[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
I didn’t see his name listed.[/quote]
Even if the article had listed the names of all nine thousand UN and African Union workers providing relief, and even if Lixy’s name had been listed, would you have recognized it?
I mean, I didn’t see a “Dr. Skeptix” listed among the members of the Disaster Medical Assistance Teams that cared for the victims of Hurricane Katrina, either, but that doesn’t mean a damn thing.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
I didn’t see his name listed.
Even if the article had listed the names of all nine thousand UN and African Union workers providing relief, and even if Lixy’s name had been listed, would you have recognized it?[/quote]
True, V, you have caught the illogic of my post.
Now, did you catch the obsessive and disruptive illogic of Lixy’s post “in response” to pat earlier today?
Where he/she/it posts some piece of incongruous moralizing, I reserve the same right.
When he/she/it examines this hypocrisy, I will also.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
I didn’t see his name listed.
Even if the article had listed the names of all nine thousand UN and African Union workers providing relief, and even if Lixy’s name had been listed, would you have recognized it?
I mean, I didn’t see a “Dr. Skeptix” listed among the members of the Disaster Medical Assistance Teams that cared for the victims of Hurricane Katrina, either, but that doesn’t mean a damn thing.[/quote]
Oops. Cross-posting.
And you snuck in a little bite, eh?
Well. yes, of course, I maintain anonymity. And when you come visit with me, I will invite you to see what little I do, every day of my life, for years on end, and then I will welcome your judgment, as I do now.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
I didn’t see his name listed.
Even if the article had listed the names of all nine thousand UN and African Union workers providing relief, and even if Lixy’s name had been listed, would you have recognized it?
I mean, I didn’t see a “Dr. Skeptix” listed among the members of the Disaster Medical Assistance Teams that cared for the victims of Hurricane Katrina, either, but that doesn’t mean a damn thing.
Oops. Cross-posting.
And you snuck in a little bite, eh?
Well. yes, of course, I maintain anonymity. And when you come visit with me, I will invite you to see what little I do, every day of my life, for years on end, and then I will welcome your judgment, as I do now.[/quote]
No offense intended, Doc. I know you do what you can, and that it’s a damned sight more than most folks will ever do. Highest regards.
[quote]Molotov_Coktease wrote:
… Mommy to be should carry that baby full term and then give it up for adoption I suppose? I don’t suppose you’ll ever know the personal ramifications of such a situation. … [/quote]
We know it is better than being murdered.
[quote]lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
To me cutting up and sucking out, piece by piece, a baby out of a mother’s womb is the same as somebody walking up to you with a .44 Magnum and blowing your head off.
So you’re mad that women demand the right to get rid of what they consider parasites leeching off their hard earned nutrients and possibly defacing their figure, but are complacent when it comes to wars of aggression that kill countless innocents?[/quote]
You consider human life a parasite? It does not matter what you think things are. It matters only what they are in actuality.
Besides I have never seen parasites of the same genus use each other as a host.
I am not complacent over killing of any kind. The sheer numbers 1.2 million a year, dictate that killing a human fetus is a more important issue than the war.
[quote]Molotov_Coktease wrote:
pat wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
pat wrote:
Potential people have no rights. Of course, there is no such thing as a potential person. “It” either is or is not a person. The immorality or morality of birth control is not a factor as birth control and the taking of a human life are clearly not the same things.
So I assume you believe that abortion doctors should get near life sentences for murder II? And the mothers who get illegal abortions, or take illegal morning after pills, I assume they’ll be getting >40 years for premeditated murder yes?
Actually the doctors know exactly what they are doing so I’d give them murder I, before the mothers who could be duped, fooled or just flat uneducated about what they are doing.
My contention is that abortion is the taking of a human life. A willful act of taking a human life is constituted as murder. So yes, the charges should be the same.
To me cutting up and sucking out, piece by piece, a baby out of a mother’s womb is the same as somebody walking up to you with a .44 Magnum and blowing your head off.
You have to ask yourself, what constitutes the definition of what a human being is. Then see if those traits do not apply to a human fetus. What makes a person a person?
So…Pat. It has to be asked. What of the ‘murdering’ mothers to be who have been raped and saddled with the seed of their assailant? Mommy to be should carry that baby full term and then give it up for adoption I suppose? I don’t suppose you’ll ever know the personal ramifications of such a situation. Do you think the government should force this woman to carry the child full term? I guess hey why not…why stop with just the one victimization that occurred when she had no choice in conception. Personal liberties indeed. [/quote]
Does how a person got in to the womb make it less of a person? Are people more or less of a person based on the way they were conceived?
