[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Sooooooo,
any other topic?[/quote]
Why USAF B-52 Crewmembers Were Created and Did Not Evolve from Simians[/quote]
Hard core fundamentalist or the full retreat mode, meaning micro, not macro, no beneficial mutation and so on? [/quote]
Yep.
Hard core fundamentalist.[/quote]
Well in that case, The Lord created Adam and Eve on the sixth day, the bible says so.
Case closed.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Sooooooo,
any other topic?[/quote]
Why USAF B-52 Crewmembers Were Created and Did Not Evolve from Simians[/quote]
Hard core fundamentalist or the full retreat mode, meaning micro, not macro, no beneficial mutation and so on? [/quote]
Yep.
Hard core fundamentalist.[/quote]
Well in that case, The Lord created Adam and Eve on the sixth day, the bible says so.
Case closed. [/quote]
Fail.
A hard core fundamentalist would never leave a proper noun uncapitalized.[/quote]
I knew that they had strict rules, but… damn…
Also, you fail at attacking my point which I would need to elaborate because as a hardcore fundamentalist I really just made the only point I need to believe.
[quote]squating_bear wrote:
You’re good with logical arguments from multiple angles - you ever done any legal type work?
(if you don’t mind me asking)
[/quote]
Legal training.
Lots of it.
[quote]squating_bear wrote:
God doesn’t exist because if he does then why does he want us to suffer? Wouldn’t that make him evil?
Why doesn’t he show himself? All I ever see is priests asking for money. That’s not justice
Where has he been lately? All I ever hear is stories from the distant past, when people were easier to scare for money, power, and control. Why just up and disappear all of a sudden?
Even if by some strange ultra low probability God actually is real - how are we supposed to tell which one is the real one?
edit:
the operating assumption being that if you don’t believe you obviously go to hell. That’s what the justice and suffering parts are about[/quote]
No, that would be us rejecting his gifts. You might argue that he could have made us in a way that would reduce us to mindless sycophants, it is a testament to his glory that he did not.
Why would he show himself? You not only have the Qu´ran you have the Hadith, the Torah and the Bible? What else do you want, a written invitation, delivered by Gabriel himself?
Who do you think you are?
Up and disappear? He is all around you, acknowledge that or dont.
You are not supposed to be able to tell, you are supposed to believe.
Even if He was not real, what do you have to lose?
This is not a version of Pascals wager either, that is the mere statement of fact that religious people have better marriages, do more to help their fellow men in need and therefore live a better life while creating a world worth living in.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
Good lol’s and thought provoking posts here. Someone give me one and I’ll do my best to get a response in by late tomorrow night. [/quote]
Darwinism as a political movement to undermine traditional morality and to strengthen the state at the expense of organized religion. [/quote]
Oh good lord. That one’s a doozy. But I’ll give it my best shot.[/quote]
Wait a second… I believe Darwinism as the premise to the theory of evolution. I don’t hold to it as a political theory like Ayn Rand and other extreme capitalist. So that’s one I actually agree with.[/quote]
Feminism, a threat to our survival as a nation?
[quote]orion wrote:
Who do you think you are?
Also you might say he’s all around me - but how do we really know that?
Well, if he’s not real then I’ve got a lot of time, money, and effort to lose. Since all I’ve got is one shot at life, these things are extremely valuable to me.
All of those things you listed may be well and good - but that’s just an average of the populace
It would be more efficient for me to just go for those things directly rather than wasting my life going in that direction - hoping that it all leads me somewhere nice
If he is real then I’ve got even more to lose - a soul / eternity in hell.
Problem is that it seems impossible to tell which God is the real one - so the most efficient way is to go with ‘neither’ and hope he either doesn’t exist, or that he’s as nice and forgiving as some say
[quote]squating_bear wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Who do you think you are?
Also you might say he’s all around me - but how do we really know that?
Well, if he’s not real then I’ve got a lot of time, money, and effort to lose. Since all I’ve got is one shot at life, these things are extremely valuable to me.
