But I will condemn the motion as xenophobic/Islamophobic (because I know the people who pushed for this issue). Just as I did condemn the hanging of that girl and the system that permitted it.
[/quote]
Wrong girl. I’m talking about the one you called a slut, who “played with fire and got burned.” And, countered criticisms of us non-Iranians with “when in Rome…”
[quote]
The “potential to hide a demographic explosion” angle is something I haven’t heard before. Or maybe something similar that involved yellow stars.[/quote]
Overused. These kind of replies get nothing more than a yawn from me.
Nations, and their people, have every right to control immigration in order to perserve their people and their culture to the exclusion of anyone else. Maybe that vast majority of modernized, intelligent, and energetic muslims we always hear about will stay home and crush the teeny-tiny minority of extremists. That way they won’t “get radicicalized” when the great and little satans feel the need to do something.
So my concern is that these kind of policies might actually help hide a greater problem. Out of sight, out of mind. Then when things come to a head, you realize political power has shifted and it’s too late.
But I will condemn the motion as xenophobic/Islamophobic (because I know the people who pushed for this issue). Just as I did condemn the hanging of that girl and the system that permitted it.
Wrong girl. I’m talking about the one you called a slut, who “played with fire and got burned.” And, countered criticisms of us non-Iranians with “when in Rome…”
The “potential to hide a demographic explosion” angle is something I haven’t heard before. Or maybe something similar that involved yellow stars.
Overused. These kind of replies get nothing more than a yawn from me.
Nations, and their people, have every right to control immigration in order to perserve their people and their culture to the exclusion of anyone else. Maybe that vast majority of modernized, intelligent, and energetic muslims we always hear about will stay home and crush the teeny-tiny minority of extremists. That way they won’t “get radicicalized” when the great and little satans feel the need to do something.
So my concern is that these kind of policies might actually help hide a greater problem. Out of sight, out of mind. Then when things come to a head, you realize political power has shifted and it’s too late.[/quote]
It’s interesting to watch lixy constantly hoisted by her own petard and trapped in her own lies.
More than likely, she’ll disappear from the forum for awhile (when the lies become too obvious) until she thinks the rest of the credulous leftists have forgotten all of the stuff she said and then re-appear to start everything over again.
I wonder where she’ll move when she and her co-religionists have ruined Sweden? I bet she doesn’t think about that too much. Her Arab frame prevents any sort of introspection and critical thinking. Much better to keep thinking about the Palestinians and Greater and Lesser Satans and project all her problems onto them.
It is absolutely laughable that the Swiss economy needs Muslim immigrants. The Swiss could fucking cherry pick who they let in.
It does not make any sense to let in hordes of uneducated immigrants. Sooner or later they will be unemployed because the jobs requiring little education are moving out of Europe. This is already happening in Germany.
Most muslims are in Switzerland because the Swiss offered them refuge during the war in ex-yugoslavia and then the Swiss did not kick them out after the war.
Why the referendum was accepted with such a high percentage:
It is of course not (only) about minarets. It was a way to finally to tell the government they have had enough. If you are an immigrant in a country, you either accept the laws and customs of this country or otherwise get the fuck out. And that is something the government should enforce.
Church bells vs. Minarets:
I know Swiss catholic people that would vote for a ban on church bells. Until the rise of Islam in Europe, religion in Europe had started to become irrelevant in everyday life.
So my concern is that these kind of policies might actually help hide a greater problem. Out of sight, out of mind. Then when things come to a head, you realize political power has shifted and it’s too late.
It’s interesting to watch lixy constantly hoisted by her own petard and trapped in her own lies.
[/quote]
Yeah, Lixy linked to the Saudi story when I specifically mentioned the Iranian regime. Those who’ve followed the forum for will awhile know Lixy has it out for the Sauds. Not that this is a problem, for me. But, when Lixy plays apologist for extremism in Iran…well, it starts to come off like there’s some kind of sectarian/tribal bias manifesting itself in selective criticism of extremist Islamic regimes.
So my concern is that these kind of policies might actually help hide a greater problem. Out of sight, out of mind. Then when things come to a head, you realize political power has shifted and it’s too late.
