[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Zeb, don’t hijack this thread. If you want, go to the Christian thread and say what scumbags we all are, and how you’ll laugh when we’re all in hell.[/quote]
Have you seen that other thread? No wonder they’re coming over here; all the interesting poeple are here.
Reading that other thread gives you a good idea about what Eternity feels like…
[quote]pookie wrote:
haney wrote:
Excluding the super natural please explain to me what parts of the NT that you can prove of historically not correct.
King Herod had all boys under two years of age in Bethlehem and it’s surroundings killed (“Surrounding areas” is your added words).
Those kinds of massacres tend to be noted by historians. The problem here is that no historian, not even Josephus, who otherwise documented Herod’s life quite extensively, ever mentioned it taking place.
So, historically, there never was a massacre of infants at Bethlehem; only the NT mentions it.
[/quote]
That is an argument from Silence which is not an argument at all.
Let me ask though how many children under the age of 2 could there have been in Bethlehem at the time. Since you argue from silence I will do the same here and say probably not many to even show up on the radar screen of josephus.
Also I would say that it is extremely doubtful that Josephus was able to record every evilthat atrocity Herod did; if he was able to I am sure that work would be significantly larger!
[quote]haney wrote:
Excluding the super natural please explain to me what parts of the NT that you can prove of historically not correct.
[/quote]
Supernatural aside, is not enough that the apostles have all a very different story?
That VERY probably -and that is not even denied by the catholic church- not a single author of the evangelia knew Jesus.
It’s a nearly two-thousand year old book dammit!
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
haney wrote:
Excluding the super natural please explain to me what parts of the NT that you can prove of historically not correct.
Supernatural aside, is not enough that the apostles have all a very different story?
That VERY probably -and that is not even denied by the catholic church- not a single author of the evangelia knew Jesus.
It’s a nearly two-thousand year old book dammit!
[/quote]
Different versions different views of the events.
Well only two of the Authors in question would have known Jesus.
Matt, and John
Mark most likely wrote what Peter preached since he was a close friend, and Luke wrote for the Gentile reader.
There is no reason to assume that none of them knew him. aside from that. It seems very clear from the book of Acts which is attributed to Luke, seemed to have an extensive relationship with some, if not all of the originaly Apostles/Disciples.
I tell you what you give me references, and we can go from there. up until now you are just asserting your opinion.
[quote]pookie wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Zeb, don’t hijack this thread. If you want, go to the Christian thread and say what scumbags we all are, and how you’ll laugh when we’re all in hell.
Have you seen that other thread? No wonder they’re coming over here; all the interesting poeple are here.
Reading that other thread gives you a good idea about what Eternity feels like…
[/quote]
LOL>…Amen! Oops…sorry 
[quote]Vyapada wrote:
zarathus wrote:
by the way, not to offthread, but lots of animals communicate, including apes, ants, birds, dolphins, etc…but only humans have been demonstrated to have language.
Not that anyone said it, but the Newport Ape so-called “sign language” studies are really bad. It looks like, though, that all different kinds of animals do different, really interesting kinds of cognition, which look like really simular to different parts of human cognition.
sorry, I’m a linguistics/neuroscience dork.
Good to hear from a linguistics/neuroscience dork!
What’s your thoughts on the ability of other animals to learn (i.e. be taught) language?
[/quote]
The studies that claim that monkeys can learn ASL don’t actually show that…there’ kind of a clever Hans effect going on. The researchers wrote down anything that looked like an ASL sign, but they weren’t actually learning ASL. Most of the phrases have no ordering or syntax, and the phrases are pretty short.
Still, monkeys and dolphins show the ability to communicate through symbols (not the same thing as language, but part of it), and honeybees have a dance which indicates some very rich information about food sources.
The acceptance that there is no god is one of the best things that ever happened to me. I no longer was made to feel guilty over every little thing I did that could be construed as a ‘sin’. I no longer had to follow nonsensical dogma that contradicts itself time and again. I didn’t have to delve into xtian appologetics to try and reconcile xtian claims with the real world. In short I was free to base my life and decisions upon logic and reasoning intead of unsupported supernatural claims.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
I’m not going to hijack and “speak up for a supreme being” here, but I will mention that the human brain may have a fundamental physical characteristic that no other animals have on earth which is the ability to cause collapse of the wave function in a quantum system by the act of observation. We know that humans can do this. It has never been tested whether other animals can, I mean Schodender could collapse the wave function by opening the box, but his cat could not-at least he never considered that it could, and certainly a Poinsettia plant could not.
Also, near death experiences could be explained as a simply a large outpouring of endorphines to numb the pain which happens in that case to be associated with death.[/quote]
I’m sorry, but the quantum theory of cognition has not ever been demonstrated as you describe, though people have proposed it, but I’m not a believer.
[quote]Gunitgansta wrote:
I can’t believe those intellectually challenged who deny God exists. If you havent seen a nuclear bomb, does it mean it doesnt exist?
Do you have any proof that shows God doesnt exist? On teh contrary there are many evidences that show God exists, namely, the intracacies of the universe and all the little signs of designs around us.