All of those things you listed may be well and good - but that’s just an average of the populace
It would be more efficient for me to just go for those things directly rather than wasting my life going in that direction - hoping that it all leads me somewhere nice
If he is real then I’ve got even more to lose - a soul / eternity in hell.
Problem is that it seems impossible to tell which God is the real one - so the most efficient is to go with ‘neither’ and hope he either doesn’t exist, or that he’s as nice and forgiving as some say[/quote]
You have several revelations accept them or dont.
Allah has revealed his wishes several times, accounting for human mistakes his ideas how you should treat your fellow man has remained the same.
Those are templates for living a good live and every time you go to a Temple, Church or Mosque you are reminded of what ultimately matters.
Is that just an average assessment of what faith will lead to?
Yes, but makes you think you are so far above average that this does not apply to you?
Again, who do you think you are?
[quote]
Those are templates for living a good live and every time you go to a Temple, Church or Mosque you are reminded of what ultimately matters.
Is that just an average assessment of what faith will lead to?
Yes, but makes you think you are so far above average that this does not apply to you?
Again, who do you think you are?[/quote]
“who do you think you are” really made me laugh
It’s not that orion, it could easily apply to me or anyone else. But these reasons you’ve given are nothing supernatural. Of course those basic commandments are good rules to live by. We all do - except some who go to prison instead
Beyond some very basic level you hit diminishing returns - unless you have some thorough reason to believe in an afterlife and all that.
[quote]orion wrote:
You have several revelations accept them or dont.
Allah has revealed his wishes several times, accounting for human mistakes his ideas how you should treat your fellow man has remained the same. [/quote]
Following basic rules vs. an entire lifestyle which is extremely costly - especially when you consider opportunity costs
We all follow these basic rules as humans, “even” polytheist societies
This has nothing to do with God
[quote]orion wrote:
Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. The suffering on Earth part I can wrap my head around, like a purifying fire. What I don’t get is how this so-called “loving” god created us with the full knowledge that many, probably most of us would end up in Hell, where we would suffer in incommensurable pain, for ALL OF ETERNITY.
And he’s supposed to be the good one? Sounds to me like he and the devil have a pretty good racket set up. God gets to exercise his sadistic desires and, well,so does the devil.
Sorry, if that’s the kind of god Christianity has to offer, I’d just as soon take my chances.
[quote]squating_bear wrote:
[quote]
Those are templates for living a good live and every time you go to a Temple, Church or Mosque you are reminded of what ultimately matters.
Is that just an average assessment of what faith will lead to?
Yes, but makes you think you are so far above average that this does not apply to you?
Again, who do you think you are?[/quote]
“who do you think you are” really made me laugh
It’s not that orion, it could easily apply to me or anyone else. But these reasons you’ve given are nothing supernatural. Of course those basic commandments are good rules to live by. We all do - except some who go to prison instead
Beyond some very basic level you hit diminishing returns - unless you have some thorough reason to believe in an afterlife and all that.
[quote]orion wrote:
You have several revelations accept them or dont.
Allah has revealed his wishes several times, accounting for human mistakes his ideas how you should treat your fellow man has remained the same. [/quote]
Following basic rules vs. an entire lifestyle which is extremely costly - especially when you consider opportunity costs
We all follow these basic rules as humans, “even” polytheist societies
This has nothing to do with God[/quote]
How could they be?
You are a human being, trapped in your own world.
If you want to go beyond that, what is there but faith?
A live full of meaningless dominating other men and fucking several women.
Swell.
If that is your yardstick you win.
Dont know what exactly, but still.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. The suffering on Earth part I can wrap my head around, like a purifying fire. What I don’t get is how this so-called “loving” god created us with the full knowledge that many, probably most of us would end up in Hell, where we would suffer in incommensurable pain, for ALL OF ETERNITY.
And he’s supposed to be the good one? Sounds to me like he and the devil have a pretty good racket set up. God gets to exercise his sadistic desires and, well,so does the devil.
Sorry, if that’s the kind of god Christianity has to offer, I’d just as soon take my chances.
