T-Nation Atheists

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
gojira wrote:
I don’t believe in any invisible entity having control over the universe or our lives.

I don’t believe in miracles.

I don’t believe in the supernatural.

I don’t believe in an afterlife.

I don’t believe I have anymore of a “soul” than an earthworm does.

I’m sure Jesus was a great guy, but just a human guy with some idealistic ideas on how people should live together. Same with Mohammed, Jehovah, etc.

Humans need to feel they are above the natural world and won’t die and decompose and return to the earth like the rest of the organisms on this planet. They like to think they are superior so they have made up this whole “created in God’s image” thing.

They fall easy prey to the promises of an afterlife and the idea that some super being is responsible for all the joy and pain in the world and that there is “a plan” for each of us. It’s a great way to control the masses. And that is what religion is all about - control.

I believe in nature. I believe in a natural order of life. I believe in natural selection.

If you want to give that a name and worship it, more power to ya. But don’t waste your time praying for me to some imaginary superbeing.

You live your life the way you want let me live mine the way I want.

Freedom of religion also includes freedom from religion.

What about souls? That’s my great sticking point. Humans are above animals.

No other animal has the luck or curse of rational thought, no other animal knows that it will die. No other animal has morals, or the complexity that the human mind has.

There’s the old thing about energy not being able to be destroyed- how would you account for the energy that is given off when a human dies?

What about accounts of ghosts and hauntings? There are things that happen that are just to strange to be explained away by science.

Thoughts?[/quote]

I personally believe in God. At times I do have my doubts. But I do not agree I believe animals use reason in their thinking process. I also believe animals have a code of conduct that is either acceptable or not. I had a Boston terrier that I had to have put down I believe it was more than my conscience and that he knew what I was doing.
As far as being the most complex animal I will give you that one. At the time we are at the top of the food chain.

142

[quote]Mordred wrote:
haney wrote:
Logically unconvincing would make it logical to say “I dunno” to say he doesn’t exist is to take the negative.

In that case I must now say “I dunno” to any random claim that has no logically convincing evidence. See the Flying Spaghetti Monster…although my personal favorite was always the invisible purple polka-dotted manatees that live below the surface of the moon and control all things throughout the universe.
[/quote]
You won’t get a logical argument about these topics from me.

I am only waving common usage because it is hard enough as is to interpret what some people “mean” on the internet with out them not using the technical meaning of words.

[quote]
Here is a good reason why I think that definition of atheism is a bad one. We now have four subgroups to deal with here, theists, agnostics, weak atheists, and strong atheists. We can do something much simpler and more descriptive. A theist believes in a god. An atheist does not believe in a god. An agnostic does not believe that the existance of a god can be proven or disproven. Agnosticism was not originally some middle ground between theism and atheism at it is currently used as.

[quote]
That is what I thought all those terms meant anyway. The problem is somewhere agnostics leaning towards atheism, and atheists leaning towards agnosticism blurred the lines and came up with weak atheism and strong atheism. Just like theist who believe in God but don’t know which one mess up the definition of agnostic.

[quote]
Now, who in this thread has said that they believe that no god exists. Did I just miss it or something? Where are these “strong” atheists? I see a bunch of atheists calling themselves agnostics (though they might actually be agnostics as well) and a bunch of atheists trying to educate people on a proper definition of the word atheism.[/quote]

I have seen a few who have said anyone who believes in God is a fool. That would imply strong atheism, as it allows no room for gray which the weak atheist has.

143

[quote]Gunitgansta wrote:
Now to those athiests why don’t you provide a proof that God dosen’t exist? If you cant provide any then STFU
[/quote]

You cannot prove a negative…

No you can?t…

Never ever…

Which is why just claiming something that is not falsifiable and then expecting people to knock it down is a big nono…

Prove to me Jesus was not gay…

144

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Honestly dude, no gives a rats ass about your personal experiences with God. Go tell the other Christians on here, maybe they give a fuck.

Now fuck off![/quote]

Experience is a form of proof. Empirical evidence is merely a form of proof.

You seems to be extremely ignorant on this subject. I suggest you read up the works by Richard Swinburne

145

[quote]Gunitgansta wrote:
Experience is a form of proof. Empirical evidence is merely a form of proof.

You seems to be extremely ignorant on this subject. I suggest you read up the works by Richard Swinburne
[/quote]
Empirical evidence only works in metaphysics…and thus is not the proof “us science types” are after. Yeah, we’re that picky.

146

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
grey wrote:
who believe in God and a soul.
The one thing that I cannot understand for the life of me is mans penchant for doing evil. Where does it come from?
Are there evil animals? If not why?
Is the difference in the soul?

Do you believe there is a separation between man and animals? I don?t. I believe right now we are the top animal. I do not believe you or I would have the wisdom to judge if an animal were evil or not.

Great question.

Are there evil animals…when a dog bites, people just say there is something wrong with him.

As we’ve seen over and over again, evil takes on a different meaning depending where you go.

To some, Bush is evil, to some Clinton, to some Guevara.

