Tasers: Enemy of the Free

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

Also…control would still come from somewhere…we would still have drug dealers(duh)…murders,kidnappings,extortion,etc…all those lovely things associated with the “drug world”[/quote]

So put them in prison for murder, kidnapping, extortion, etc? Why throw someone in prison for making bad choices if they aren’t depriving anyone else of their rights? You’re not doing them a favor. You think sharing a cell with a butt raping gang banger is an act of mercy, of concern for their sobriety?

And, of course we’d still have drug dealers. Then again, we still have them now. At least it’d remove much of the crime associated with prohibition and the resulting blackmarket. Those crimes you listed above are common amongst the drug trade because we’ve ensured that the violent career criminal has a monopoly.

162

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Also…control would still come from somewhere…we would still have drug dealers(duh)…murders,kidnappings,extortion,etc…all those lovely things associated with the “drug world”[/quote]

Yes, I agree. The black market provides all the incentive “entrepreneurs” need to operate. It is not so much the “drugs” as it is the money that is the ultimate end they are after. Take away the money and there is no incentive. That can only happen when drug use is decriminalize and the free market is allowed to operate.

Alcoholics don’t get treated like junkies and crime from alcoholics isn’t a problem except for the odd drunk driver and domestic abuse here and there. I don’t see that going away just because there are police. The police are there to “clean up” and take people to jail.

163

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:

Also…control would still come from somewhere…we would still have drug dealers(duh)…murders,kidnappings,extortion,etc…all those lovely things associated with the “drug world”

So put them in prison for murder, kidnapping, extortion, etc? Why throw someone in prison for making bad choices if they aren’t depriving anyone else of their rights? You’re not doing them a favor. You think sharing a cell with a butt raping gang banger is an act of mercy, of concern for their sobriety?

And, of course we’d still have drug dealers. Then again, we still have them now. At least it’d remove much of the crime associated with prohibition and the resulting blackmarket. Those crimes you listed above are common amongst the drug trade because we’ve ensured that the violent career criminal has a monopoly. [/quote]

I see your point,BUT How do you know they will not deprive anyone else of their rights?? Will legalizing drugs cure the country of crimes committed by those under the influence of drugs?? Legalizing them doesn’t diminish their effects,does it?

If drugs were legal…do you honestly believe a governing body(FDA,corporations)will not control them like every other drug?? Would that not breed a black market?..like we already have? You should ask yourself those questions

164

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Also…control would still come from somewhere…we would still have drug dealers(duh)…murders,kidnappings,extortion,etc…all those lovely things associated with the “drug world”

Yes, I agree. The black market provides all the incentive “entrepreneurs” need to operate. It is not so much the “drugs” as it is the money that is the ultimate end they are after. Take away the money and there is no incentive. That can only happen when drug use is decriminalize and the free market is allowed to operate.

Alcoholics don’t get treated like junkies and crime from alcoholics isn’t a problem except for the odd drunk driver and domestic abuse here and there. I don’t see that going away just because there are police. The police are there to “clean up” and take people to jail.[/quote]

EXACTLY…BUT how exactly are you taking away money as an incentive?? See my post above.

165

Oh and crime from alcoholics are more than just odd meaningless crimes here and there…I know I give you a hard time…but still…educate yourself.

166

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:

Also…control would still come from somewhere…we would still have drug dealers(duh)…murders,kidnappings,extortion,etc…all those lovely things associated with the “drug world”

So put them in prison for murder, kidnapping, extortion, etc? Why throw someone in prison for making bad choices if they aren’t depriving anyone else of their rights? You’re not doing them a favor. You think sharing a cell with a butt raping gang banger is an act of mercy, of concern for their sobriety?

And, of course we’d still have drug dealers. Then again, we still have them now. At least it’d remove much of the crime associated with prohibition and the resulting blackmarket. Those crimes you listed above are common amongst the drug trade because we’ve ensured that the violent career criminal has a monopoly.

I see your point,BUT How do you know they will not deprive anyone else of their rights?? Will legalizing drugs cure the country of crimes committed by those under the influence of drugs?? Legalizing them doesn’t diminish their effects,does it?

If drugs were legal…do you honestly believe a governing body(FDA,corporations)will not control them like every other drug?? Would that not breed a black market?..like we already have? You should ask yourself those questions
[/quote]

I did not like that argument coming from Zap, and I do not like it better coming from you.