[/quote]
Well, hell is not so much an eternal fire where Lucifer sticks a fork in your butt for all eternity but a place where you are separated from God for all eternity?
What would be the problem if He does not exist?
I am disappoint.
I was looking forward to making my case against evolution and pushharder does not want to play.
Meh…
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. The suffering on Earth part I can wrap my head around, like a purifying fire. What I don’t get is how this so-called “loving” god created us with the full knowledge that many, probably most of us would end up in Hell, where we would suffer in incommensurable pain, for ALL OF ETERNITY.
And he’s supposed to be the good one? Sounds to me like he and the devil have a pretty good racket set up. God gets to exercise his sadistic desires and, well,so does the devil.
Sorry, if that’s the kind of god Christianity has to offer, I’d just as soon take my chances.
[/quote]
The possibility of damnation is a small price to pay for the ability to choose good over evil. Without free will, human achievements–and therefore the human experience itself–are worthless.
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. The suffering on Earth part I can wrap my head around, like a purifying fire. What I don’t get is how this so-called “loving” god created us with the full knowledge that many, probably most of us would end up in Hell, where we would suffer in incommensurable pain, for ALL OF ETERNITY.
And he’s supposed to be the good one? Sounds to me like he and the devil have a pretty good racket set up. God gets to exercise his sadistic desires and, well,so does the devil.
Sorry, if that’s the kind of god Christianity has to offer, I’d just as soon take my chances.
[/quote]
The possibility of damnation is a small price to pay for the ability to choose good over evil. Without free will, human achievements–and therefore the human experience itself–are worthless.
[/quote]
Solid, and I believe this to be true.
There is no freedom unless you can fuck up, sometimes terribly.
Damn. This thread went from mocking to great in 4 pages. Orion is solidly able to angle very differently on different subjects, also props to smh and Cortes for their abilities. Finally, the Catholic post from Tirib was really, solidly well done on the “other side”. wow.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. The suffering on Earth part I can wrap my head around, like a purifying fire. What I don’t get is how this so-called “loving” god created us with the full knowledge that many, probably most of us would end up in Hell, where we would suffer in incommensurable pain, for ALL OF ETERNITY.
And he’s supposed to be the good one? Sounds to me like he and the devil have a pretty good racket set up. God gets to exercise his sadistic desires and, well,so does the devil.
Sorry, if that’s the kind of god Christianity has to offer, I’d just as soon take my chances.
[/quote]
The possibility of damnation is a small price to pay for the ability to choose good over evil. Without free will, human achievements–and therefore the human experience itself–are worthless.
[/quote]
Solid, and I believe this to be true.
There is no freedom unless you can fuck up, sometimes terribly. [/quote]
Haha! That’s hilarious, I was literally just about to post, “Wow. That’s a pretty good point. You win.”
I’m honestly not sure if I can come up with a counter argument for this and deliver it with a straight face.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. The suffering on Earth part I can wrap my head around, like a purifying fire. What I don’t get is how this so-called “loving” god created us with the full knowledge that many, probably most of us would end up in Hell, where we would suffer in incommensurable pain, for ALL OF ETERNITY.
And he’s supposed to be the good one? Sounds to me like he and the devil have a pretty good racket set up. God gets to exercise his sadistic desires and, well,so does the devil.
Sorry, if that’s the kind of god Christianity has to offer, I’d just as soon take my chances.
[/quote]
The possibility of damnation is a small price to pay for the ability to choose good over evil. Without free will, human achievements–and therefore the human experience itself–are worthless.
[/quote]
Solid, and I believe this to be true.
There is no freedom unless you can fuck up, sometimes terribly. [/quote]
Haha! That’s hilarious, I was literally just about to post, “Wow. That’s a pretty good point. You win.”
I’m honestly not sure if I can come up with a counter argument for this and deliver it with a straight face.
[/quote]
Easy.
The most terrible things are not done by people who believe to do evil, they believe that they must do terrible things for the greater good.
The point that God did not want us to be automatons is valid, but why did he not give us the ability to see clearly when we lie to ourselves?