Whats the seperation between animals and humans? Same as I said before- there is no Nietzsche in the wolfpack going “fuck the pack, I’m running shit now”.
[/quote]

147

[quote]grey wrote:
What I did in fact mention was the interesting fact that so many people who lead a very agnostic lifestyle for one reason or another start to believe in god when they see that their days are numbered.
I find it to be an amusing element of human nature.
[/quote]

I find it amusing as well. I think it is a result of people’s inability to accept their own mortality combined with their fear of the unknown (death).

Religion is a belief system, gays are people. Arguing ‘against’ people is not the same as asserting that a set of beliefs is logically inconsistent.

148

[quote]beaul wrote:
I have never had a logic class. Why would I need a logic class to know that “someone” didn’t wave a magic wand and create this beautiful place we have here called Earth. And not to mention “He/She/It” did the deed in 7 days.

Please explain how believing in a higher being is logical.

I suppose you believe in the magic shows you see on TV?

Watch while I pull a universe out of my ass and you shall all hail me the mighty “god”.[/quote]

2 Peter 11, 12:

Those people speak evil about things they don’t understand. They are like wild animals. They do what comes naturally to them. They are born only to be caught and destroyed. Just like animals, they too will die.

Angels are stronger and more powerful than those people. But even angels don’t bring to the Lord evil charges against heavenly beings.

149

I apologize in advance if my post is off topic. But as it the case with these threads they seem to have a life of their own. By the time I get my thoughts out the thread has usually gone down another road altogether.

I think most people choose not to believe in God for the same reason most people are fat and out of shape, because they are too lazy to really look into the matter and too undisciplined to actually apply the principles they learn consistently enough to produce positive results in their lives.

Religion like fitness is a life long journey not a passing fancy. After all, you wouldn’t expect to grow muscles with one workout, how can you expect to know God by going to church one Sunday afternoon?

But alas, I realize that there are many reasons why people fail to see the value of spirituality just like people fail to see the value of good health. I don’t see the necessity of attempting to debate all of the issues that face spiritual pursuits, but the rational mind needs to consider that excessive or extreme training and diet can damage one’s health (i.e. professional bodybuilding) just as extremes in pursuit of spiritual goals can do the same (i.e. religious fundamentalism).

It would seem to me that the logical mind would pursue learning more about the subject and its application, perhaps speaking with other people who follow a particular religion or workout, and applying the principles learned in a progressive manner, then evaluating the results, keeping in mind that belief systems, like workouts and diets, are very personal experiences.

So to the crux of my post, it disturbs me when people hop on these threads about religion or any topic for that matter and voice opinions based on nothing substantive. Which is why I thought today’s Strong Words was quite apropos for this post;

“Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a good carpenter to build one.” --Sam Rayburn

150

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

As we’ve seen over and over again, evil takes on a different meaning depending where you go.

To some, Bush is evil, to some Clinton, to some Guevara.

[/quote]

Some evils are the same everywhere…
murder, rape, greed…
Both the believer and the non-believer would probably feel the same way about these things.

151

[quote]ZEB wrote:
beaul wrote:
I have never had a logic class. Why would I need a logic class to know that “someone” didn’t wave a magic wand and create this beautiful place we have here called Earth. And not to mention “He/She/It” did the deed in 7 days.

Please explain how believing in a higher being is logical.

I suppose you believe in the magic shows you see on TV?

Watch while I pull a universe out of my ass and you shall all hail me the mighty “god”.

2 Peter 11, 12:

Those people speak evil about things they don’t understand. They are like wild animals. They do what comes naturally to them. They are born only to be caught and destroyed. Just like animals, they too will die.

Angels are stronger and more powerful than those people. But even angels don’t bring to the Lord evil charges against heavenly beings.
[/quote]

Anyone can write a book and put stupid made up sayings in it. It doesn’t make it true.

And I quote from my book “The new Testical”

Beau 5, 12:

"He who believes in stupid shit and puts faith in non-existent beings shall be royally disapointed when they die, never having lived life for themselves only for a being that didn’t exist. "

When you DIE, YOU DIE. you don’t get magical powers and walk in a “heaven” holding hands with Michael Jackson. sorry to dissapoint you.

152

[quote]orion wrote:
Even if all you “theists” are right and that logically you cannot deny that there might be a god, that is still very very far away from “10 commandments/messiah/trinity” Jehova.
[/quote]

True but it does take away the “I use logic to not believe” argument.

If the important things in the Bible are true, then it kind of can be reduced down.

True, but imagine there is a being who is not prime mover. Looks like we are where we started.

153

[quote]ConanSpeaks wrote:
I think most people choose not to believe in God for the same reason most people are fat and out of shape, because they are too lazy to really look into the matter and too undisciplined to actually apply the principles they learn consistently enough to produce positive results in their lives.
[/quote]
You could say the same thing about people who choose faith over critical thinking. I find people who accept the lies of dogma to be lazy non-thinkers.

This is not to say I think science is the only way. Science is taken blindly as fact by many people simply because it is hard. I can be told that the measurement of ‘G’ is such and such a number but in order to prove it to within a certain order of magnitude requires diligence, precision, and uncanny discipline in the lab. Many people aren’t initiated enough to explore their universe on their own nor would they have the slightest thought as to how to begin this process.