It’s interesting to watch lixy constantly hoisted by her own petard and trapped in her own lies.
Yeah, Lixy linked to the Saudi story when I specifically mentioned the Iranian regime. Those who’ve followed the forum for will awhile know Lixy has it out for the Sauds. Not that this is a problem, for me. But, when Lixy plays apologist for extremism in Iran…well, it starts to come off like there’s some kind of sectarian/tribal bias manifesting itself in selective criticism of extremist Islamic regimes.[/quote]
I think it’s possible that lixy is a Shi’ite. That would explain the love of Iran/hate of Saud, one being the Shia state and the other being a state known for persecuting Shia. I’m not sure what the Shi’a situation is in North Africa, but plenty of Shi’a get persecuted by the Sunnis and there has been plenty of Sunni terrorism in North Africa via Al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood.
Of course, the Shi’a have done plenty of persecuting of their own, so we mustn’t feel to much sympathy for poor little lixy even if she is a Shi’ite.
I see what you’re saying, but your New Jersey relatives did NOT expand their Catholicism to the extent that other people were threatened.
Switzerland would be just fine without Muslims using up taxpayers resources.
It’s not like illegals here, who “do the work the Americans won’t”. Most Muslims in Switzerland are new, and they don’t work, just like in their home country. (88.3% as of 2000) Muslims in Switzerland are not Swiss citizens, Islam in Switzerland - Wikipedia [/quote]
Actually no. For example, like I mentioned briefly in one previous post, most (if not all) of the construction work in German speaking countries - Germany, Austria and Switzerland from 70ies is done by Bosnian Muslims. So much that much of their words entered the construction jargon.
Now, the life of these “Baustelci” (corruption of the German word Baustelle - construction site) was (is) pretty bleak. Daily 14 - 16 hour work shifts and life in shitty communal appartments with other “guest workers” (gastarbeiter in German).
Ironically, many of these workers I’ve spoken with never had the chance to learn proper German, despite working from 10 to 20 years on construction sites throughout these countries. And that’s not because their muslim faith prevented them from integrating into society, but due to their working hours virtually all the people they met were other immigrants - working graveyard shifts in supermarkets and gas stations.
So in other words, the Swiss are perfectly happy when immigrants bake them pizzas and bread or serve them ice cream (niches occupied by Kosovo muslims) build their buildings or repair cars (Bosnians) but when it comes to giving them citizenship - then it’s a drain on taxpayers funds.
I haven’t been in contact with other muslim immigrants in Switzerland to make a qualified statement about them.
As far as immigration experience is concerned, I’ve also spent my late teenage years in Sweden, and at that time I actually hated it and it’s native inhabitants. Ok, maybe “hated” is too strong of a word, but definitely intensely disliked.
I see what you’re saying, but your New Jersey relatives did NOT expand their Catholicism to the extent that other people were threatened.
Switzerland would be just fine without Muslims using up taxpayers resources.
It’s not like illegals here, who “do the work the Americans won’t”. Most Muslims in Switzerland are new, and they don’t work, just like in their home country. (88.3% as of 2000) Muslims in Switzerland are not Swiss citizens, Islam in Switzerland - Wikipedia
Actually no. For example, like I mentioned briefly in one previous post, most (if not all) of the construction work in German speaking countries - Germany, Austria and Switzerland from 70ies is done by Bosnian Muslims. So much that much of their words entered the construction jargon.
[/quote]
Weird. The Bosnians do most of the human trafficking as well - you know, young girls.
Why don’t they return home? Could it be that, like lixy, their country is so ruined by people like them that they’d rather deal with atrocious work conditions in the German countries?
What nationality are you?
It’s funny, because when I was in Germany I saw plenty of evidence that what you’re saying was not/is not true. There were plenty of 2nd and 3rd generation Turks and Albanians that spoke the language fine and just chose not to get along.
They’re a drain on taxpayer’s funds either way. If they have citizenship, they’ll be a drain that can vote itself into more of a drain.
In Germany, at least, I saw tons of Germans doing all these jobs you claim immigrants do. The Muslims pretty much just sold vegetables and fruit for a living.
