[quote]Mordred wrote:
haney wrote:
I keep seeing that Atheists base their life on Logic.
I am curious though how many have taken a logic class?
You know that Atheism takes the negative by saying God does not exist, and in logic taking the negative is defying logic?
Have you read any of this thread at all?
I have taken logic classes. Atheism is the lack of a belief in a god and does not necessarily assert a negative. Theism asserts a positive and thus the burden of proof is upon it.
Claim: a god exists
Evidence: inconclusive at best, definately logically unconvincing
Result: it is logical not to believe the claim that a god exists.
[/quote]
Nor is it logical to claim god does not exist.
The only logical stance is that there is not enough evidence to form a conclusion either way.
I actually do believe that this useless life we live on this tiny little planet in this small galaxy cannot be all there is. At least that’s what I want to believe.
[/quote]
You seem to get extremely angry and sarcastic when confronting a group of people who do not share your beliefs. I saw this on one of the many ‘gay’ threads as well.
It would be great if you actually tried to ‘love thy neighbour’ instead of going on contempt-filled rants that make you look like a total hypocrite.
What really gets to me is that I’d bet dollars to donuts that every one of you will eventually say a prayer of forgiveness on your deathbed when mortality bites you in the ass and you feel the devil breathing down your neck.
Ive seen it so many times it’s not even funny. The old “what if there is a guy with a beard and I have been wrong all along” shit.
You’ve seen it a lot of times? Why kind of sick freak are you hanging around people while the die just to see if they pray or not?? That’s messed up man.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
God Created the Integers per Steven Hawking.
[/quote]
Hawking is wrong! Integers are nothing more than a convention. We need integers in order to exlain ordinary process becasue it is easier to describe events with whole numbers. By the way, and I’m sure I don’t need to remind you, there are very few quantities in the universe that are integer values–depending on whose units one decides to use. Again its just convention.
I have taken logic classes. Atheism is the lack of a belief in a god and does not necessarily assert a negative. Theism asserts a positive and thus the burden of proof is upon it.
Claim: a god exists
Evidence: inconclusive at best, definately logically unconvincing
Result: it is logical not to believe the claim that a god exists.
[/quote]
Logically unconvincing would make it logical to say “I dunno” to say he doesn’t exist is to take the negative.
If your logical argument at best makes it plausible to take the agnostic point of view.
Atheism per websters is not a lack of belief but, it is a "2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity "
That word disbelief means negative.
Personally I think you should define atheism with in the confines of weak atheism/strong atheism. This would atleast give you argument room since I am familiar with those terms. You are describing weak atheism when you say a lack a reason to believe. I am specifically describing strong atheism. Which If you have noticed there are several people who are strong atheist who have posted.
[quote]zarathus wrote:
grey wrote:
What about Moses? The ten commandments?
Abraham? The old testament.
All bullshit?
I guess all religious Jews are morons for believing in their God as well.
Judaism, Christianity as well as all the other religions on this planet are practised by illiterate morons…people stuck in the middle ages. Now that you have made that clear I can rest easy knowing that whatever I do from here on in will have absolutely no consequences on how I spend eternity.
Lo and behold we have here at T-Nation a bunch of philosophers who have found the answer to life and death.
Gee whiz. Here we as humans have debated the existence of God for centuries and the answer was here in this thread all along.
Do none of you believe in human spirit?
Do none of you believe that there are things that our tiny little minds cannot begin to fathom? A little bit of humility will go a long way sometimes.
You guys think your the cats meow and have all the answers don’t you.
God is not a dude in the sky with a beard. I’m not sure what/who god is but it’s got something to do with being in a state of harmony with your universe and everything around you. Being close to god doesn’t mean you have conversations with him or are drinking buddies.
I actually do believe that this useless life we live on this tiny little planet in this small galaxy cannot be all there is. At least that’s what I want to believe.
What really gets to me is that I’d bet dollars to donuts that every one of you will eventually say a prayer of forgiveness on your deathbed when mortality bites you in the ass and you feel the devil breathing down your neck.
Ive seen it so many times it’s not even funny. The old “what if there is a guy with a beard and I have been wrong all along” shit.
Just in case…
First off, i can’t believe you’ve been to that many “deathbed confessions”. Second, absent of whether your observations are right or wrong (by the way, they’re so bad they’re not even accurate enough to be wrong) we don’t troll the Xians post, so please, respond with appropriate courtesy.
