mike
^ Awesome
I saw that the other night. WTF?
http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=219426&title=tron-carters-laworder
These guys watch too much Dave Chappelle.
Go to Get A Life, there is already a thread going.
Ahhh Jesus Christ…
What do you want me to say?
The FUCKING WAR ON DRUGS dumb and expensive
I read some of the other thread and from what I gather, a pitbull was shot dead and the corgi was wounded by accident. That is somewhat more understandable.
The larger question about the war on drugs and the use of SWAT teams to raid a home like this is still the issue.
[quote]JD430 wrote:
I read some of the other thread and from what I gather, a pitbull was shot dead and the corgi was wounded by accident. That is somewhat more understandable.
The larger question about the war on drugs and the use of SWAT teams to raid a home like this is still the issue. [/quote]
I understand the dog was probably protecting his pack, but I am curious how much drugs were found and do you feel that it was a good thing to do to the family. If the father shot the dog in front of the children , he would have been arrested for child abuse as well as crulty to animals .
How much did they spend on that bust ? How much will they spend on court ?If anybody gets jail , how much will be spent on the incarseration ? Where is the up side ?
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]JD430 wrote:
I read some of the other thread and from what I gather, a pitbull was shot dead and the corgi was wounded by accident. That is somewhat more understandable.
The larger question about the war on drugs and the use of SWAT teams to raid a home like this is still the issue. [/quote]
I understand the dog was probably protecting his pack, but I am curious how much drugs were found and do you feel that it was a good thing to do to the family. If the father shot the dog in front of the children , he would have been arrested for child abuse as well as crulty to animals .
How much did they spend on that bust ? How much will they spend on court ?If anybody gets jail , how much will be spent on the incarseration ? Where is the up side ?[/quote]
There are a few things that need to be said as a preface. One is that I have very little information on this case and I think most of you guys are in the same boat. The house and its occupants(the guy I am talking about) don’t “look” dangerous, so we assume that is the case. Truthfully it probably is, but I have come across people that would surprise you. If he had a history of violent crimes, a SWAT team may have been justified purely from a tactical stand point. Next, there is a philosophy in many jurisdictions that SWAT should always serve drug warrants. There are numerous reasons but include justifying a budget for SWAT, getting practice in the real world for team members and most legitimately in my opinion, they are better equipped and trained to make sure no one gets hurt. Before I start hearing bullshit from you guys about how that is not true, keep this in mind…the other option for serving these warrants is a narcotics squad. 99% of the time, those guys don’t have a fraction of the training a SWAT operator does in dominating a structure. I have seen it first hand. It can be harrowing when narc detectives go running around a house like headless chickens screaming “police! search warrant!”. At least with SWAT it is systematic.
While on the topic, way too much is made of the “paramilitary” appearance of SWAT teams. I have a feeling that much of this comes from writers like Radley Balko…a man whose work I am very familiar with. While I think he hits the nail on the head on certain issues, he is often just a crybaby bitch with an anti-police bias that he stokes in others with very tainted information. He decries the fact that most cops wear combat boots now instead of black loafers for christsakes. Its nonsense. This is a different country than 1950 Mayberry.
While I don’t like seeing children traumatized by a raid like that, does no responsibility fall on the head of the father? My first and foremost function in life is to keep my household safe. That includes from criminals, other interlopers and agents of the government. If that means giving up my childish desire to smoke weed or whatever to avoid the government hammer falling on me, I do it for my family’s sake.
All of that said, the real issue boils down to the justification of these raids in the first place. Marijuana should be legal. It is a waste of time and money fighting over it. Many, many cops believe this. Mind you, I really look down upon people that feel the need to blitz their mind with all kinds of different substances. I think it speaks to a grave weakness of character, but that is my opinion. I have no interest in forcing my way of life onto you. The only valid argument I see against other harder drugs is the “societal cost” one. If you overdose on heroin, it can set into motion a great deal of resources to save your life. Those cost time and money and most junkies don’t foot their own bills in my experience. When you are talking about really nasty stuff like meth, PCP and to a degree coke, these things lead to some really horrible crimes and once again, you will have a very expensive and time consuming response to clean up that mess. I’m still up in the air as far as my personal feelings on dropping the war on drugs altogether. Perhaps if we would be more willing as a society to accept the doctrine that we were founded on more fully…personal freedom requires personal responsibility, then I would be all for it. Too many bleeding hearts would never allow that however.