[quote]
As far as immigration experience is concerned, I’ve also spent my late teenage years in Sweden, and at that time I actually hated it and it’s native inhabitants. Ok, maybe “hated” is too strong of a word, but definitely intensely disliked.[/quote]
This is beyond galling. You move to their country and talk about how bad they suck. How did you know they wanted you there in the first place? Perhaps, just like in the United States, the government brought them there at the bidding of Big Business to drive down wages. Maybe the Swedes weren’t happy about it. Did that cross your mind?
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
I think it’s possible that lixy is a Shi’ite.
[/quote]
I do not think so. I think he likes the Iranian Regime purely because it’s anti-Western, anti-US and anti-American. He apologises for the crimes of the Communists for the same reasons.
But I will condemn the motion as xenophobic/Islamophobic (because I know the people who pushed for this issue). Just as I did condemn the hanging of that girl and the system that permitted it.
Wrong girl. I’m talking about the one you called a slut, who “played with fire and got burned.” And, countered criticisms of us non-Iranians with “when in Rome…”
The “potential to hide a demographic explosion” angle is something I haven’t heard before. Or maybe something similar that involved yellow stars.
Overused. These kind of replies get nothing more than a yawn from me.
Nations, and their people, have every right to control immigration in order to perserve their people and their culture to the exclusion of anyone else. Maybe that vast majority of modernized, intelligent, and energetic muslims we always hear about will stay home and crush the teeny-tiny minority of extremists. That way they won’t “get radicicalized” when the great and little satans feel the need to do something.
So my concern is that these kind of policies might actually help hide a greater problem. Out of sight, out of mind. Then when things come to a head, you realize political power has shifted and it’s too late.
It’s interesting to watch lixy constantly hoisted by her own petard and trapped in her own lies.
More than likely, she’ll disappear from the forum for awhile (when the lies become too obvious) until she thinks the rest of the credulous leftists have forgotten all of the stuff she said and then re-appear to start everything over again.
I wonder where she’ll move when she and her co-religionists have ruined Sweden? I bet she doesn’t think about that too much. Her Arab frame prevents any sort of introspection and critical thinking. Much better to keep thinking about the Palestinians and Greater and Lesser Satans and project all her problems onto them.
[/quote]
What you said, applies to the majority of Muslims and Leftists. They cannot see that their beliefs and ideologies. Are completely bankrupt and utter failures. The left does not see the horrors that await them. If the Muslims are victorious in the this struggle.
Weird. The Bosnians do most of the human trafficking as well - you know, young girls.
[/quote]
Weird. You should check data about human trafficking from Central / Eastern Europe before making such statements, you know.
If I was to make such sweeping generally unfounded statements I could say that most of the Westerners flying into Thailand and Cambodia are sex offenders.
Well, if you’re an employer it’s a pretty straightforward choice - use the immigrant because in that way you drive wage prices down, he can work longer hours and there aren’t any pesky unions around.
For the immigrant it’s better than nothing - being without work or future in their original shithole. I wonder if you’d use such arguments as “their native country is fucked up because they’re filthy and incompetent” for 19th century Irish immigrants into the States. You know, the same people who were later romanticized as the archetypal cops and blue collar workers, while their contemporaries considered them human filth.
I’m not a big fan of quoting Wikipedia, but nevertheless:
I was referring to 1st generation workers who were instrumental in the construction business, as an counterpoint from personal experience to sweeping statements about “muslim immigrants sitting on their assess doing nothing”.
If you claim that immigrants were “forced into European countries by Big Business”, let’s expand this argument and take a look at three examples: apartheid South Africa, Israel and freakin’ Dubai (before the current collapse)
Note: I’m NOT comparing SA to Israel, just saying that each of these societies had an overriding reason NOT to use labor from foreign / hostile populations:
apartheid South Africa - racially motivated doctrine of racial separation, constant warnings about “Black danger”
Israel - I won’t get into the complex Middle East problem, just state the obvious fact that Palestinians (and even Israeli Arabs) are a security threat to Israel
Dubai (UAE) - well, obviously “infidel” immigrant workers, whether from rich Western countries or poor ones from India or Philippines were perceived as a “corrupting influence” on native inhabitants.