I am sorry for those who have been sexually assaulted by others. Personally, I’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, but the logic doesn’t fit. Method of conception does not determine the worth of a person.
[quote]pat wrote:
I am sorry for those who have been sexually assaulted by others. Personally, I’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, but the logic doesn’t fit. Method of conception does not determine the worth of a person.[/quote]
You’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, because you know you would not possess the emotional fortitude to even overcome the assault…much less introduce a life it produced. Yet you expect that of a woman who is a victim of incest or rape. I don’t care for your cowardly convictions nor your expectations sir.
[quote]Molotov_Coktease wrote:
pat wrote:
I am sorry for those who have been sexually assaulted by others. Personally, I’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, but the logic doesn’t fit. Method of conception does not determine the worth of a person.
You’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, because you know you would not possess the emotional fortitude to even overcome the assault…much less introduce a life it produced. Yet you expect that of a woman who is a victim of incest or rape. I don’t care for your cowardly convictions nor your expectations sir. [/quote]
I don’t give a damn what you care for. Facts are facts, refute them with facts or shut up.
[quote]pat wrote:
Molotov_Coktease wrote:
pat wrote:
I am sorry for those who have been sexually assaulted by others. Personally, I’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, but the logic doesn’t fit. Method of conception does not determine the worth of a person.
You’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, because you know you would not possess the emotional fortitude to even overcome the assault…much less introduce a life it produced. Yet you expect that of a woman who is a victim of incest or rape. I don’t care for your cowardly convictions nor your expectations sir.
I don’t give a damn what you care for. Facts are facts, refute them with facts or shut up.[/quote]
I gave you the uncomfortable truth. Choke on it.
[quote]pat wrote:
Molotov_Coktease wrote:
pat wrote:
I am sorry for those who have been sexually assaulted by others. Personally, I’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, but the logic doesn’t fit. Method of conception does not determine the worth of a person.
You’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, because you know you would not possess the emotional fortitude to even overcome the assault…much less introduce a life it produced. Yet you expect that of a woman who is a victim of incest or rape. I don’t care for your cowardly convictions nor your expectations sir.
I don’t give a damn what you care for. Facts are facts, refute them with facts or shut up.[/quote]
Your facts are in fact legal definitions that conveniently would have the outcome you desire, were they the definitions of the majority.
Yet, human life, legal persons and a lump of cells are not necessarily the same thing.
Is an embryo an organism?
[quote]Molotov_Coktease wrote:
pat wrote:
Molotov_Coktease wrote:
pat wrote:
I am sorry for those who have been sexually assaulted by others. Personally, I’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, but the logic doesn’t fit. Method of conception does not determine the worth of a person.
You’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, because you know you would not possess the emotional fortitude to even overcome the assault…much less introduce a life it produced. Yet you expect that of a woman who is a victim of incest or rape. I don’t care for your cowardly convictions nor your expectations sir.
I don’t give a damn what you care for. Facts are facts, refute them with facts or shut up.
I gave you the uncomfortable truth. Choke on it.[/quote]
LOL! A truth? You can save your emotional diatribes for your next N.O.W. meeting. The question is a simple one, does the manner in which a person is conceived have an impact on how much of a �??person�?? that person is?
[quote]orion wrote:
pat wrote:
Molotov_Coktease wrote:
pat wrote:
I am sorry for those who have been sexually assaulted by others. Personally, I’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, but the logic doesn’t fit. Method of conception does not determine the worth of a person.
You’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, because you know you would not possess the emotional fortitude to even overcome the assault…much less introduce a life it produced. Yet you expect that of a woman who is a victim of incest or rape. I don’t care for your cowardly convictions nor your expectations sir.
I don’t give a damn what you care for. Facts are facts, refute them with facts or shut up.
Your facts are in fact legal definitions that conveniently would have the outcome you desire, were they the definitions of the majority.
Yet, human life, legal persons and a lump of cells are not necessarily the same thing.
[/quote]
I am not worried about a “legal” definition. Legal definitions can change. I can own a roach clip and not own pot, that’s the law for you.
Is an “embryo”, “fetus”, “lump of cells”, etc, what ever you wish to call it, a human person sometime between conception and 40 weeks of age? Not according to a law, but in reality.