I am much more in favor of respecting the boundaries of one’s home and property in terms of private behavior. Drug raids in private residences should definitely be reduced drastically and SWAT should be focused almost entirely on its real purpose…preparing for and responding to rare circumstances that are too dangerous and extreme for the line officers to handle. I am glad that this is what my team does. Drug warrants are served by narcotics detectives.
Not always easy to make black and white out of these things.
[quote]JD430 wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]JD430 wrote:
I read some of the other thread and from what I gather, a pitbull was shot dead and the corgi was wounded by accident. That is somewhat more understandable.
The larger question about the war on drugs and the use of SWAT teams to raid a home like this is still the issue. [/quote]
I understand the dog was probably protecting his pack, but I am curious how much drugs were found and do you feel that it was a good thing to do to the family. If the father shot the dog in front of the children , he would have been arrested for child abuse as well as crulty to animals .
How much did they spend on that bust ? How much will they spend on court ?If anybody gets jail , how much will be spent on the incarseration ? Where is the up side ?[/quote]
There are a few things that need to be said as a preface. One is that I have very little information on this case and I think most of you guys are in the same boat. The house and its occupants(the guy I am talking about) don’t “look” dangerous, so we assume that is the case. Truthfully it probably is, but I have come across people that would surprise you. If he had a history of violent crimes, a SWAT team may have been justified purely from a tactical stand point. Next, there is a philosophy in many jurisdictions that SWAT should always serve drug warrants. There are numerous reasons but include justifying a budget for SWAT, getting practice in the real world for team members and most legitimately in my opinion, they are better equipped and trained to make sure no one gets hurt. Before I start hearing bullshit from you guys about how that is not true, keep this in mind…the other option for serving these warrants is a narcotics squad. 99% of the time, those guys don’t have a fraction of the training a SWAT operator does in dominating a structure. I have seen it first hand. It can be harrowing when narc detectives go running around a house like headless chickens screaming “police! search warrant!”. At least with SWAT it is systematic.
While on the topic, way too much is made of the “paramilitary” appearance of SWAT teams. I have a feeling that much of this comes from writers like Radley Balko…a man whose work I am very familiar with. While I think he hits the nail on the head on certain issues, he is often just a crybaby bitch with an anti-police bias that he stokes in others with very tainted information. He decries the fact that most cops wear combat boots now instead of black loafers for christsakes. Its nonsense. This is a different country than 1950 Mayberry.
While I don’t like seeing children traumatized by a raid like that, does no responsibility fall on the head of the father? My first and foremost function in life is to keep my household safe. That includes from criminals, other interlopers and agents of the government. If that means giving up my childish desire to smoke weed or whatever to avoid the government hammer falling on me, I do it for my family’s sake.
All of that said, the real issue boils down to the justification of these raids in the first place. Marijuana should be legal. It is a waste of time and money fighting over it. Many, many cops believe this. Mind you, I really look down upon people that feel the need to blitz their mind with all kinds of different substances. I think it speaks to a grave weakness of character, but that is my opinion. I have no interest in forcing my way of life onto you. The only valid argument I see against other harder drugs is the “societal cost” one. If you overdose on heroin, it can set into motion a great deal of resources to save your life. Those cost time and money and most junkies don’t foot their own bills in my experience. When you are talking about really nasty stuff like meth, PCP and to a degree coke, these things lead to some really horrible crimes and once again, you will have a very expensive and time consuming response to clean up that mess. I’m still up in the air as far as my personal feelings on dropping the war on drugs altogether. Perhaps if we would be more willing as a society to accept the doctrine that we were founded on more fully…personal freedom requires personal responsibility, then I would be all for it. Too many bleeding hearts would never allow that however.
I am much more in favor of respecting the boundaries of one’s home and property in terms of private behavior. Drug raids in private residences should definitely be reduced drastically and SWAT should be focused almost entirely on its real purpose…preparing for and responding to rare circumstances that are too dangerous and extreme for the line officers to handle. I am glad that this is what my team does. Drug warrants are served by narcotics detectives.
Not always easy to make black and white out of these things.
[/quote]
I didn’t throw any comments with the video because there’s no real question where I stand. I just think it’s worth airing official misconduct. These things need to be seen by the public. But since I enjoy discussing these things with you I’ll add a few words. I don’t know how I feel about putting the blame on the dad. Wouldn’t that be akin to saying that if he buys nice stuff for his family, he’s failed to properly protect them by making his house attractive to thieves? I’m kind of on the fence on this one because I would want to avoid endangering my family, but at the same time cowing down to the state isn’t a great lesson to teach your children. Should John Adams have kept quiet for fear that General Gage may have sent redcoats into his home?