We are saying:

The government is a big part of the problem.

You are saying:

Maybe , but it will never ever let go of controlling and coercing people and simply create a black market by other means.

So your solution is bowing to the inevitable tyranny of bureaucratized mediocrity and stupidity.

To kneel before petty tyrants?

Before the JeffRs of our world?

Um, no, thanks a lot.

167

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
I see your point,BUT How do you know they will not deprive anyone else of their rights?? [/quote]

So we view it as a preemptive measure?

How do you know drunks will not deprive anyone else of their rights? How do you know gun owners will not deprive anyone else of their rights? You’re a smart kid Boss, but your argument here doesn’t makes much sense. Do you not believe in presumption of innocence?

168

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
EXACTLY…BUT how exactly are you taking away money as an incentive?? See my post above.[/quote]

The free market will increase production and drive prices down. If grandma can start selling some delicious homegrown “purple sticky” at decent prices there will be no incentive for armed thugs coming into my neighborhood to sell weed – initially grandma will have to get a conceal and carry permit but the gang-bangers won’t get 'em all.

The blackmarket, on the contrary, is a form of protection and coercion. (Coercion by both the government and gangs.) The government creates the environment for a functioning blackmarket and it is protected by armed criminals. Look what happened once alcohol prohibition was repealed in the 1930s. No one gets killed over a fifth of Jack Daniels’ No. 7.

Blackmarkets can only happen through lack of legal competition which the government guarantees.

169

[quote]lixy wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
I see your point,BUT How do you know they will not deprive anyone else of their rights??

So we view it as a preemptive measure?

How do you know drunks will not deprive anyone else of their rights? How do you know gun owners will not deprive anyone else of their rights? You’re a smart kid Boss, but your argument here doesn’t makes much sense. Do you not believe in presumption of innocence?[/quote]

thats my point exactly…we’re pretty much making the same argument. My argument is for the “Why throw someone in prison for making bad choices if they aren’t depriving anyone else of their rights?” comment.

Can you make the presumption that those that make bad choices for themselves will not or cannot deprive others of their rights?? NO…You can’t make a presumption of anything in that aspect.

170

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
EXACTLY…BUT how exactly are you taking away money as an incentive?? See my post above.

The free market will increase production and drive prices down. If grandma can start selling some delicious homegrown “purple sticky” at decent prices there will be no incentive for armed thugs coming into my neighborhood to sell weed – initially grandma will have to get a conceal and carry permit but the gang-bangers won’t get 'em all.

The blackmarket, on the contrary, is a form of protection and coercion. (Coercion by both the government and gangs.) The government creates the environment for a functioning blackmarket and it is protected by armed criminals. Look what happened once alcohol prohibition was repealed in the 1930s. No one gets killed over a fifth of Jack Daniels’ No. 7.

Blackmarkets can only happen through lack of legal competition which the government guarantees.[/quote]

I see what you’re saying and I agree…BUT who governs the sale of alcohol??

171

Many drugs are illegal because people make bad choices under their influence. It is that simple.

I don’t believe we should wait for the crazy meth addict to kill his kids/mom/neighbor before we take away the substance that makes him crazy.

172

[quote]orion wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:

Also…control would still come from somewhere…we would still have drug dealers(duh)…murders,kidnappings,extortion,etc…all those lovely things associated with the “drug world”

So put them in prison for murder, kidnapping, extortion, etc? Why throw someone in prison for making bad choices if they aren’t depriving anyone else of their rights? You’re not doing them a favor. You think sharing a cell with a butt raping gang banger is an act of mercy, of concern for their sobriety?

And, of course we’d still have drug dealers. Then again, we still have them now. At least it’d remove much of the crime associated with prohibition and the resulting blackmarket. Those crimes you listed above are common amongst the drug trade because we’ve ensured that the violent career criminal has a monopoly.

I see your point,BUT How do you know they will not deprive anyone else of their rights?? Will legalizing drugs cure the country of crimes committed by those under the influence of drugs?? Legalizing them doesn’t diminish their effects,does it?

If drugs were legal…do you honestly believe a governing body(FDA,corporations)will not control them like every other drug?? Would that not breed a black market?..like we already have? You should ask yourself those questions

I did not like that argument coming from Zap, and I do not like it better coming from you.

We are saying:

The government is a big part of the problem.

