Systematic Protocol Testing Log

Pharma TRT
75

Awesome, thank you for the scientific knowledge as always.

What do you make of guys who say they felt great on an AI for a month or more and then terrible before realizing they’d crashed their E2?
My take is that their E2 was probably crashed for a while but they didn’t feel the effects of it until weeks later, but they make it sound like their E2 was in its sweet spot for that whole month and then crashed after that.

I guess another reason could be that it takes much longer to reach steady state levels if you’re only taking it once or 2x/week

76

You also need to take into account that your body needs to reconfigure how much of the t converts to e2. ??

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77

Do you mind expanding on that and the implications? I’m not completely sure what you mean.

78

I think it’s due to the rate they metabolize estradiol. The AI just stops the creation of new e2, but doesn’t remove any that’s already in serum or in tissues. Possible to take the AI for a while, esp in a low dose, and go past their “sweet spot” after weeks or maybe a month. IDK I’m just thinking out loud

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79

That’s a good theory. I’m definitely going to take it slow, maybe give it 4 weeks just to make sure and go from there.
I’m starting a new job in 2 weeks I’m really excited about, wouldn’t be the best timing to completely crash my E2 and go into a suicidal depression on my first day there lol

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80

Meaning I would still wait the 4-6 weeks

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81

Yeah I think that’s right, I’m gonna wait 4 weeks just in case.

82

Ive been at 220mg/wk with daily shots for about a year now. I consider myself a TRT success, and there’s no way I would dick around with AI’s and protocol changes like this. Thanks for your sacrifice. I wish you more success

83

Thanks, I tried 30mg/day, 24mg/day, 18mg/day, 80mg E3.5D…gave each of those protocols more than 2 months. I’ve been on TRT for about 12 months at this point.

On the higher dosages TT, FT and E2 would go way out of range. That’s not necessarily a problem in and of itself, but what I found is that while my TT will be 1.5x the top of the normal range, my E2 will be 2.5x the range, and I think that’s a problem.

On top of that my SHBG is naturally very high (80 nmol/L) and we know it binds Test and DHT more strongly than E2, so I think my ratio of FT to Free E2 is not large enough.

When I started TRT I felt amazing for the first 2 weeks (after 3-4 days of nothing), after that I went into the darkest depression of my entire life (it wasn’t a “new baseline” after habituation, I can tell you that).

My theory is that while my T was going up, my E2 was trailing behind since there’s a lag from the time it takes to convert T to E2. As such, until the exogneous T reached steady state in my blood the ratio of T:E2 was much greater, hence why I felt so good.
Once T reached its (99%) peak after 2 weeks or so (see steroidplotter), E2 caught up pretty quickly and I started feeling like shit.

At this point it’s not like I’m deciding to be on an AI for the rest of my life. All I’m doing is testing a hypothesis, and taking some low dose Anastrozole for a few weeks seems like an easy and safe way to do it.
If I end up feeling much better (my libido and erections are already way better after starting the AI last Friday), then I’ll know I need a higher T:E2 ratio than I can get on injections alone (regardless of frequency and dosage) and that I therefore need to control E2.

At that point I can stay forever on a low dose AI. I can try the compounded scrotal cream and see if the increased DHT helps combat E2 (it’s a natural E2 antagonist), I can try low dose daily Cialis, I can add a little bit of Primo to my TRT, which might be safer long term than an AI. Etc…

So no big sacrifice here in my opinion. Given all the evidence I have for my E2 being too high, it would be completely insane as far as I’m concerned not to test that hypothesis.

EDIT: Also, when I was on higher dosages with E2 at 70pg/mL I’ve experienced bloating to the point of obvious edema in my ankles, BP rising to 160/80 (always been 115/75 my whole life), constant headaches and ending up in the ER with abnormal EKG’s where they put me on a double IV + oxygen because they thought I was about to have a heart attack. Being tired all day, apathetic, lethargic, etc…
All that was from high E2, so clearly letting E2 fly into the stratosphere isn’t for everyone.

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84

Agreed. You make a lot of sense. Thanks for the input!

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86

To high of testosterone can do the same.

Unless you keep your t levels the same as e2 going up you really can’t know.

87

By the way, how has the Zomacton been working for you? I’ve read on another forum 2 guys mention they got that brand of GH and their levels didn’t even move a little bit, even on 3iu/day.
Have you tested your IGF-1 levels since starting?