That way we would actually know when we choose evil, so there would be a real choice.
I actually sit on the fence on this issue, but this here thread is the one to make the argument in:
Repeal the 19th amendment:
The orthodox wisdom of our day and age is the the right to vote was a big step toward a more egalitarian society and that empowering women ultimately benefits us all.
But was it?
It was hailed as a big discovery when science was able to strongly support the idea that women are more emotionally intelligent than men, which they indeed are. The are better able to put themselves into another persons shoes, they read body language better, they read faces better, the get more out of the inflections of a voice so women are indeed far superior in that area to men.
IN SMALL GROUPS.
However, in large semi anonymous or entirely anonymous settings those instincts fail them, they are largely useless, like night vision in daylight and yet they seem to rely on them anyway.
Men on the other hand when encountering such an anonymous group instinctively arrange themselves into hierarchies and they cooperate not by consensus, but by competing, mostly, peacefully.
It is interesting to note that child birth, an area that was a predominantly female domain, was infinitely improved when men took it over. Death of the mother or the child during giving birth was all but abolished when it had been quite common and there is little pain involved unless the mother asks for it.
This is an example of one area where male instincts and a distinctly male way of doing things were, and are, superior to that of women.
Arguably the whole idea of a public space where you can walk around safely, even as a child or a woman is an entirely male construct, with its abstract rules, its infrastructure and its hierarchical order.
It was Hajek who pointed out that socialism as well as democratic socialism aka liberalism was an attempt to use instincts that work well in a family or a small group to model whole societies for which they are not really well suited.
What he failed to point out was that those are predominantly female instincts, hence the tendency in most cultures for the women to govern the home and the men to work in the public space. That was neither oppression nor condescension, this was the implicit acknowledgment that women as well as men have their strengths and weaknesses and the attempt to assign roles where those abilities were used best.
If we accept these premises, it is no coincidence that the nanny state begun when women were granted the right to vote and that it gained momentum when women started to rebel against their traditional roles.
It is precisely that nanny states that ruins us now financially and lets busy bodies and do gooders lord over us, using our own money to tell us at gunpoint what to do.
While some changes were in order, mostly due to the fact that most jobs no longer are basically back breaking labor, the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.
When it comes to procreation and the family, aka the world people actually live in, we live in a matriarchy, created by women and men who pander to female voters.
If she wants the marriage to end, she automatically gets the kids, part of his salary to support them and half his stuff on top of it and, while she most likely is not better off financially, she can now spend all the money however she likes.
On the other hand, a man who wants a divorce risks utter financial, emotional and social ruin.
Is it any wonder that 70% of all divorces are filed by women?
Is it any wonder that a significant number of men do not wish to marry and to have this sword hanging over their heads?
If you look at the “grasseater” movement in Japan a sizeable junk of young Japanese men are simply going John Galt on their traditional male role. A large portion of 16 to 19 year olds are not even interested in sex!
Why would they be, its a trap.
Unfortunately, no society can survive when enough men simply go on a reproductive strike and Japan is leading when it comes to the overaging of societies.
Even in France and Sweden, Sweden having adopted feminism as a state religion, the numbers are not as they appear at first.
Yes, they are at, or close to, numbers that can sustain their population.
However 25% of all “Swedish” children are only “Swedish” in the sense that they were born their, meaning, Sweden has to import people who either are not indoctrinated by the Swedish value system or come from societies where it never occurred to them that they would shoot themselves into the foot if they ever signed the civil contract called marriage.
It will not take long, before Sweden will only stay Sweden in name only.
Yes, the fjords will still be there but the Swedes will be a minority in their own country, with all the largely unwanted consequences that will follow and are in part already here.
To summarize, feminism is a self defeating ideology, both financially and demographically and it has the very real potential to bring our cultures down with it when it croaks.
Arguably feminism is not even good for women, because the societies that will follow will hardly be free republics.
Finally, a quote attributed to Aristotle:
“Masculine republics degrade into feminine democracies, and from there slide into despotism.”
You all know where we are now, you all know what must follow.
Repeal the 19th ammendment.