154

[quote]ZEB wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
How about agnostic? Or those that think philisophically about whether or not God exists?

I think pure atheists are very few and far between.

Interesting comment my friend.

I worked in a nursing home once and I never once saw a dying atheist.

Odd huh?[/quote]

true.

atheists seem very few and far between.

Is it possible that the majority of atheists come form highly educated backgrounds?

I had someone say to me that they would pray for me as i identified myself as an atheist. I really wanted to go off on one, but for some reason i didn’t. Maybe it was because she was 80!

The ironic thing was that she said her life would have been empty, but then told me she had lost most of her sight, and her marbles!

Said it all to me.

155

[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
haney wrote:
I post because I find it much more entertaining, and rewarding to discuss this stuff with an opposing belief. I also get sucked in when someone starts claiming stuff a stand point of historical authority that may not be true.

A side from that don’t you know the party is in hell! I can’t get in so I am just going to hang around the waiting line with all the cool people.

You can’t get in? Hey, it’s easy! Just say “Jesus Tap-Dancing Christ in a Goddamn Motherfucking Taxicab” and then say “Today is not Tuesday”. There, you’re a liar and a blasphemer! See you at the party man!! (hehe)
[/quote]

Only a true friend would make sure I made it to Hell!

156

[quote]orion wrote:
Even if all you “theists” are right and that logically you cannot deny that there might be a god, that is still very very far away from “10 commandments/messiah/trinity” Jehova.

The problem cannot be reduced to there is no god OR everything the bible claims is true.

Imagine there is an entity we would, for a lack of a better term, call a god and he just was some sort of prime mover and otherwise does not give a shit.

No heaven, no hell, no weird interest in homosexuality…

Then we heathen atheists would technically be wrong but for all practical purposes be right…

[/quote]

The history of mankind knows different kinds of gods, like the vain bearded guy, about whom the majority seem to be talking about, then there is deus otiosus, the god who gave the original nudge and haven’t interfered since, there’s numinosum, the one who can’t be spoken of since numinosum can be described only with negatives, there’s the panteistic god who recides in every single atom in the universe, there’s the trickster, who really don’t care about anything else but having a good time, there’s pantheism, a splendid show of teamwork like in the greek pantheon…

And then there’s Crom who laughes at you from his mountain.
In a more serious vain, William James’ book “Varieties of Religious Experience” from 1902 is still as fresh as ever. Belief is not about dogma, it’s about experience. Atheism is belief,too.

157

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The Mage wrote:
…

Vocal atheists embarrass me quite a bit, and I am convinced they are not true atheists, but people who are pissed off with God. (They prayed for a pony and didn’t get one.)
…

Well said. [/quote]

Would the antethesis be vocal religious zealouts are in fact closet atheists.

bollocks.

Those that are voiciferous may just be fed up of feeling that there is a mad majority that make it necessary to “respect” somones beliefs.

I do not respect someones beliefs if they seem nonsenscicle. Sure, go for your life, but let me have the freedom to say as such without some black cloud of shame descending

158

[quote]Gunitgansta wrote:
I can’t believe those intellectually challenged who deny God exists. If you havent seen a nuclear bomb, does it mean it doesnt exist?

Do you have any proof that shows God doesnt exist? On teh contrary there are many evidences that show God exists, namely, the intracacies of the universe and all the little signs of designs around us.

On evolution: some really famous guy commented: I used to think God was great as he made everything, now God has been shown to be even greater when he can make things make themselves.

People should really use their god given brains more[/quote]

wow, some really famous guy…must be correct.

When people see things that are so well evolved it is easy to mistake that for design, as you have.

I really want to see the cogent argument for that one.

159

[quote]beaul wrote:
ZEB wrote:
beaul wrote:
I have never had a logic class. Why would I need a logic class to know that “someone” didn’t wave a magic wand and create this beautiful place we have here called Earth. And not to mention “He/She/It” did the deed in 7 days.

Please explain how believing in a higher being is logical.

I suppose you believe in the magic shows you see on TV?

Watch while I pull a universe out of my ass and you shall all hail me the mighty “god”.

2 Peter 11, 12:

Those people speak evil about things they don’t understand. They are like wild animals. They do what comes naturally to them. They are born only to be caught and destroyed. Just like animals, they too will die.

Angels are stronger and more powerful than those people. But even angels don’t bring to the Lord evil charges against heavenly beings.

Anyone can write a book and put stupid made up sayings in it. It doesn’t make it true.

And I quote from my book “The new Testical”

Beau 5, 12:

"He who believes in stupid shit and puts faith in non-existent beings shall be royally disapointed when they die, never having lived life for themselves only for a being that didn’t exist. "

When you DIE, YOU DIE. you don’t get magical powers and walk in a “heaven” holding hands with Michael Jackson. sorry to dissapoint you.
[/quote]

Bro, on what do you base your belief that no God or higher power exists?

160

I’m wondering, from what I’m seeing, if non-theists should be attempting to convert people away from religion in the Christians thread.

Hmmm?