Also, how do we properly assign blame here? We generally agree on the drug war, but don’t SWAT and narc officers share in some of the blame? You cannot pass tyrannical laws without men willing to enforce them. Going beyond drugs for a moment, when the nice police officer comes to arrest me for refusing to buy health insurance or not pay my taxes as a protest, doesn’t that make him every bit the bad guy that Pelosi and crew are? There’s certainly plenty of blame to go around but where does the lion’s share go? I know I vote the right way, but is the drug war partially my fault for willingly paying taxes out of fear of the police officer?
By the way, it’s worth mentioning that I did have a good run-in with our local PD the other day. I was out popping snow studs out of my tires and OC’ing my 1911 in the driveway when a buddy called the PD to do a VIN check on his car which was also in my driveway. I didn’t know he’d done it so I was surprised, but the cop didn’t freak out that I was OC’ing and was really professional. Some of these guys are alright. It bugs me that I can’t trust them, because in another world we’d probably get along awesome.
mike
mike
[quote]JD430 wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]JD430 wrote:
I read some of the other thread and from what I gather, a pitbull was shot dead and the corgi was wounded by accident. That is somewhat more understandable.
The larger question about the war on drugs and the use of SWAT teams to raid a home like this is still the issue. [/quote]
I understand the dog was probably protecting his pack, but I am curious how much drugs were found and do you feel that it was a good thing to do to the family. If the father shot the dog in front of the children , he would have been arrested for child abuse as well as crulty to animals .
How much did they spend on that bust ? How much will they spend on court ?If anybody gets jail , how much will be spent on the incarseration ? Where is the up side ?[/quote]
There are a few things that need to be said as a preface. One is that I have very little information on this case and I think most of you guys are in the same boat. The house and its occupants(the guy I am talking about) don’t “look” dangerous, so we assume that is the case. Truthfully it probably is, but I have come across people that would surprise you. If he had a history of violent crimes, a SWAT team may have been justified purely from a tactical stand point. Next, there is a philosophy in many jurisdictions that SWAT should always serve drug warrants. There are numerous reasons but include justifying a budget for SWAT, getting practice in the real world for team members and most legitimately in my opinion, they are better equipped and trained to make sure no one gets hurt. Before I start hearing bullshit from you guys about how that is not true, keep this in mind…the other option for serving these warrants is a narcotics squad. 99% of the time, those guys don’t have a fraction of the training a SWAT operator does in dominating a structure. I have seen it first hand. It can be harrowing when narc detectives go running around a house like headless chickens screaming “police! search warrant!”. At least with SWAT it is systematic.
While on the topic, way too much is made of the “paramilitary” appearance of SWAT teams. I have a feeling that much of this comes from writers like Radley Balko…a man whose work I am very familiar with. While I think he hits the nail on the head on certain issues, he is often just a crybaby bitch with an anti-police bias that he stokes in others with very tainted information. He decries the fact that most cops wear combat boots now instead of black loafers for christsakes. Its nonsense. This is a different country than 1950 Mayberry.
While I don’t like seeing children traumatized by a raid like that, does no responsibility fall on the head of the father? My first and foremost function in life is to keep my household safe. That includes from criminals, other interlopers and agents of the government. If that means giving up my childish desire to smoke weed or whatever to avoid the government hammer falling on me, I do it for my family’s sake.
All of that said, the real issue boils down to the justification of these raids in the first place. Marijuana should be legal. It is a waste of time and money fighting over it. Many, many cops believe this. Mind you, I really look down upon people that feel the need to blitz their mind with all kinds of different substances. I think it speaks to a grave weakness of character, but that is my opinion. I have no interest in forcing my way of life onto you. The only valid argument I see against other harder drugs is the “societal cost” one. If you overdose on heroin, it can set into motion a great deal of resources to save your life. Those cost time and money and most junkies don’t foot their own bills in my experience. When you are talking about really nasty stuff like meth, PCP and to a degree coke, these things lead to some really horrible crimes and once again, you will have a very expensive and time consuming response to clean up that mess. I’m still up in the air as far as my personal feelings on dropping the war on drugs altogether. Perhaps if we would be more willing as a society to accept the doctrine that we were founded on more fully…personal freedom requires personal responsibility, then I would be all for it. Too many bleeding hearts would never allow that however.
