Tax the Rich!

[Ryan_P_McCarter]

bigflamer wrote:Of course there’s those that can, they’re called criminals…

So you’re admitting an incapacity to rationally consider an action and then…you berate for me for not thinking rationally. Bravo.

You’ve demonstrated nothing but the foolishness of your ideas.

In what way? I have corrected numerous fallacies on this board and supplied many facts that you have ignored. You are too much of a coward to consider anything that clashes with your world view, so you continue to dogmatically assert that you are correct, with no backing. That’s not foolishness on my part.

Individual freedom, rights to one’s own property, drive to succeed (incentive), etc.; all elements of human nature which are not supported by socialism.

First of all, you have shown repeatedly that you have no idea what socialism entails (for if you did, you would know that these three, among others, are all indeed supported by socialism, more effectively than by capitalism), as you continually argue against policies that no socialist supports. Even your avatar betrays, not only your ignorance, but also your steadfast refusal to entertain any notion that makes you uncomfortable. You know nothing about Marxism (nor economics, but I digress…), yet you call Obama a Marxist. But if I were to call you a fascist, or make blatantly erroneous claims about the ideals of libertarians, I would receive an irate response highlighting my ignorance. This is otherwise known as hypocrisy.

Second of all, you make the typical anachronistic capitalist mistake of attempting to naturalize capitalistic behavior, which in some respects has been representative of human behavior for only a small fractions of man’s history, and in other respects not at all. In other words, your conception of human nature is almost entirely incorrect. Even if it were not, you make the assumption that capitalism is in tune with these behaviors, when it is so only some of the time.

I understand that trading in errors for truth would be uncomfortable, this would explain why you have chosen not to do it.

Yes, I’m sure that I, with my unpopular opinions, who corrects your errors at every turn, am less informed and less thoughtful than those great thinkers in the Tea Party. I’m sure that you, always holding the easy, comfortable opinion, are much smarter than me.

Don’t kid yourself.

I also understand that you are a student, and therefore are functioning with a very limited understanding of the real world. Go out into the world after you get your education, work hard and build up some wealth, have a family and be tasked with the responsibility of supporting and providing for it, then you will have a larger understanding of the world. Better yet, start a successful business and provide some jobs in your community. That’s the best way I know of to “spread the wealth”.

Having noted that you don’t know the first thing about socialism, Marxism, or my opinions, and are simply spitting out a knee-jerk response to the image of socialism that Republicans have burned into your brain, the rest of your argument falls to the ground.

I will point out the fact that it is not my goal to “spread the wealth.” I want people to be able to provide for themselves, not merely to give them scraps off the table of the wealthy.

[Dustin]

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

bigflamer wrote:Of course there’s those that can, they’re called criminals…

So you’re admitting an incapacity to rationally consider an action and then…you berate for me for not thinking rationally. Bravo.

[/quote]

But they are criminals. If they take your money from you without your consent, it is theft.

Has nothing to do with being emotional or rational, it’s called reality.

[Ryan_P_McCarter]

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

bigflamer wrote:Of course there’s those that can, they’re called criminals…

So you’re admitting an incapacity to rationally consider an action and then…you berate for me for not thinking rationally. Bravo.

[/quote]

But they are criminals. If they take your money from you without your consent, it is theft.

Has nothing to do with being emotional or rational, it’s called reality.[/quote]

Oh, it has everything to do with emotion, as does the rest of the staunch defense of capitalism on this site. This may come as a shock to you, but your personal ethical code is not the only one out there, and in this instance, it’s not the one that carries the day. Taxation is the law, and so the government’s appropriation of tax dollars is completely legal. Theft is not what you say it is, it’s what the law says it is.

Now, this is not to make a comment on it one way or the other, just to state the facts. You don’t have to like it.

[Dustin]

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

bigflamer wrote:Of course there’s those that can, they’re called criminals…

So you’re admitting an incapacity to rationally consider an action and then…you berate for me for not thinking rationally. Bravo.

[/quote]

But they are criminals. If they take your money from you without your consent, it is theft.

Has nothing to do with being emotional or rational, it’s called reality.[/quote]

Oh, it has everything to do with emotion, as does the rest of the staunch defense of capitalism on this site. This may come as a shock to you, but your personal ethical code is not the only one out there, and in this instance, it’s not the one that carries the day. Taxation is the law, and so the government’s appropriation of tax dollars is completely legal. Theft is not what you say it is, it’s what the law says it is.