Yet despite these reasons, each of these societies depend(ed) on day labor, even from openly hostile population such as Palestinians (in case of Israel) or black Africans (in case of SA)
Like I said, someone has to, proverbially speaking, sweep the streets and move the garbage. Westerners, gulf Arabs or white South Africans weren’t going to do that.
The problem is, that having grown up in their new countries, 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants DO NOT want to take the menial jobs of their parents. Coupled with cultural / religious issues mentioned before, this opens way to petty crime, unemployment and widely publicized immigrant issues. They cannot “go back” because there is nowhere to go back. They don’t belong to the countries of their parents, and obviously they don’t fit here as well.
Of course, NEW immigrants are then required to fill these menial jobs. If we take Germany for example, Turks and nationalities from former Yugoslavia who were the first immigrant wave were later supplanted by Africans and Arabs.
[quote]
This is beyond galling. You move to their country and talk about how bad they suck. How did you know they wanted you there in the first place? Perhaps, just like in the United States, the government brought them there at the bidding of Big Business to drive down wages. Maybe the Swedes weren’t happy about it. Did that cross your mind? [/quote]
I haven’t MOVED there, I was there on a scholarship. Every time I had to explain the customs / immigration officers that I had no intention of staying in their paradise country after my scholarship expired.
What pissed me off in Sweden were petty things - that adds up in the long run. Imagine after acing a test in high school your teacher telling you calmly: “What a waste. You went through all this trouble learning, but in few years time you’ll be pickpocketing and selling drugs like other Yugos”.
By the way, I’m ethnic German (Volksdeutsche) from Croatia.
It is absolutely laughable that the Swiss economy needs Muslim immigrants. The Swiss could fucking cherry pick who they let in.
It does not make any sense to let in hordes of uneducated immigrants. Sooner or later they will be unemployed because the jobs requiring little education are moving out of Europe. This is already happening in Germany.
Most muslims are in Switzerland because the Swiss offered them refuge during the war in ex-yugoslavia and then the Swiss did not kick them out after the war.
[/quote]
Your ignorance regarding Swiss immigration policies is astounding.
Not only do they not have immigrants doing their dirty work but “saisoniers”, meaning people that come to work there and leave afterwards when they are not needed, they also can deport them quite easily.
Then, the ones taking in so many refugees were not the Swiss but another small Alpine country, i.e. us.
These conversations are wierd to me, because one of the best people in my life is a Bosnian Muslim.
However, even he expresses his disdain for the, fundamentalists.
“The Swiss have failed to give a clear signal for diversity, freedom of religion and human rights,” said Omar Al-Rawi, integration representative of the Islamic Denomination in Austria, which said its reaction was “grief and deep disappointment.”
Boo-hoo. I think perhaps, the West should set certain standards for Muslim immigration (if it needs it). Something like, you must reject certain practices of Islam, abridge certain parts of the Koran, and believe in some of written humanist liberalism, before your faith or any other.
This would keep the loonies out, and the logical Bosnians in.
Just a thought.
I don’t get what is racist about trying to maintain your nation’s culture. If the muslims want to do muslim things and islamify everything around them…why not just stay in dirkadirkastan? O wait, becuz dirkadirkastan sucks, hmmm…maybe then, Islamic culture and society suck? And should not be emulated or recreated in the West… Just a thought.
Not really. I think alot of Balkan, Central Asian and Eastern Euro people have their hands in that. The Albanians are pretty much the pros at it tho, from what I understand.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Wrong girl. I’m talking about the one you called a slut, who “played with fire and got burned.” And, countered criticisms of us non-Iranians with “when in Rome…” [/quote]
I linked to the thread you talked about. There was no thread about her case. This bit comes up very often, so I know what I’m talking about.
Yes.
What’s your point?
Do you or do you not agree that this amendment to the Swiss constitution is openly xenophobic and Islamophobic? If you do, then I’ll remind you that Switzerland manufactured vital components for the Luftwaffe, bombs and provided the Reichsbank with cash for their war effort.
