Sumo vs Regular Deads

Training Powerlifting
21

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
So, you pull modified sumo style then, similar to the way Ed Coan used to pull. Personally, I like my stance as wide as I can possibly get it while still keeping my knees in line with my ankles/feet. If you go any wider than that, you lose some of your strength.

I never really understood why anyone would pull modified sumo instead of full on sumo stance or just sticking with conventional. Modified worked for Ed Coan, but he had some kind of groin or hip injury later on in his career that left him unable to pull sumo.

I suspect the injury was the real reason he never was able to pull as much with conventional as he did with modified sumo. His best with modified was 901 lbs and his best conventional was somewhere in the upper 800’s, maybe 875. I bet if he were injury free, he could’ve repeated or even surpassed his 901 lb deadlift with conventional. [/quote]

You are assuming a lot. There might just be a reason why Coan went with modified sumo, don’t you think?

Anyway, we’ve had discussions on this several times before… I pull modified sumo because I am absolutely not built for conventional… Apart from limb vs. torso length etc, my thighs tend to get in the way on the conventional, and I suspect the way my joints are built also has something to do with me being unable to safely deadlift conventional… I can kick high to the side, but not to the front for example.

Modified sumo allows me to get the legs out of the way and to the side…
The closer grip (pretty much straight down from the shoulders for me) also is a lot easier on my wrists and I can hold much heavier weights double-overhand that way. Just a general sumo stance benefit, of course.

Doing wide stance sumos is an entirely different thing though… A lot less back and way more leg, but it beats up my hips too much and I’m weaker that way anyway. Knees get beat up to in my case.

So basically, modified sumo allows me to pull safely/with the least wear and tear or chance of injury out of all the deadlift variants done from the floor.
It’s pretty much the only variant that makes sense for me in general. Before I started doing this, I’d more or less given up on deadlifting.

22

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
So, you pull modified sumo style then, similar to the way Ed Coan used to pull. Personally, I like my stance as wide as I can possibly get it while still keeping my knees in line with my ankles/feet. If you go any wider than that, you lose some of your strength.

I never really understood why anyone would pull modified sumo instead of full on sumo stance or just sticking with conventional. Modified worked for Ed Coan, but he had some kind of groin or hip injury later on in his career that left him unable to pull sumo.

I suspect the injury was the real reason he never was able to pull as much with conventional as he did with modified sumo. His best with modified was 901 lbs and his best conventional was somewhere in the upper 800’s, maybe 875. I bet if he were injury free, he could’ve repeated or even surpassed his 901 lb deadlift with conventional. [/quote]

You are assuming a lot. There might just be a reason why Coan went with modified sumo, don’t you think?

Anyway, we’ve had discussions on this several times before… I pull modified sumo because I am absolutely not built for conventional… Apart from limb vs. torso length etc, my thighs tend to get in the way on the conventional, and I suspect the way my joints are built also has something to do with me being unable to safely deadlift conventional… I can kick high to the side, but not to the front for example.

Modified sumo allows me to get the legs out of the way and to the side…
The closer grip (pretty much straight down from the shoulders for me) also is a lot easier on my wrists and I can hold much heavier weights double-overhand that way. Just a general sumo stance benefit, of course.

Doing wide stance sumos is an entirely different thing though… A lot less back and way more leg, but it beats up my hips too much and I’m weaker that way anyway. Knees get beat up to in my case.

So basically, modified sumo allows me to pull safely/with the least wear and tear or chance of injury out of all the deadlift variants done from the floor.
It’s pretty much the only variant that makes sense for me in general. Before I started doing this, I’d more or less given up on deadlifting.

[/quote]

How do you mean “Double Wide Stance”

I was informed to put my toes to the outer rings where you would put your hands when benching if you know what i mean …

Toes are obviously pointed out to the side… if there another type of Sumo pull ?

23

[quote]NewPowerLifter wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
So, you pull modified sumo style then, similar to the way Ed Coan used to pull. Personally, I like my stance as wide as I can possibly get it while still keeping my knees in line with my ankles/feet. If you go any wider than that, you lose some of your strength.

I never really understood why anyone would pull modified sumo instead of full on sumo stance or just sticking with conventional. Modified worked for Ed Coan, but he had some kind of groin or hip injury later on in his career that left him unable to pull sumo.