[/quote]
Oh I get it. Anybody who disagrees with your personal scientific view on life is a troll.
When you say “we” who exactly are you refering to? We the mighty ones? We the atheists? We the worlds leaders? We the intellectuals?
As to what you might or might not believe does not interest me in the least.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
haney wrote:
ok but atheism does not rest on faith so that would make it subject to the rules of logic.
I am asking about atheism and logic not God.
Side note belief in God is not religion. Religion is a body of people that believe, and adhere to a set of principles/rules with a governing body who’s power and direction is claimed to have come from God.
not everyone who has faith is religious.
Either way, a belief in anything that requires faith is illogical. Dogmatic practices, weather praying to the east or crossing your self upon entering a curch requires faith in those practices. Of course, some behaviors become habit out of brainwashing and thus have nothing to do with faith, but I digress. My point was not to point out the flaw in beleif in God or religion, etc.; it was to point out the flaw of making logical arguments against faith, and likewise for faith.
[/quote]
Now this I agree with! I have a problem as a believer I always here I used logic and that is why I am an atheist. Which asserts that a believer is illogical. Truth is neither fall with in that context.
[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
grey wrote:
You guys think your the cats meow and have all the answers don’t you.
Most on this thread are agnostic. I think, by definition, it means they don’t have all the answers.
[/quote]
I would agree most describe an agnostic/ weak atheist view point. I have only seen a few who post strong atheist.
I post because I find it much more entertaining, and rewarding to discuss this stuff with an opposing belief. I also get sucked in when someone starts claiming stuff a stand point of historical authority that may not be true.
A side from that don’t you know the party is in hell! I can’t get in so I am just going to hang around the waiting line with all the cool people.
I have never had a logic class. Why would I need a logic class to know that “someone” didn’t wave a magic wand and create this beautiful place we have here called Earth. And not to mention “He/She/It” did the deed in 7 days.
Please explain how believing in a higher being is logical.
I suppose you believe in the magic shows you see on TV?
Watch while I pull a universe out of my ass and you shall all hail me the mighty “god”.
[quote]grey wrote:
What about Moses? The ten commandments?
Abraham? The old testament.
All bullshit?
I guess all religious Jews are morons for believing in their God as well.
Judaism, Christianity as well as all the other religions on this planet are practised by illiterate morons…people stuck in the middle ages. Now that you have made that clear I can rest easy knowing that whatever I do from here on in will have absolutely no consequences on how I spend eternity.
Lo and behold we have here at T-Nation a bunch of philosophers who have found the answer to life and death.
Gee whiz. Here we as humans have debated the existence of God for centuries and the answer was here in this thread all along.
Do none of you believe in human spirit?
Do none of you believe that there are things that our tiny little minds cannot begin to fathom? A little bit of humility will go a long way sometimes.
You guys think your the cats meow and have all the answers don’t you.
God is not a dude in the sky with a beard. I’m not sure what/who god is but it’s got something to do with being in a state of harmony with your universe and everything around you. Being close to god doesn’t mean you have conversations with him or are drinking buddies.
I actually do believe that this useless life we live on this tiny little planet in this small galaxy cannot be all there is. At least that’s what I want to believe.
What really gets to me is that I’d bet dollars to donuts that every one of you will eventually say a prayer of forgiveness on your deathbed when mortality bites you in the ass and you feel the devil breathing down your neck.
Ive seen it so many times it’s not even funny. The old “what if there is a guy with a beard and I have been wrong all along” shit.
Just in case…
[/quote]
Good post bro.
I’m sick of these pseudo intellectual poeple and their mental masturbation.
I believe in God because I had a few interesting religious experiences and thats enough for me.
I believe one can talk to God all the time and that in fact you can communicate with God if you are sincere enough.
Now to those athiests why don’t you provide a proof that God dosen’t exist? If you cant provide any then STFU
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
God Created the Integers per Steven Hawking.
Hawking is wrong! Integers are nothing more than a convention. We need integers in order to exlain ordinary process becasue it is easier to describe events with whole numbers. By the way, and I’m sure I don’t need to remind you, there are very few quantities in the universe that are integer values–depending on whose units one decides to use. Again its just convention.[/quote]
Hawking is incapable of being wrong.
By the divinely given integer I have one penis.