Is branding Muslims such a far-fetched scenario in this context?
I am not arguing otherwise.
But what we have here isn’t about immigration. It’s about some Swiss citizens that are considered more equal than others.
Don’t hold your breath.
The will is there but it’ll take generations.
I understood your point. I even congratulated you for seeing it from that angle (provided it’s an original thought).
In doing so, you sealed the debate and provided a full-proof argument. That is, the ethnic Swiss are doomed no matter what happens, and hordes of Muslims are coming to destroy them/corrupt them/eat their flesh/etc. If the proposition had been rejected, you would see it as a a triumph of Islamic supremacy eradicating the defenseless local culture. But since it passed, you see a problem (you even say “a greater problem”) in that it will “hide” things.
Like I said, kudos! You managed to deadlock the debate.
It’s absolutely retarded, like declaring a war on “terror”. For fucks sake people, be honest about what it is you are doing. The war on terror is in fact a war on Islam and what it entails for a free society and this ban is aimed at the wrong aspect of Islamic influence.
[quote]3IdSpetsnaz wrote:
These conversations are wierd to me, because one of the best people in my life is a Bosnian Muslim.
However, even he expresses his disdain for the, fundamentalists.
[/quote]
Why the fuck did you write “even he” in your last sentence? You do realize that “Bosnian Muslims” (a term coined only in the 1990ies) were the most secular muslims in the world? Alcohol consumption was universal, and to a lesser extent even pork was eaten. Some of them didn’t even know they were Muslims and never saw the Koran or the inside of a mosque.
Western failure to stop the Bosnian war caused two things: First, religious cohesion - if someone tries to kill you because you’re a “Turk” you’ll eventually embrace this identity as a way of defiance.
The second and much more worrisome factor was the introduction of two very creepy factors in the centuries-old Balkan politics - Iranians and Saudis. With ample financial means, they immediately used the cultural and political vacuum caused by the collapse of pre-war social structures, funding madrasses, banks and schools.
Isn’t it ironic that despite all this talk about “rogue” states harbouring terrorists from successive administrations, the country that is singlehandedly responsible for the dramatic spread of extremist islam was an Americal ally?
Removal of Saudi-funded religious schools throughout the Arabic world would have had more effect on terrorism that all current military actions.
[quote]loppar wrote:
Removal of Saudi-funded religious schools throughout the Arabic world would have had more effect on terrorism that all current military actions. [/quote]
[quote]lixy wrote:
loppar wrote:
Removal of Saudi-funded religious schools throughout the Arabic world would have had more effect on terrorism that all current military actions.
A zillion times “more effect”![/quote]
I’m not too sure. A few years back it “was the US’s support of Musharraf that fueled terrorism in Pakistan”. Musharraf is gone, Islamists are in charge, and what happened? The terrorists became stronger, there’s more killings than ever before.
If we take a stand against the Saudi Royals, people even worse will fill the void.
Other than that, how would one remove the Saudi-funded schools?
Look at what’s going on in Yemen. Would we also have to remove the Shia terrorists in Iran?
What would stop Iran from filling the void once the Saudis were taken down?
In doing so, you sealed the debate and provided a full-proof argument. That is, the ethnic Swiss are doomed no matter what happens, and hordes of Muslims are coming to destroy them/corrupt them/eat their flesh/etc. If the proposition had been rejected, you would see it as a a triumph of Islamic supremacy eradicating the defenseless local culture. But since it passed, you see a problem (you even say “a greater problem”) in that it will “hide” things.
[/quote]
[quote]loppar wrote:
3IdSpetsnaz wrote:
These conversations are wierd to me, because one of the best people in my life is a Bosnian Muslim.
However, even he expresses his disdain for the, fundamentalists.
Why the fuck did you write “even he” in your last sentence? You do realize that “Bosnian Muslims” (a term coined only in the 1990ies) were the most secular muslims in the world? Alcohol consumption was universal, and to a lesser extent even pork was eaten. Some of them didn’t even know they were Muslims and never saw the Koran or the inside of a mosque.
[/quote]