On evolution: some really famous guy commented: I used to think God was great as he made everything, now God has been shown to be even greater when he can make things make themselves.
People should really use their god given brains more[/quote]
MWAH MWAH MWAH ha ha ha.
I keep seeing that Atheists base their life on Logic.
I am curious though how many have taken a logic class?
You know that Atheism takes the negative by saying God does not exist, and in logic taking the negative is defying logic?
[quote]pookie wrote:
Hamster wrote:
But what if you found 100,000 people claiming such a story? Could you discredit all of them as being liars, or not really being able to validate what they saw in the afterlife? I think there’s power in the sheer numbers.
The people are not necessarily lying. It’s often a matter of interpretation. Your beliefs influence how you’ll interpret a situation where information is incomplete.
Where as someone who believes in ghost or spirits might attribute a weird noise in the attic to “visitors” from some other world; a skeptic might consider the possibilities of materials creaking from changes in temperature and/or humidity. Or it could be rodents, whatever.
Even though they can’t both be right in their assessment, they can both be completely honest.
So while I’d tend to believe that people seeing “lights” and “tunnels” might simply be experiencing normal physiological processes, I can understand how someone expecting heaven and an afterlife might interpret those signs as being exactly that.
Even if you found 100,000 of them, it still wouldn’t be any proof of heaven or an afterlife.
[/quote]
It’s a valid point you make. I would suggest however, that you read a few of them (if nothing else, they’re very interesting.) The details go waaay beyond “lights” and “tunnels.” Many of these stories go so far as descriptions of heaven via a guided tour with Jesus! Many have traveled back home after dying and seen and heard what was happening at home. When they “returned,” what they saw was then verified by their spouse or children as what was happening during that time. There are many other examples, but my point is only that the level of clarity and detail in these stories is something else to consider.
Another point of similarity is that they all seem to be able to see in more than just three dimensions (not two dimensionally as you would expect if they were halucinating and seeing lights). In other words, they are able to look at an object from all sides and all aspects at once.
You may wonder why I take so much stock in these stories. And a big reason why is this: I met a relatively popular author of a Near Death Experience book named Betty Eadie (www.embracedbythelight.com), and she was one of the nicest people I’ve ever met. Her convinction and how significantly her life has changed as a result of her experience affected me deeply. There was an incredible excitement in her eyes when she talked about it. Again, it’s secondhand, but I couldn’t imagine her lying. And I certainly couldn’t imagine that the level of detail and length of her death (over 2 hours) could have caused her to mistake her experience for a normal physiological occurence.
Could it have been halucinations or something similar? I guess so, but when you consider the numbers of people “halucinating” the same, detailed experience and being able to verify some of the things they saw, it gets a little bit believable.
As to your point about belief systems influencing these “halucinations,” your reasoning makes sense. However, I’ve read quite a few athiest and 2 Eastern religion followers’ stories whereby the affected people had experiences very similar to those of believers, then came back and became avid believers in the afterlife. I haven’t read any stories of pagans dying and coming back, but I don’t doubt that they would have the same experience. Just another thing to consider.
Just my two bits… Thanks for the response.
[quote]haney wrote:
You know that Atheism takes the negative by saying God does not exist, and in logic taking the negative is defying logic?
[/quote]
ummmmm…religion cannot be analogized with logic, or mathematics at all for that matter. Religion and logic are polar opposites. Anyhting that bases its basic tenents on faith (a belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence) cannot be logical. The definition of faith states it that clearly.
What about Moses? The ten commandments?
Abraham? The old testament.
All bullshit?
I guess all religious Jews are morons for believing in their God as well.
Judaism, Christianity as well as all the other religions on this planet are practised by illiterate morons…people stuck in the middle ages. Now that you have made that clear I can rest easy knowing that whatever I do from here on in will have absolutely no consequences on how I spend eternity.
Lo and behold we have here at T-Nation a bunch of philosophers who have found the answer to life and death.
Gee whiz. Here we as humans have debated the existence of God for centuries and the answer was here in this thread all along.
Do none of you believe in human spirit?
Do none of you believe that there are things that our tiny little minds cannot begin to fathom? A little bit of humility will go a long way sometimes.
You guys think your the cats meow and have all the answers don’t you.
God is not a dude in the sky with a beard. I’m not sure what/who god is but it’s got something to do with being in a state of harmony with your universe and everything around you. Being close to god doesn’t mean you have conversations with him or are drinking buddies.
I actually do believe that this useless life we live on this tiny little planet in this small galaxy cannot be all there is. At least that’s what I want to believe.
What really gets to me is that I’d bet dollars to donuts that every one of you will eventually say a prayer of forgiveness on your deathbed when mortality bites you in the ass and you feel the devil breathing down your neck.
Ive seen it so many times it’s not even funny. The old “what if there is a guy with a beard and I have been wrong all along” shit.