You are saying:

Maybe , but it will never ever let go of controlling and coercing people and simply create a black market by other means.

So your solution is bowing to the inevitable tyranny of bureaucratized mediocrity and stupidity.

To kneel before petty tyrants?

Before the JeffRs of our world?

Um, no, thanks a lot.
[/quote]

I think you’ve mistaken what I’m saying…I never stated that the government is not part of the problem. Like I stated previously…control of the “drug market” will come from somewhere…thats all I said.

I stand correct for the most part about the blackmarket stuff BUT…my biggest argument was the fact that someone could think that legalizing drugs will cut down on drug related crimes…but what about those crimes committed because of someone being under the influence of drugs? Would it increase or decrease?

Don’t know were you feel I provided a solution,but you all support legalization…and yet you don’t provide a solution yourself for the possible negative effects of legalization. I’m just pointing out things that need the attention…nothing more.

173

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Many drugs are illegal because people make bad choices under their influence. It is that simple.

I don’t believe we should wait for the crazy meth addict to kill his kids/mom/neighbor before we take away the substance that makes him crazy.[/quote]

Yeah, we all know marijuana turns people into crazed murderers.

Anslinger wants his lines back.

174

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Many drugs are illegal because people make bad choices under their influence. It is that simple.
[/quote]

EXACTLY! I don’t see how everyone doesn’t understand that…I know “its their choice…its their freedom to fuck up” but its not just about them…this supports my argument that legalizing drugs doesn’t provide a solution for crimes committed by those under the influence of drugs.

Hay! Drugs are legal and cheaper! I don’t have to rob or steal when I don’t have any money for heroin…I’ll just use my Lone Star card/credit card! I don’t have to use them everyday! and not worry about going to work after being awake for 2 weeks straight! I can start a meth lab/day spa chain!

There’s too much gray area with this subject. Whose gonna monitor the drug market. How is it gonna be sold? Like alcohol? or like over the counter meds? How much is it gonna cost?

175

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Many drugs are illegal because people make bad choices under their influence. It is that simple.

I don’t believe we should wait for the crazy meth addict to kill his kids/mom/neighbor before we take away the substance that makes him crazy.

Yeah, we all know marijuana turns people into crazed murderers.

Anslinger wants his lines back.[/quote]

lol…thats the best you can come with? “You’re a smart kid” Lixy :wink:

didn’t know this was just about marijuana. You legalize one drug and you’ll have to legalize them all.

176

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Many drugs are illegal because people make bad choices under their influence. It is that simple.

I don’t believe we should wait for the crazy meth addict to kill his kids/mom/neighbor before we take away the substance that makes him crazy.[/quote]

Right, so we should punish people for making choices which infringe upon someone else’s rights. I don’t think anyone is arguing that.

177

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
orion wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:

Also…control would still come from somewhere…we would still have drug dealers(duh)…murders,kidnappings,extortion,etc…all those lovely things associated with the “drug world”

So put them in prison for murder, kidnapping, extortion, etc? Why throw someone in prison for making bad choices if they aren’t depriving anyone else of their rights? You’re not doing them a favor. You think sharing a cell with a butt raping gang banger is an act of mercy, of concern for their sobriety?

And, of course we’d still have drug dealers. Then again, we still have them now. At least it’d remove much of the crime associated with prohibition and the resulting blackmarket. Those crimes you listed above are common amongst the drug trade because we’ve ensured that the violent career criminal has a monopoly.

I see your point,BUT How do you know they will not deprive anyone else of their rights?? Will legalizing drugs cure the country of crimes committed by those under the influence of drugs?? Legalizing them doesn’t diminish their effects,does it?

If drugs were legal…do you honestly believe a governing body(FDA,corporations)will not control them like every other drug?? Would that not breed a black market?..like we already have? You should ask yourself those questions

I did not like that argument coming from Zap, and I do not like it better coming from you.

We are saying:

The government is a big part of the problem.

You are saying:

Maybe , but it will never ever let go of controlling and coercing people and simply create a black market by other means.

So your solution is bowing to the inevitable tyranny of bureaucratized mediocrity and stupidity.

To kneel before petty tyrants?

Before the JeffRs of our world?

Um, no, thanks a lot.

I think you’ve mistaken what I’m saying…I never stated that the government is not part of the problem. Like I stated previously…control of the “drug market” will come from somewhere…thats all I said.