If we used the Lifticusmaximus measure as the convention I would have more than one penii (my dick is bigger than yours)
[quote]beaul wrote:
I have never had a logic class. Why would I need a logic class to know that “someone” didn’t wave a magic wand and create this beautiful place we have here called Earth. And not to mention “He/She/It” did the deed in 7 days.
Please explain how believing in a higher being is logical.
I suppose you believe in the magic shows you see on TV?
Watch while I pull a universe out of my ass and you shall all hail me the mighty “god”.[/quote]
You are the very type of atheist that I was hoping to run across when I posted that.
I submit exhibit “beaul” as proof that when an atheist says I use “Logic” they are really just blowing hot air!
[quote]haney wrote:
Logically unconvincing would make it logical to say “I dunno” to say he doesn’t exist is to take the negative.[/quote]
In that case I must now say “I dunno” to any random claim that has no logically convincing evidence. See the Flying Spaghetti Monster…although my personal favorite was always the invisible purple polka-dotted manatees that live below the surface of the moon and control all things throughout the universe.
[quote]If your logical argument at best makes it plausible to take the agnostic point of view.
Atheism per websters is not a lack of belief but, it is a "2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity "
Yeah…welcome to me disputing that definition It is not the tradtitional definition used by atheist philosophers and writers. Of course, the definition of agnostic has been butchered over the years too. You can wave the dictionary in my face all you want, and scream common usage…that doesn’t make it “right” in my opinion.
Here is a good reason why I think that definition of atheism is a bad one. We now have four subgroups to deal with here, theists, agnostics, weak atheists, and strong atheists. We can do something much simpler and more descriptive. A theist believes in a god. An atheist does not believe in a god. An agnostic does not believe that the existance of a god can be proven or disproven. Agnosticism was not originally some middle ground between theism and atheism at it is currently used as.
Now, who in this thread has said that they believe that no god exists. Did I just miss it or something? Where are these “strong” atheists? I see a bunch of atheists calling themselves agnostics (though they might actually be agnostics as well) and a bunch of atheists trying to educate people on a proper definition of the word atheism.
I actually do believe that this useless life we live on this tiny little planet in this small galaxy cannot be all there is. At least that’s what I want to believe.
You seem to get extremely angry and sarcastic when confronting a group of people who do not share your beliefs. I saw this on one of the many ‘gay’ threads as well.
It would be great if you actually tried to ‘love thy neighbour’ instead of going on contempt-filled rants that make you look like a total hypocrite.[/quote]
Where did you get the idea that I’m a Christian? I said that I would LIKE to believe that there is more to it than feeding the worms at the end of the road…that’s it. No “bow down and behold thy lord” shit from me.
What I did in fact mention was the interesting fact that so many people who lead a very agnostic lifestyle for one reason or another start to believe in god when they see that their days are numbered.
I find it to be an amusing element of human nature.
I also think that ridiculing a persons religious belief is juvenile and moronic.
It’s what most of you call intolerance when refering to gays but religion seems to be fair game…
Oh and I do not love my neighbour. I don’t think he loves me.
I don’t pray and i do not go to church.
I do however like the thought that there are people in this world who believe in God and a soul.
The one thing that I cannot understand for the life of me is mans penchant for doing evil. Where does it come from?
Are there evil animals? If not why?
Is the difference in the soul?
[quote]haney wrote:
I post because I find it much more entertaining, and rewarding to discuss this stuff with an opposing belief. I also get sucked in when someone starts claiming stuff a stand point of historical authority that may not be true.
A side from that don’t you know the party is in hell! I can’t get in so I am just going to hang around the waiting line with all the cool people. [/quote]
You can’t get in? Hey, it’s easy! Just say “Jesus Tap-Dancing Christ in a Goddamn Motherfucking Taxicab” and then say “Today is not Tuesday”. There, you’re a liar and a blasphemer! See you at the party man!! (hehe)
[quote]
Now to those athiests why don’t you provide a proof that God dosen’t exist? If you cant provide any then STFU [/quote]
Fine, here you go: I prayed and prayed to God, until finally he answered. I asked him, “God, do you exist?” He replied, “Nope.” Good enough for me.
Even if all you “theists” are right and that logically you cannot deny that there might be a god, that is still very very far away from “10 commandments/messiah/trinity” Jehova.
The problem cannot be reduced to there is no god OR everything the bible claims is true.
Imagine there is an entity we would, for a lack of a better term, call a god and he just was some sort of prime mover and otherwise does not give a shit.