Now, this is not to make a comment on it one way or the other, just to state the facts. You don’t have to like it.
[/quote]

Thanks for clearing all this up for me. Until you made these most astute observations, I was under the impression that the money I made was my own.

My mistake.

[ZEB]

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

pushharder wrote:No, even though the government took it, legally or illegally, it is still spending the taxpayer’s money. You have forgotten we live in a republic, I guess. You must think this is a monarchy or dictatorship.

Once they take it, it’s their money.
[/quote]

Now how can anyone argue with that logic? [/quote]

I wonder if its mine again if I take it right back?

[/quote]

It’s interesting to the person I have never seen any lefty be able to defend liberalism when really pushed, Ryan is no exception. It just gets sillier and sillier the more you push them.

[Ryan_P_McCarter]

[quote]ZEB wrote:It’s interesting to the person I have never seen any lefty be able to defend liberalism when really pushed, Ryan is no exception. It just gets sillier and sillier the more you push them.
[/quote]

I have no interest in defending liberalism, because I am not a liberal.

You should have an interest in defending liberalism, though.

[bigflamer]

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

bigflamer wrote:Of course there’s those that can, they’re called criminals…

So you’re admitting an incapacity to rationally consider an action and then…you berate for me for not thinking rationally. Bravo.

You’ve demonstrated nothing but the foolishness of your ideas.

In what way? I have corrected numerous fallacies on this board and supplied many facts that you have ignored. You are too much of a coward to consider anything that clashes with your world view, so you continue to dogmatically assert that you are correct, with no backing. That’s not foolishness on my part.

Individual freedom, rights to one’s own property, drive to succeed (incentive), etc.; all elements of human nature which are not supported by socialism.

First of all, you have shown repeatedly that you have no idea what socialism entails (for if you did, you would know that these three, among others, are all indeed supported by socialism, more effectively than by capitalism), as you continually argue against policies that no socialist supports. Even your avatar betrays, not only your ignorance, but also your steadfast refusal to entertain any notion that makes you uncomfortable. You know nothing about Marxism (nor economics, but I digress…), yet you call Obama a Marxist. But if I were to call you a fascist, or make blatantly erroneous claims about the ideals of libertarians, I would receive an irate response highlighting my ignorance. This is otherwise known as hypocrisy.

Second of all, you make the typical anachronistic capitalist mistake of attempting to naturalize capitalistic behavior, which in some respects has been representative of human behavior for only a small fractions of man’s history, and in other respects not at all. In other words, your conception of human nature is almost entirely incorrect. Even if it were not, you make the assumption that capitalism is in tune with these behaviors, when it is so only some of the time.

I understand that trading in errors for truth would be uncomfortable, this would explain why you have chosen not to do it.

Yes, I’m sure that I, with my unpopular opinions, who corrects your errors at every turn, am less informed and less thoughtful than those great thinkers in the Tea Party. I’m sure that you, always holding the easy, comfortable opinion, are much smarter than me.

Don’t kid yourself.

I also understand that you are a student, and therefore are functioning with a very limited understanding of the real world. Go out into the world after you get your education, work hard and build up some wealth, have a family and be tasked with the responsibility of supporting and providing for it, then you will have a larger understanding of the world. Better yet, start a successful business and provide some jobs in your community. That’s the best way I know of to “spread the wealth”.

Having noted that you don’t know the first thing about socialism, Marxism, or my opinions, and are simply spitting out a knee-jerk response to the image of socialism that Republicans have burned into your brain, the rest of your argument falls to the ground.

I will point out the fact that it is not my goal to “spread the wealth.” I want people to be able to provide for themselves, not merely to give them scraps off the table of the wealthy.
[/quote]

In no way have I “berated you”. lol I can tell you, I have experienced the wrath of a Marine Corps drill instructor. I know what beratement is. And the fact of the matter is this: if you know that something is morally and legally wrong, yet you do so anyways, you are willfully criminal. Especially when doing so without any remorse.

I have ignored none of your “facts” in any of our discussions, and have always displayed a willingness to continue the discussion. I have backed up my ideas plenty while making clear attempts at understanding yours; even if I don’t agree with them. You have yet to reciprocate. You are drunk on your own ideology and perceived notions of the world, and resorting to name calling is not shoring up your argument.

You accuse me of spouting off “knee jerk reactions…that republicans have burned into my brain” you then hit me with this:[quote]I want people to be able to provide for themselves, not merely to give them scraps off the table of the wealthy.[/quote] Which is of course, left wing ideology which has quite obviously been burned into your brain. lol @ the hypocrisy.