I stand correct for the most part about the blackmarket stuff BUT…my biggest argument was the fact that someone could think that legalizing drugs will cut down on drug related crimes…but what about those crimes committed because of someone being under the influence of drugs? Would it increase or decrease?

Don’t know were you feel I provided a solution,but you all support legalization…and yet you don’t provide a solution yourself for the possible negative effects of legalization. I’m just pointing out things that need the attention…nothing more.[/quote]

So my point is:

Legalize it-

Does the Jim Beam outfit gun down the Budweiser Boyz in your neighbourhood?

No they don`t.

We cannot take away all the crime people do on drugs, just most of the crimes connected to the black market, with lower costs.

What more do you want?

178

[quote]orion wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
orion wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:

Also…control would still come from somewhere…we would still have drug dealers(duh)…murders,kidnappings,extortion,etc…all those lovely things associated with the “drug world”

So put them in prison for murder, kidnapping, extortion, etc? Why throw someone in prison for making bad choices if they aren’t depriving anyone else of their rights? You’re not doing them a favor. You think sharing a cell with a butt raping gang banger is an act of mercy, of concern for their sobriety?

And, of course we’d still have drug dealers. Then again, we still have them now. At least it’d remove much of the crime associated with prohibition and the resulting blackmarket. Those crimes you listed above are common amongst the drug trade because we’ve ensured that the violent career criminal has a monopoly.

I see your point,BUT How do you know they will not deprive anyone else of their rights?? Will legalizing drugs cure the country of crimes committed by those under the influence of drugs?? Legalizing them doesn’t diminish their effects,does it?

If drugs were legal…do you honestly believe a governing body(FDA,corporations)will not control them like every other drug?? Would that not breed a black market?..like we already have? You should ask yourself those questions

I did not like that argument coming from Zap, and I do not like it better coming from you.

We are saying:

The government is a big part of the problem.

You are saying:

Maybe , but it will never ever let go of controlling and coercing people and simply create a black market by other means.

So your solution is bowing to the inevitable tyranny of bureaucratized mediocrity and stupidity.

To kneel before petty tyrants?

Before the JeffRs of our world?

Um, no, thanks a lot.

I think you’ve mistaken what I’m saying…I never stated that the government is not part of the problem. Like I stated previously…control of the “drug market” will come from somewhere…thats all I said.

I stand correct for the most part about the blackmarket stuff BUT…my biggest argument was the fact that someone could think that legalizing drugs will cut down on drug related crimes…but what about those crimes committed because of someone being under the influence of drugs? Would it increase or decrease?

Don’t know were you feel I provided a solution,but you all support legalization…and yet you don’t provide a solution yourself for the possible negative effects of legalization. I’m just pointing out things that need the attention…nothing more.

So my point is:

Legalize it-

Does the Jim Beam outfit gun down the Budweiser Boyz in your neighbourhood?

No they don`t.

We cannot take away all the crime people do on drugs, just most of the crimes connected to the black market, with lower costs.

What more do you want?[/quote]

So that makes legalizing drugs worth the crimes. I want the same thing everbody that has been affected by drugs wants. We can’t take away anything thats wrong with this world…but we can damper it…legalizing drugs is definitely not a solution. Oh and the Jim Beam outfit and the Budweiser Boyz are serving prison time for their 3rd DWI conviction because they pose a danger to people around them…THEY CAN’T CONTROL THEIR ADDICTION TO A LEGAL SUBSTANCE.

179

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Many drugs are illegal because people make bad choices under their influence. It is that simple.

I don’t believe we should wait for the crazy meth addict to kill his kids/mom/neighbor before we take away the substance that makes him crazy.

Yeah, we all know marijuana turns people into crazed murderers.

Anslinger wants his lines back.[/quote]

Where did I say marijuana? I have said it should be legalized many times. Don’t you have a 13 year old rape victim to stone to death?

180

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Many drugs are illegal because people make bad choices under their influence. It is that simple.

I don’t believe we should wait for the crazy meth addict to kill his kids/mom/neighbor before we take away the substance that makes him crazy.[/quote]

And I believe we should outlaw alcohol before the dumbass gets behind the wheel and runs over an eight-year old. While we’re at it I think we should outlaw McDonald’s because many parents that take their kids there end up making them obese which is the number one preventable cause of death in the U.S. We have to do it now…for the kids Zap. You are starting to sound like a liberal.

mike