[quote]orion wrote: What oyu do not get is that he “imposes” n thing. He knows what constitutes “usefullnes” to him. That is all he has to know-
YOu on the other hand seem to know what would be more “useful” and that means that you are under the obligation to define what “useful” is.[/quote]
Well forgive me for thinking that infrastructure, investments in schools, health facilities, alternative energy sources etc. are more useful than a blowout 16th birthday party. I assumed that context would be sufficient to inform you that I was referring to concrete usefulness, not satisfaction of desires.
I am not interested in your armchair deterministic theories when you’re cheering on a system that has systematically failed to deliver on its promises for hundreds of years. Capitalism necessarily leads to oligopoly, impoverishment of the masses, and then crisis, which has been demonstrated over and over again, yet you deny this very obvious fact. Your failing in this area consequently does little to recommend your judgement to me.
[quote]orion wrote: What oyu do not get is that he “imposes” n thing. He knows what constitutes “usefullnes” to him. That is all he has to know-
YOu on the other hand seem to know what would be more “useful” and that means that you are under the obligation to define what “useful” is.[/quote]
Well forgive me for thinking that infrastructure, investments in schools, health facilities, alternative energy sources etc. are more useful than a blowout 16th birthday party. I assumed that context would be sufficient to inform you that I was referring to concrete usefulness, not satisfaction of desires.
I am not interested in your armchair deterministic theories when you’re cheering on a system that has systematically failed to deliver on its promises for hundreds of years. Capitalism necessarily leads to oligopoly, impoverishment of the masses, and then crisis, which has been demonstrated over and over again, yet you deny this very obvious fact. Your failing in this area consequently does little to recommend your judgement to me.[/quote]
When did capitalism promise anything?
Are we not better off than we were before?
Your whole idea what todays world looks like is skewed because you have no idea what is looked like in the past. You are not comparing it to what was but to an imaginary utopia. That is knwon as the “nirvana fallacy”.
Also, I am perfectly able to point out what I want the system to look like, you never do that and for good reasons.
I am able to point to a system which has given us the wealthiest, healthiest, longest living and best educated societies mankind has ever formed so I guess I am on the safe side promoting such a system.
Now there may be room for inprovement and people are invited to experiment. On their own time, with their own money.
Edit: Bonus points for calling a free market philosophy “deterministic” whereas your planned economy theories REQUIRE a deterministic universe. A very linear and simpole one.
Its ideologues and apologists promise things all the time. Do you disagree?
19th century American slaves were better off than their 18th century forebears. Is that an argument for slavery? People lived better under Hitler’s Germany. Is that an argument for fascism? What’s your point?
You simply have no idea what you’re talking about here. You are the one who is constantly arguing on the wrong side of history. “The system never crashes without a central bank.” [HA!] “Without profit, people won’t innovate.” You are the one with the utopian fantasy. “Here we are at the end of history! We’ve finally found the perfect formula! All previous ages were subject to change and evolution, but not us! We don’t even have to make any decisions, just let the market take care of everything!”
But you are intensely dishonest in the way you go about it. You always fail to mention that these benefits of capitalism you tout were achieved against the opposition of the capitalists, by entities that you propose are harmful. You’re always very careful to avoid mentioning the results of capitalism when it is more-or-less left alone. You forget these benefits did not become widespread or significant until the establishment of trades unions, factory legislation, and the like. I’m not denying that capitalism has done us a great service by greatly augmenting the productive capacity of society, but what you attempt to do is enumerate its accomplishments without mentioning its failings. You’re not interested in a better way to organize an economy, you’re interested in promoting capitalism. That’s fine, but admit it.
Well then, we ought to get right to expropriation of the capitalists, because that property belongs to society.
Again, your numerous inaccuracies cause me to be unconcerned about your opinion.
Ahaha! What did I tell you? You can’t do it. I can never make my points better than you can. Like I said in an earlier post, you’re too smart to have to support your opinions. You must attempt to turn the question around on me! Nevermind the fact that if you were right, and if the matter were half as clear as you say it is, it ought to be trivially easy to produce one single quote that would substantiate your claim.
Also disregard the fact that, since I claim that your representation of my opinion is not accurate, it would be impossible for me to “show” that I am right, since you would be asking me to show something that I claim is not there. Therefore, your suggestion that I do your work for you doesn’t even make sense.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
What’s funny to me is that a frivolous party is just fine because “A whole bunch of folks made their mortgage payments, bought groceries, paid medical bills, gassed up their cars, bought lumber, went to movie theaters, etc.” yet projects that actually produce useful things are “misguided” simply because the government buys them.[/quote]
Oh darn you forgot something very, very important, the millionaire is actually spending his own money and has the right to do with it what he’d like.
Hey now there’s a concept you’re going to have some trouble with huh? Here’s another shocker for you, this is how the economy is SUPPOSED TO WORK.
Now how can anyone argue with that logic? [/quote]
I wonder if its mine again if I take it right back?
[/quote]
Why do you think the Government forces Corporations to pull out the taxes of employees everytime the employee gets paid? The Government is not that stupid. They understand the people can not save a dime even if it hit them on the head. They have to steal the money up front or they would never be able to steal it. I am all for paying my taxes, but I just wish it was more fair. I create money with my money. I dont know what the Government creates with my money except Defense, a couple of roads, and maybe a few slaves to the welfare system. To be dependent on something for your well being is considered a slave. I am a slave to my job, but hope to change that soon and start my own business.
Once they take it, it’s their money. Period. Whine and cry about the moral implications all you want, it doesn’t change the facts of the situation.
[/quote]
Again, quit being so emotional. Calm down and seperate the ethical consideration from the bare reality. It’s an easy point.[/quote]
Sure it’s an easy point, and a childish one as well. One cannot separate the morals of the thing from the thing itself. My question to you is; are you okay with the mugging? You are once again showing that you have a very limited understanding of human nature. Explain to me Ryan, how is it that a man is supposed to not be emotional about having his enterprise taken from him against his will?
You may not be able to seperate the morality of an act from its existence, but others easily can. Just consider it in an of itself.
And I have already demonstrated your errors in your use of the term “human nature.” Not that you are interested in exchanging error for truth. It would be uncomfortable for you.
[quote]spyoptic wrote:
for my super sweet 16 I bought a boxful of Icehouse 40s and one of my friends smoked a joint with me but didn’t pitch in for the booze. I’m not still hardboring any angry feelings about it tho. I also made out and fingered my friends fat sister.[/quote]
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
You may not be able to seperate the morality of an act from its existence, but others easily can. Just consider it in an of itself.[/quote]
Of course there’s those that can, they’re called criminals…
You’ve demonstrated nothing but the foolishness of your ideas. Individual freedom, rights to one’s own property, drive to succeed (incentive), etc.; all elements of human nature which are not supported by socialism. I understand that trading in errors for truth would be uncomfortable, this would explain why you have chosen not to do it. I also understand that you are a student, and therefore are functioning with a very limited understanding of the real world. Go out into the world after you get your education, work hard and build up some wealth, have a family and be tasked with the responsibility of supporting and providing for it, then you will have a larger understanding of the world. Better yet, start a successful business and provide some jobs in your community. That’s the best way I know of to “spread the wealth”.