I would love it if a wealthy capitalist would move into my community and open a shop/factory/restaurant/whatever business and provide the jobs which would come with it. In fact, the state of Michigan could use a helluvalot more of these individuals, we’re hurting.

I’ll have to address your other points later.

[jasmincar]

tax them the fuck out and burn the money

[Ryan_P_McCarter]

bigflamer wrote: And the fact of the matter is this: if you know that something is morally and legally wrong, yet you do so anyways, you are willfully criminal.

But that’s the thing: it’s not legally wrong, and my original statement had nothing to do with the moral aspect. What you are saying is essentially that the government is criminal because they do not conform to your particular moral code, which is of course ridiculous. They don’t conform to my moral code either, but you’d tell me to deal with it if I said the US was “criminal because it is a capitalist country.”

I have ignored none of your “facts” in any of our discussions, and have always displayed a willingness to continue the discussion. I have backed up my ideas plenty while making clear attempts at understanding yours; even if I don’t agree with them. You have yet to reciprocate. You are drunk on your own ideology and perceived notions of the world, and resorting to name calling is not shoring up your argument.

Oh really? Because in every conversation that I can remember having with you, you’ve either complained about the government creating a problem which, in reality, it did not create, or you’re attempting to split hairs to avoid an obvious conclusion which you don’t like (as you are doing here).

You accuse me of spouting off “knee jerk reactions…that republicans have burned into my brain” you then hit me with this:[quote]I want people to be able to provide for themselves, not merely to give them scraps off the table of the wealthy.[/quote] Which is of course, left wing ideology which has quite obviously been burned into your brain. lol @ the hypocrisy.

No hypocrisy at all. These are my ideals. I live in the US too. From what source of propaganda would this have come? The fact is, your comments display an utter ignorance of socialist ideology and theory. Which is fine, but it’s not very effectual to make sweeping statements about a system you know nothing about.

[ZEB]

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:It’s interesting to the person I have never seen any lefty be able to defend liberalism when really pushed, Ryan is no exception. It just gets sillier and sillier the more you push them.
[/quote]

I have no interest in defending liberalism, because I am not a liberal.

You should have an interest in defending liberalism, though.
[/quote]

You represent the ultra left (a socialist perhaps) and make as little sense as anyone who has tried to defend this nonsense.

[Ryan_P_McCarter]

ZEB wrote:You represent the ultra left (a socialist perhaps) and make as little sense as anyone who has tried to defend this nonsense.

Did you know that ultra-left implies a certain type of communist? The reason I don’t make any sense to you is that you’re a moron.

[jp_dubya]

This went down the shitter fast. Who’s the young’n talking socialism with the queer as an avatar?

[Rockscar]

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
This went down the shitter fast. Who’s the young’n talking socialism with the queer as an avatar?[/quote]

Meet our self proclaimed young communist! The previous avatar was the flag of the USSR.

[bigflamer]

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
But that’s the thing: it’s not legally wrong, and my original statement had nothing to do with the moral aspect. What you are saying is essentially that the government is criminal because they do not conform to your particular moral code, which is of course ridiculous. They don’t conform to my moral code either, but you’d tell me to deal with it if I said the US was “criminal because it is a capitalist country.”[/quote]

You’re right, taxation is not criminal as it is the law. However, I take offense to statements such as “it’s not your money, it’s the governments”. Statements such as that will draw the ire of freedom loving conservatives every time. It is the peoples money, period. That money originated with the hard work of the many individuals who made it, which was then passed on to the parasite we know as government.

Oh really? Because in every conversation that I can remember having with you, you’ve either complained about the government creating a problem which, in reality, it did not create, or you’re attempting to split hairs to avoid an obvious conclusion which you don’t like (as you are doing here).

Probably because you were always extolling the virtues of the government, and inferring that the government does no wrong other than to be capitalist. And I need to point out to you your hypocrisy. You claim that I split hairs in an attempt to avoid an obvious conclusion which you don’t like, yet you do this very thing quite obviously w/r/t your statements on taxation. Again, lol@ your blatant hypocrisy. Man up and admit that it is the peoples money, entrusted to the public servants.

And yes, it’s true that I cannot consider myself an expert in socialism, and I admit that I am attempting to learn more about the nuts and bolts of how real money works, and economics in general. But to steal a line from you, don’t kid yourself; I’m not an ignorant, be it with socialism or otherwise. Again, you are drunk on your own ideology, and even yourself.