I suspect the injury was the real reason he never was able to pull as much with conventional as he did with modified sumo. His best with modified was 901 lbs and his best conventional was somewhere in the upper 800’s, maybe 875. I bet if he were injury free, he could’ve repeated or even surpassed his 901 lb deadlift with conventional. [/quote]

You are assuming a lot. There might just be a reason why Coan went with modified sumo, don’t you think?

Anyway, we’ve had discussions on this several times before… I pull modified sumo because I am absolutely not built for conventional… Apart from limb vs. torso length etc, my thighs tend to get in the way on the conventional, and I suspect the way my joints are built also has something to do with me being unable to safely deadlift conventional… I can kick high to the side, but not to the front for example.

Modified sumo allows me to get the legs out of the way and to the side…
The closer grip (pretty much straight down from the shoulders for me) also is a lot easier on my wrists and I can hold much heavier weights double-overhand that way. Just a general sumo stance benefit, of course.

Doing wide stance sumos is an entirely different thing though… A lot less back and way more leg, but it beats up my hips too much and I’m weaker that way anyway. Knees get beat up to in my case.

So basically, modified sumo allows me to pull safely/with the least wear and tear or chance of injury out of all the deadlift variants done from the floor.
It’s pretty much the only variant that makes sense for me in general. Before I started doing this, I’d more or less given up on deadlifting.

[/quote]

How do you mean “Double Wide Stance”

[/quote] Where did I write that? [quote]

I was informed to put my toes to the outer rings where you would put your hands when benching if you know what i mean …

Toes are obviously pointed out to the side… if there another type of Sumo pull ?
[/quote]

There is the modified sumo pull, where you set up with your legs just outside your grip width.
Ed Coan - Deadlift 901 @ 220 - YouTube ← modified sumo. This is roughly how I pull.

Then you have regular sumo, where you use a wide to very wide stance instead and generally do things a little differently.

24

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote
Where did I write that?
[/quote]

Entschuldigung fur mischen

I was advised by another person Re wide setup, not yourself.

Thank you for the Video.

-Steve

25

[quote]NewPowerLifter wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote
Where did I write that?
[/quote]

Entschuldigung fur mischen
[/quote] “Excuse for to mix”.
Yes, excuse you hahahaha [quote]
I was advised by another person Re wide setup, not yourself.
[/quote] Then why did you ask me how I meant it? :slight_smile:

I thought it was a typo, to be honest.

Anyway, if you use a wide stance that’s fine too… IMO use whatever works best for you for your meet lifts, and use multiple stances in training if you want… I’m limited to modified sumo and rack pulls due to the way I’m built and some other factors so that’s all I do usually.

26

A lot of women pull sumo because we generally have more leg and hip strength, as opposed to back strength. I’ve always competed sumo, and pull sumo for the most part, but cross train with conventional. Like C_C, I’m not built for conventional, I’m definitely a squatter/bencher and not a monkey armed deadlifter.

However, when I was goofing around one time and decided to see what I could pull conventional, I pulled close to my raw sumo max for a triple, without a belt. After that, I realized my weakness isn’t my back, like I’d always assumed, but probably my posterior.

I’m working on pulling my stance in more, because I’d used a super wide stance that caused some knee cave. The super wide stance was due to the width I have to get to in equipment to get down to the bar - almost with toes on the plates.

Knee cave and super wide stance:

27

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

Anyway, if you use a wide stance that’s fine too… IMO use whatever works best for you for your meet lifts, and use multiple stances in training if you want… I’m limited to modified sumo and rack pulls due to the way I’m built and some other factors so that’s all I do usually.

[/quote]

HA been awhile since i did German language in school D- for effort :slight_smile:

Soon as i can get into the Gym early enough so they let me video the easier it will be to get feedback i suppose, they won’t allow video taking in the evening due to privacy issues.

Thanks for the feedback anyway.

-Steve

28

[quote]pushmepullme wrote:
A lot of women pull sumo because we generally have more leg and hip strength, as opposed to back strength. I’ve always competed sumo, and pull sumo for the most part, but cross train with conventional. Like C_C, I’m not built for conventional, I’m definitely a squatter/bencher and not a monkey armed deadlifter.

However, when I was goofing around one time and decided to see what I could pull conventional, I pulled close to my raw sumo max for a triple, without a belt. After that, I realized my weakness isn’t my back, like I’d always assumed, but probably my posterior.