I’ve been at 0.9iu/day for a couple months but haven’t tested my IGF-1 levels yet. I thought I could feel a difference initially but it might’ve been placebo. Now not so much. I’m starting to wonder whether it’s just hCG? Apparently that’s a common replacement for HGH (scam obviously).

It seems unlikely because it’s through a compounding pharmacy, but who knows…I’m gonna test my levels in a few days and see what comes out.

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88

Not yet. Probably end of August. I haven’t really felt any different on 1iu, but I also didn’t feel anything on the Tesa/Ipa and that had my IGF-1 over 300.

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89

I’m sure mine isn’t, because HCG usually makes me feel off and this hasn’t done that

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90

Interesting thanks, I was definitely feeling better initially after a week or so, like significantly so. Then not so much but maybe I got used to it. I just got the test done this morning so I should have results soon.

The AI however is giving me mixed results. My sex drive and erection quality are up but I feel like my mood is a little down. I’m more easily irritated, not interested or motivated by things as much as before, and still tired despite 8 hours of sleep (that hasn’t changed). No clicking joints or anything like that though.

Can I ask you what your protocol is for Test and AI?

91

I have noticed that while playing with e2 levels, the times my libido was the highest my mood wasn’t always the best. And the times I feel really happy or content my libido was just so-so. Not sure the relationship, but I’m sure it has to do with changing neurotransmitter levels from the TT & e2.

Right now I’m taking 160mg T Cyp with no AI. Previously I was using the same amount of T but with .125mg Anastrozole after each shot. The last 6 weeks I’ve been on an aggressive cut with 240mg T & .25mg A with some Anavar thrown in but have been feeling off, so going back to the basics in preparing for lab work next month.

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92

That’s unfortunate…it’d be nice to have high libido correlate with other benefits but it seems I’m experiencing the same tradeoff.

I’m starting to have second thoughts about the AI. It seems some people do have permanent E2 shut down, although apparently it’s more often when using Aromasin.
Do you feel you’re always able to come back to your previous mood/E2 levels after using Anastrozole for a while?

Have you tried the compounded cream? I’m thinking maybe the high DHT levels from scrotal application would help since DHT is an E2 antagonist. Also I think my SHBG being so high skews my hormone balance towards E2 since it binds androgens more strongly.

93

Yes, I’ve experienced crashed e2 on several occasions and it’s always come back up. I don’t know by what mechanism e2 would be permanently lowered or hampered by AI use. You’d have to shut down enzyme production completely, and no AI does that. Maybe the ER dies without the presence of any e2 to stimulate it? You’d have to have literally no estrogens. And they should come back once estrogen is detected again. Anyway, just don’t know how that would happen.

94

Yeah I’m not sure either. Maybe crashed E2 for too long and the receptors never come back to what they were? I don’t know enough about biology unfortunately to even come up with a decent hypothesis, but I’m glad to hear you recovered each time. I think I feel better already after having stopped the AI 2 days ago.

I’m gonna try a few different things before touching an AI again. Try EOD injections to lower SHBG relative to ED injections, try the scrotal compounded cream, try to add a bit of Anavar to lower SHBG, try some Primo to lower E2 that way. I also want to see how I feel once I fine tune Preg and DHEA. Both are low on my labs, DHEA actually being below the minimum of the range, so i think i could significantly benefit from supplementing those two.

I got my IGF-1 results on 0.3 mg (0.9 iu) per day of the Zomacton and I was at 150 pg/mL, up from 120 pg/mL. It’s still a significant increase since I’ve been at 120 pg/mL consistently over 5 or 6 blood tests in the last year, but I was expecting more from what is almost 1 iu/day, which according to many is a full replacement dose. I wonder whether I’d get higher levels on Norditropin or one of the more expensive brands, but I can’t afford $2500/month for that, at least for now.

I got the green light from my doc to bump up to double the dose, which is almost 2 iu/day (1.8 iu), so I expect a significant increase from that. I’m aiming for close to the top of the range for my age, which according to Quest is around 300 pg/mL.

Let’s see…

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95

This is the same dose I’m taking, but haven’t measured IGF-1 yet. Actually just placed another order for 12 weeks worth today.

I think that “replacement dose” would be less than “optimal dose”, so technically you’re middle range right? I’d guess 2iu would get you above 200 but probably not over 300. Curious what your results will be on that. May increase it myself since I haven’t felt anything on 1iu.

Anyway, glad one of us is staying on top of labwork lol

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