggest that this teacher should have to leave the room because this pubescent dickhead left his seat is laughable, outrageous and out of touch with reality. She’s in charge in that room.[/quote]

^^ Agreed…BUT… How are you able to say this then say she was acting in self defense by punching the student? If her mentality is such then clearly she was NOT intimidated by this kid. She held her ground because she was the authority of the classroom which she damn well should. However, if someone who i believe is a serious threat approaches me in an aggressive manner and i honestly felt like my life is in danger, then i’m hauling ass. I’m not standing there like hector camacho.

The fact that people keep looking at it as an elderly lady and a young kid renders their argument bias and emotional… You either think it’s ok to punch a student in the face in this situation or you don’t. Gender INDEPENDENT.

Whether or not you think the kid deserved it is irrelevant. Stop looking at this as a male kid and a female teacher. It needs to be looked at as a teacher and a student. I am not saying this woman does not have a right to defend herself, everyone does. I’m saying as a teacher she could have handled the situation better.

[quote]And yes, your gender, your size, that of the aggressor - all these things are weighed in the legal analysis. That it doesn’t make sense to you is apparent.

Is anyone around here capable of admitting when their wrong, even after it’s painfully obvious that they are?![/quote]

I’m wrong for evaluating the INCIDENT and not the participants ?

I will say this then leave this thread because it’s sinking rather quickly.

I was not raised under the American public school system. My primary and secondary school system allowed teachers to use corporal punishment. Both the schools and the parents knew about it and were all for it. We would either get beaten on the palm of our hands or on our buttocks with a yard stick or something of that sort. Even then no school or parent would ever condone a teacher punching a student in the face. This is not an elderly lady being mugged on the street, this is a school setting.

By the way my legal analysis is spot on. Not once did i say the teacher didn’t have a right to defend herself. I gave specific examples which were directed to individuals who thought beating someone up for mere verbal disrespect was just.[/quote]

No, your legal analysis, as written, is NOT “spot on”. And you don’t have to trust me, the prosecutor has spoken for the legal analysis. I’m just telling you generally what is …get this…BECAUSE I KNOW. I have perfectly familiar with use of force laws.

She is generally not required under the law to retreat or leave (unless she had and used a gun), even if she could.
This has NOTHING to do with the “American school system” and everything to do with American law.
She was much smaller, older and any assault could have resulted in serious injury.
Given the above, she was perfectly justified to reasonable fear for her safety.
Based on that fear, she was within her legal right to attempt to physically extinguish that danger.
Her punching the student, while not the course you would have chosen, was perfectly legal, and was not excessive. The assault ceased when he backed off - in other words, IT WORKED.

If we continue your “spot on legal analysis” to its logical conclusion, we must then apply it to victims of rape and other violent crime. Why did you fight back? Why didn’t you just run away? Why were you wearing that short skirt?

No one here is unduly influenced by sympathy for the elderly, it’s about their respective sizes and potential for injury. It’s about her reasonable fear and what’s she’s legally permitted to do under the law.

I’d say you, and others arguing against the teacher, are unduly influenced by the school setting. The school setting does not change the legal analysis or their respective obligations. She does not lose rights because she’s in a school or a teacher.

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[quote]angus_beef wrote:

The fact that people keep looking at it as an elderly lady and a young kid renders their argument bias and emotional… You either think it’s ok to punch a student in the face in this situation or you don’t. Gender INDEPENDENT.

.[/quote]

And here is but one critical area where you are ABSOLUTELY WRONG. Their respective gender, size and age go DIRECTLY to the analysis whether her fear for her safety was REASONABLE. For her to fear for her safety is the 2nd critical point is the analysis. The first is, was there a threat.

Someone walking up to you aggressively, speaking aggressively and then looming over you is absolutely, indisputably a threat display. That she reasonably feared for her safety is entirely dependent upon gender, size, age, etc. because it goes to risk of serious injury.

Now, can I with my size, fighting skill, etc., get away with clocking the average 16 year old in the face under the same scenario? Probably not. But what if the kid is my size or better, talking aggressively, and rushing toward me? Yup, I get to clock that fucktard. If he’s not that big, do I have to wait for him to hit me? No! I can shove him back and if he comes again, I can put him on his ass. Legally.

I don’t have to run from my classroom, and the lady in the OP doesn’t either. It’s not reasonable to assume that every time so little anti-social prick leaves his seat and is being disruptive, that it’s going to result in some threatened assault.

YOU. ARE. WRONG.

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OK now first of all… do you guys have ANY IDEA how hard it was to read through all of this thread without responding 6 pages ago!!! lol

So far this is what I can remember that I was going to say:

  1. TSpoons is an immature person/troll/idiot.

  2. MOST schools in the US DO NOT have metal detectors. A lot? Yes most definitely… but “most” as in, the majority of schools, no.

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
she was not doing this just to dish out her own brand of vigilante justice…she was doing it because she was in a fight or flight situation which was forced upon her by this stupid kid…and she chose to fight…[/quote]

^^This statement basically sums up this whole thing. Was what she did the “best way” to handle the situation? Maybe not… but when you are put in a situation where you genuinely feel threatened, you honestly do not know exactly how you will react.

I doubt the teacher was planning that punch… She got really scared (which is visually obvious by her response and voice inflection) and responded to a much larger, threatening individual by throwing a couple haymakers. Teacher or not… I dont have a problem with what she did. Its not like she knocked him down and then leapt on him for some ground n pound lol

Im glad the criminal chargers were dropped.