Just in case…
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
haney wrote:
You know that Atheism takes the negative by saying God does not exist, and in logic taking the negative is defying logic?
ummmmm…religion cannot be analogized with logic, or mathematics at all for that matter. Religion and logic are polar opposites. Anyhting that bases its basic tenents on faith (a belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence) cannot be logical. The definition of faith states it that clearly. [/quote]
ok but atheism does not rest on faith so that would make it subject to the rules of logic.
I am asking about atheism and logic not God.
Side note belief in God is not religion. Religion is a body of people that believe, and adhere to a set of principles/rules with a governing body who’s power and direction is claimed to have come from God.
not everyone who has faith is religious.
[quote]grey wrote:
What about Moses? The ten commandments?
Abraham? The old testament.
All bullshit?
I guess all religious Jews are morons for believing in their God as well.
Judaism, Christianity as well as all the other religions on this planet are practised by illiterate morons…people stuck in the middle ages. Now that you have made that clear I can rest easy knowing that whatever I do from here on in will have absolutely no consequences on how I spend eternity.
Lo and behold we have here at T-Nation a bunch of philosophers who have found the answer to life and death.
Gee whiz. Here we as humans have debated the existence of God for centuries and the answer was here in this thread all along.
Do none of you believe in human spirit?
Do none of you believe that there are things that our tiny little minds cannot begin to fathom? A little bit of humility will go a long way sometimes.
You guys think your the cats meow and have all the answers don’t you.
God is not a dude in the sky with a beard. I’m not sure what/who god is but it’s got something to do with being in a state of harmony with your universe and everything around you. Being close to god doesn’t mean you have conversations with him or are drinking buddies.
I actually do believe that this useless life we live on this tiny little planet in this small galaxy cannot be all there is. At least that’s what I want to believe.
What really gets to me is that I’d bet dollars to donuts that every one of you will eventually say a prayer of forgiveness on your deathbed when mortality bites you in the ass and you feel the devil breathing down your neck.
Ive seen it so many times it’s not even funny. The old “what if there is a guy with a beard and I have been wrong all along” shit.
Just in case…
[/quote]
First off, i can’t believe you’ve been to that many “deathbed confessions”. Second, absent of whether your observations are right or wrong (by the way, they’re so bad they’re not even accurate enough to be wrong) we don’t troll the Xians post, so please, respond with appropriate courtesy.
[quote]grey wrote:
Do none of you believe that there are things that our tiny little minds cannot begin to fathom?
[/quote]
Yes, the average person cannot “fathom” many concepts and that is why dogma is important to them. It is easier to blindly accept things in faith than it is to question difficult contentions. That is why we leave academia to scholars and not priests.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
haney wrote:
You know that Atheism takes the negative by saying God does not exist, and in logic taking the negative is defying logic?
ummmmm…religion cannot be analogized with logic, or mathematics at all for that matter. Religion and logic are polar opposites. Anyhting that bases its basic tenents on faith (a belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence) cannot be logical. The definition of faith states it that clearly. [/quote]
God Created the Integers per Steven Hawking.
[quote]haney wrote:
I keep seeing that Atheists base their life on Logic.
I am curious though how many have taken a logic class?
You know that Atheism takes the negative by saying God does not exist, and in logic taking the negative is defying logic?
[/quote]
Have you read any of this thread at all?
I have taken logic classes. Atheism is the lack of a belief in a god and does not necessarily assert a negative. Theism asserts a positive and thus the burden of proof is upon it.
Claim: a god exists
Evidence: inconclusive at best, definately logically unconvincing
Result: it is logical not to believe the claim that a god exists.
[quote]haney wrote:
ok but atheism does not rest on faith so that would make it subject to the rules of logic.
I am asking about atheism and logic not God.
Side note belief in God is not religion. Religion is a body of people that believe, and adhere to a set of principles/rules with a governing body who’s power and direction is claimed to have come from God.
not everyone who has faith is religious.
[/quote]
Either way, a belief in anything that requires faith is illogical. Dogmatic practices, weather praying to the east or crossing your self upon entering a curch requires faith in those practices. Of course, some behaviors become habit out of brainwashing and thus have nothing to do with faith, but I digress. My point was not to point out the flaw in beleif in God or religion, etc.; it was to point out the flaw of making logical arguments against faith, and likewise for faith.
[quote]grey wrote:
You guys think your the cats meow and have all the answers don’t you.
[/quote]
Most on this thread are agnostic. I think, by definition, it means they don’t have all the answers.
[quote] What really gets to me is that I’d bet dollars to donuts that every one of you will eventually say a prayer of forgiveness on your deathbed when mortality bites you in the ass and you feel the devil breathing down your neck.
Ive seen it so many times it’s not even funny. The old “what if there is a guy with a beard and I have been wrong all along” shit.
[/quote]
You’ve seen it a lot of times? Why kind of sick freak are you hanging around people while the die just to see if they pray or not?? That’s messed up man.
Now, I am curious as to why all these Christians seem to be posting on here. I didn’t see any atheists harassing anyone on the Christian thread. Actually, I haven’t seen any of you guys post on that thread, maybe you’re actually atheists/agnostic! Welcome to the fold ZEB, haney, and grey!