Ironically, killing a pregnant woman is considered a double homicide. Again, that’s the law for you.
[quote]pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
Molotov_Coktease wrote:
pat wrote:
I am sorry for those who have been sexually assaulted by others. Personally, I’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, but the logic doesn’t fit. Method of conception does not determine the worth of a person.
You’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, because you know you would not possess the emotional fortitude to even overcome the assault…much less introduce a life it produced. Yet you expect that of a woman who is a victim of incest or rape. I don’t care for your cowardly convictions nor your expectations sir.
I don’t give a damn what you care for. Facts are facts, refute them with facts or shut up.
Your facts are in fact legal definitions that conveniently would have the outcome you desire, were they the definitions of the majority.
Yet, human life, legal persons and a lump of cells are not necessarily the same thing.
I am not worried about a “legal” definition. Legal definitions can change. I can own a roach clip and not own pot, that’s the law for you.
Is an “embryo”, “fetus”, “lump of cells”, etc, what ever you wish to call it, a human person sometime between conception and 40 weeks of age? Not according to a law, but in reality.
Ironically, killing a pregnant woman is considered a double homicide. Again, that’s the law for you.[/quote]
You should be worried about legal definitions because all that laws is, is words interpreted by someone.
In the end you feel embryos are persons and others feel there is a difference.
There are words to describe the two positions but no magical definitions or conclusions to explain them away.
What happened to the voting? Can you people ever stay on track?
[quote]pat wrote:
I am not complacent over killing of any kind. The sheer numbers 1.2 million a year, dictate that killing a human fetus is a more important issue than the war.[/quote]
If we could make abortions impossible, what would we do with those 1.2 million unwanted children every year?
Is there enough adoption demand for them?
What if the mother is unable to pay for pre- and post-natal care? Would you be willing to foot their medical bills? Their schooling/education? What about the mother herself?
I’m readily in favor of anything that could reduce abortions; but I note that many, if not most, of the “pro-lifers” never consider what happens to the child after it is born. It seems sufficient to ensure he makes it out the birth canal alive, and then nobody cares what happens after.
[quote]pat wrote:
Personally, I’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, but the logic doesn’t fit.[/quote]
If you consider sexual assault worse than being killed, can you not imagine that others might feel the same?
Imagine being reminded of it every day for nine months, if not more…
[quote]pookie wrote:
pat wrote:
I am not complacent over killing of any kind. The sheer numbers 1.2 million a year, dictate that killing a human fetus is a more important issue than the war.
If we could make abortions impossible, what would we do with those 1.2 million unwanted children every year?
Is there enough adoption demand for them?
What if the mother is unable to pay for pre- and post-natal care? Would you be willing to foot their medical bills? Their schooling/education? What about the mother herself?
I’m readily in favor of anything that could reduce abortions; but I note that many, if not most, of the “pro-lifers” never consider what happens to the child after it is born. It seems sufficient to ensure he makes it out the birth canal alive, and then nobody cares what happens after.
[/quote]
None of which speaks to what the fetus is. Say, for the sake of argument only, that I am right and it is a person. Does it matter that we don’t have a plan as to what to do with them? If I am wrong it doesn’t anyway. Is not having a plan as to what to do with somebody justify killing them off.
What do we do with them, I don’t know, maybe make the people who fucked responsible for it?
Responsibility for ones actions, now that is an idea whose time has come!
[quote]pookie wrote:
pat wrote:
Personally, I’d rather be killed than sexually assaulted, but the logic doesn’t fit.
If you consider sexual assault worse than being killed, can you not imagine that others might feel the same?
Imagine being reminded of it every day for nine months, if not more…
[/quote]
Well, I am a man and having anything stuck in my ass I find unappealing. Which is usually the way it goes if you are male. I can’t think of a worse thing than having your corn-hole torn to bits.If I were to be sexually assaulted by a female, who knows how I’d feel; guess it depends on what she looked like. 
I was trying to be sympathetic, a move that apparently backfired. However, the question of whether that “thing” hanging out in the uterus is a person or not is the question, not how it got there.
In the end, rape accounts for a very small number of abortions anyway. I would concede these few for the sake of the many that are merely a matter of convenience.
I think, to answer the question, we have to define what a person is. So pook, what is your definition of a person? What makes a human being a human being? No bullshit.
For the record,I asked first…