I am much more in favor of respecting the boundaries of one’s home and property in terms of private behavior. Drug raids in private residences should definitely be reduced drastically and SWAT should be focused almost entirely on its real purpose…preparing for and responding to rare circumstances that are too dangerous and extreme for the line officers to handle. I am glad that this is what my team does. Drug warrants are served by narcotics detectives.
Not always easy to make black and white out of these things.
[/quote]
I assume you are a cop, I have met some really good guys that are cops, and I have also met some real assholes trying to prove themselves to them selves. You seem like the former.
I know the law is the law and we should change it and I hope we do so soon. . But the war on drugs has created actions by police that make no sense. Where they traumatize children kill dogs abuse otherwise law abiding citizens just because we have a war going and if anyone participates in the use of drugs we must crush them.
I agree we do not know anything about this case, but I have heard these same things happening at the wrong address.
Again we are back to the point where we know nothing of the case, but I do not believe it would matter to the cops if he had an Oz. of weed, they would feel no remorse for their actions .They would feel totally justified if they even had a small case.
We totally agree with marijuana.
I know it is hard to fathom, because we have lived the majority of our life with this war on drugs. But right now if someone overdoses on heroin, we still pay their bill.
We spend zillions of dollars fighting this war on drugs, from the cops beating the bushes and pulling cars over harassing law abiding citizens, when they do catch some one the cost of prosecution, then the cost of incarceration. Then the prisoner can go to prison and buy his drugs. We have a lot of drugs in prison.
Besides the prison issue, after all the money we dump down this rat hole, you can walk out on any American street and buy any drug you want.
This is the MAIN QUESTION< PLEASE ANSWER THANKS
What did we get for the money and the negative feeling the police created trying to find these drugs?
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
This is the MAIN QUESTION< PLEASE ANSWER THANKS
What did we get for the money and the negative feeling the police created trying to find these drugs?
[/quote]
I think I answered that. If this was all of that guy’s possession of marijuana, society wasted their money. We do it a lot anymore.
Meh. I’d grant libertarian registered voters the right to purchase narcotics legally. Not so for Democrats. I would also be sure to protect people’s right to discriminate against drug-users. For employment, credit, renting, etc
[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
I didn’t throw any comments with the video because there’s no real question where I stand. I just think it’s worth airing official misconduct. These things need to be seen by the public. But since I enjoy discussing these things with you I’ll add a few words. I don’t know how I feel about putting the blame on the dad. Wouldn’t that be akin to saying that if he buys nice stuff for his family, he’s failed to properly protect them by making his house attractive to thieves? I’m kind of on the fence on this one because I would want to avoid endangering my family, but at the same time cowing down to the state isn’t a great lesson to teach your children. Should John Adams have kept quiet for fear that General Gage may have sent redcoats into his home?
[/quote]
I can’t say I see your point there Mike. Making your home attractive to thieves by doing home improvements is a totally different thing than a guy knowingly going out and procuring a substance(or growing it or whatever he was doing) and putting his family at risk in the process. There are a lot of regulations all of us, myself included, would like to ignore. My point is that it is prudent and honorable to care for your family’s safety first.
Comparing this stoner, and his selfish wants, to John Adams is kind of out there. It may be bullshit to send a commando team into a guy’s house to because of weed, but he bears some responsibility for putting his family at risk like that. Perhaps if he was hiding Jews from the Nazis or something, I could forgive the trauma he placed his family through.
I grumble about it as much as anybody, but I play nice with our government as much as I can because I point has come to do otherwise. I know you understand this.
As far as police agents being complicit in this, to a point I can’t argue with you. I can only say that our job entails wide discretion and within limits, the individual officer decides the manner in which he is going to do his job.
Other than that, let’s just say I have had many philosophical battles with myself.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Meh. I’d grant libertarian registered voters the right to purchase narcotics legally. Not so for Democrats. I would also be sure to protect people’s right to discriminate against drug-users. For employment, credit, renting, etc[/quote]
You are going to get assaulted for that statement but there is logic in it.
The other thread is spinning dangerously into circularity.
So everyone here agrees that marijuana should at very least be decriminalized in reasonable quantities?
[quote]Eli B wrote:
The other thread is spinning dangerously into circularity.
So everyone here agrees that marijuana should at very least be decriminalized in reasonable quantities?[/quote]
Only in trade.