[Ryan_P_McCarter]

bigflamer wrote:You’re right, taxation is not criminal as it is the law. However, I take offense to statements such as “it’s not your money, it’s the governments”. Statements such as that will draw the ire of freedom loving conservatives every time. It is the peoples money, period. That money originated with the hard work of the many individuals who made it, which was then passed on to the parasite we know as government.

Like I said, I don’t dispute your right to have any opinion you wish on the matter. I don’t necessarily even disagree with you, at least not radically. All I’m saying is that it is not criminal, because it is sanctioned by law. The law may or may not be considered “right,” but it is the law. All I’m saying.

Probably because you were always extolling the virtues of the government, and inferring that the government does no wrong other than to be capitalist.

I have never extolled the virtues of the government. I have frequently pointed out that the prevailing attitude on this forum, that the government is always at the root of every problem, is short-sighted, and that the government by its very nature is in a position to accomplish certain things that markets cannot, but that’s hardly the same as “extolling its virtues.”

You, on the other hand, always extoll the virtues of the market.

And I need to point out to you your hypocrisy. You claim that I split hairs in an attempt to avoid an obvious conclusion which you don’t like, yet you do this very thing quite obviously w/r/t your statements on taxation. Again, lol@ your blatant hypocrisy. Man up and admit that it is the peoples money, entrusted to the public servants.

You’re the one who needs to man up. Taxes are the government’s way of appropriating funds. It subsequently becomes the government’s money. I never commented on the propriety of this process one way or t’other. Now you may wish to entertain delightful notions of it being used in the name of the people, or to guild the matter in some other way, but by definition, and by every practical consideration, it is the government’s money. Again, this is the obviously correct conclusion, and you still are attempting to dress the matter up to make it more appealing to you. Pushharder was originally attempting to avoid this conclusion because it made him look a bit silly (although, not that silly; his objection was out of all proportion to his error, which was but slight). Your entire objection hinges upon a subjective moral judgement which has nothing whatever to do with the legality of the matter. For instance, if I were to say, “Employers who profit off the labor of their workers are criminals,” you would quite rightly inform me, that I was incorrect, and that running a business and employing wage labor was perfectly legal. My entire judgement in that case depends upon my subjective moral code, which you do not share and thus quickly dismiss. Yet when the situation is reversed, you cannot look past your own moral judgement to see the bare mechanical reality. In other words, your argument is not so much wrong as simply inappropriate. Legality or illegality is a simple matter of looking at the books, whereas you are making a normative statement. They are simply incompatible.

And yes, it’s true that I cannot consider myself an expert in socialism, and I admit that I am attempting to learn more about the nuts and bolts of how real money works, and economics in general. But to steal a line from you, don’t kid yourself; I’m not an ignorant, be it with socialism or otherwise. Again, you are drunk on your own ideology, and even yourself.

You are not merely not an expert, you don’t know the first thing about them. Which as I said earlier, is absolutely fine. But when you make statements about the subject that are wrong, I will point them out to you, just as you would inform me of my error were I to say something like “Libertarians want to steal money from the poor to give to the rich.” If I continued to make false claims after I had been corrected, you would be irritated at my dishonesty, and rightly so. But you will always judge me to be arrogant, “drunk on ideology,” etc. as long as I disagree with you, regardless of how little sense the accusations make.

[Ryan_P_McCarter]

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
This went down the shitter fast. Who’s the young’n talking socialism with the queer as an avatar?[/quote]

Meet our self proclaimed young communist! The previous avatar was the flag of the USSR.[/quote]

I’m thinking of changing it back. It’s amusing to see you get so worked up.

[Rockscar]

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
This went down the shitter fast. Who’s the young’n talking socialism with the queer as an avatar?[/quote]

Meet our self proclaimed young communist! The previous avatar was the flag of the USSR.[/quote]

I’m thinking of changing it back. It’s amusing to see you get so worked up.
[/quote]

Well it embodies your views and shows your intent to provoke a response for sure. I’m all for it!

[ZEB]

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

ZEB wrote:You represent the ultra left (a socialist perhaps) and make as little sense as anyone who has tried to defend this nonsense.

Did you know that ultra-left implies a certain type of communist? The reason I don’t make any sense to you is that you’re a moron.
[/quote]

It’s either that or you’re yet another messed up college punk who sits there open mouthed while his socialist professor spoon feeds you your latest thoughts for the day.

Yea, I think that’s it.