No heaven, no hell, no weird interest in homosexuality…
Then we heathen atheists would technically be wrong but for all practical purposes be right…
I actually do believe that this useless life we live on this tiny little planet in this small galaxy cannot be all there is. At least that’s what I want to believe.
You seem to get extremely angry and sarcastic when confronting a group of people who do not share your beliefs. I saw this on one of the many ‘gay’ threads as well.
It would be great if you actually tried to ‘love thy neighbour’ instead of going on contempt-filled rants that make you look like a total hypocrite.
Where did you get the idea that I’m a Christian? I said that I would LIKE to believe that there is more to it than feeding the worms at the end of the road…that’s it. No “bow down and behold thy lord” shit from me.
What I did in fact mention was the interesting fact that so many people who lead a very agnostic lifestyle for one reason or another start to believe in god when they see that their days are numbered.
I find it to be an amusing element of human nature.
I also think that ridiculing a persons religious belief is juvenile and moronic.
It’s what most of you call intolerance when refering to gays but religion seems to be fair game…
Oh and I do not love my neighbour. I don’t think he loves me.
I don’t pray and i do not go to church.
I do however like the thought that there are people in this world who believe in God and a soul.
The one thing that I cannot understand for the life of me is mans penchant for doing evil. Where does it come from?
Are there evil animals? If not why?
Is the difference in the soul?
[/quote]
Bro, from a theology point of view, Man and Angels are the two creations that possess free will and are capable of committing sins. Some theologists call them free agents.
Unfortunately they all rebeled against God (Satan used to be an angel).
Christians should therefore put all their heart in correcting the evils of the modern society such as rape, stealing, worshipping other Gods, homosexuality and in general being a liberal (that was a joke by the way you humorless creatures).
[quote]Gunitgansta wrote:
grey wrote:
What about Moses? The ten commandments?
Abraham? The old testament.
All bullshit?
I guess all religious Jews are morons for believing in their God as well.
Judaism, Christianity as well as all the other religions on this planet are practised by illiterate morons…people stuck in the middle ages. Now that you have made that clear I can rest easy knowing that whatever I do from here on in will have absolutely no consequences on how I spend eternity.
Lo and behold we have here at T-Nation a bunch of philosophers who have found the answer to life and death.
Gee whiz. Here we as humans have debated the existence of God for centuries and the answer was here in this thread all along.
Do none of you believe in human spirit?
Do none of you believe that there are things that our tiny little minds cannot begin to fathom? A little bit of humility will go a long way sometimes.
You guys think your the cats meow and have all the answers don’t you.
God is not a dude in the sky with a beard. I’m not sure what/who god is but it’s got something to do with being in a state of harmony with your universe and everything around you. Being close to god doesn’t mean you have conversations with him or are drinking buddies.
I actually do believe that this useless life we live on this tiny little planet in this small galaxy cannot be all there is. At least that’s what I want to believe.
What really gets to me is that I’d bet dollars to donuts that every one of you will eventually say a prayer of forgiveness on your deathbed when mortality bites you in the ass and you feel the devil breathing down your neck.
Ive seen it so many times it’s not even funny. The old “what if there is a guy with a beard and I have been wrong all along” shit.
Just in case…
Good post bro.
I’m sick of these pseudo intellectual poeple and their mental masturbation.
I believe in God because I had a few interesting religious experiences and thats enough for me.
I believe one can talk to God all the time and that in fact you can communicate with God if you are sincere enough.
Now to those athiests why don’t you provide a proof that God dosen’t exist? If you cant provide any then STFU
[/quote]
You are fucking dense. PASS THE THREAD UP!
At least haney is presenting a viewpoint, and causing discussion.
Which is alot better than your “STFU u stupid atheists!”
Honestly dude, no gives a rats ass about your personal experiences with God. Go tell the other Christians on here, maybe they give a fuck.
[quote]grey wrote:
who believe in God and a soul.
The one thing that I cannot understand for the life of me is mans penchant for doing evil. Where does it come from?
Are there evil animals? If not why?
Is the difference in the soul?
[/quote]
Great question.
Are there evil animals…when a dog bites, people just say there is something wrong with him.
As we’ve seen over and over again, evil takes on a different meaning depending where you go.
To some, Bush is evil, to some Clinton, to some Guevara.
Whats the seperation between animals and humans? Same as I said before- there is no Nietzsche in the wolfpack going “fuck the pack, I’m running shit now”.