I’m working on pulling my stance in more, because I’d used a super wide stance that caused some knee cave. The super wide stance was due to the width I have to get to in equipment to get down to the bar - almost with toes on the plates.
[/quote]

Nice lift.

I finally got a video of me, friend managed to get it while i lifted.

Probably wont be the best form but it was a new max of 182.5 kg !

Watched your video 10 or so times now you seem to push your hips through alot better any tips on how to engage them or is it practice makes perfect ?

-Steve

29

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

You are assuming a lot. There might just be a reason why Coan went with modified sumo, don’t you think?

[/quote]

Oh, I was definetely assuming a lot when talking about Ed Coan, haha. I wasn’t really speaking in a “matter-of-fact” way about his deadlifting post-injury though, I was just giving another possible reason as to why Coan might not have been able to pull as well with conventional as he could with sumo. Everyone just assumes it was because he was much better modified sumo than he was with conventional, I just think the injury that forced him to switch to conventional might have had something to do with it.

30

[quote]NewPowerLifter wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote
Where did I write that?
[/quote]

Entschuldigung fur mischen

I was advised by another person Re wide setup, not yourself.

Thank you for the Video.

-Steve[/quote]

Yea thats actually how I pulled. Thats a solid pull btw, the bar speed seem to remain the same from the start till the end. I think maybe he could added another 10 lbs or more to that lift

31

[quote]NewPowerLifter wrote:
Probably wont be the best form but it was a new max of 182.5 kg !
[/quote]

Good stuff on the PB, you hyperextend at the lock-out in my eyes - I’d concentrate on that for now (and grip strength so you don’t use straps ;-)).

32

[quote]plateau wrote:

[quote]NewPowerLifter wrote:
Probably wont be the best form but it was a new max of 182.5 kg !
[/quote]

Good stuff on the PB, you hyperextend at the lock-out in my eyes - I’d concentrate on that for now (and grip strength so you don’t use straps ;-)).[/quote]

Ye i didn’t know i lean so far back just trying to be sure I lock it out !!

As for straps, they are playing catch up every week I can hold more without the straps so little by little :slight_smile:

Thanks for the comment.

-Steve

33

[quote]NewPowerLifter wrote:

[quote]plateau wrote:

[quote]NewPowerLifter wrote:
Probably wont be the best form but it was a new max of 182.5 kg !
[/quote]

Good stuff on the PB, you hyperextend at the lock-out in my eyes - I’d concentrate on that for now (and grip strength so you don’t use straps ;-)).[/quote]

Ye i didn’t know i lean so far back just trying to be sure I lock it out !!

As for straps, they are playing catch up every week I can hold more without the straps so little by little :slight_smile:

Thanks for the comment.

-Steve[/quote]

Maybe add in more glute work to your routine, or activation work before you deadlift?

34

[quote]plateau wrote:

Maybe add in more glute work to your routine, or activation work before you deadlift?[/quote]

Not doing any assistance work yet.

Pretty much Deadlift go home, Squat go home, Bench go home… etc etc

It’s worked thus far when i quit getting PR’s perhaps then it’s time to work in some assistance or activation work (What is activation work ??)

-Steve

35

[quote]NewPowerLifter wrote:

[quote]plateau wrote:

Maybe add in more glute work to your routine, or activation work before you deadlift?[/quote]

Not doing any assistance work yet.

Pretty much Deadlift go home, Squat go home, Bench go home… etc etc

It’s worked thus far when i quit getting PR’s perhaps then it’s time to work in some assistance or activation work (What is activation work ??)

-Steve[/quote]

Personally, I’d do some core work and rotator cuff work at least after the main exercises to stay injury free. Congrats on the PR, but be careful of hyperextending like that. Just squeeze your glutes to push your hips through and get your core strong.

36

That hyper-extension is totally unnecessary, learn to lock out without that. Other than that, ditch the straps and use a mixed grip, on warmup sets work on pushing the hips through more, and pull in socks so your heels aren’t elevated, or buy some chucks, or other appropriate lifting shoes with a flat, close to the ground sole.

37

[quote]NewPowerLifter wrote:

Not doing any assistance work yet.

Pretty much Deadlift go home, Squat go home, Bench go home… etc etc

It’s worked thus far when i quit getting PR’s perhaps then it’s time to work in some assistance or activation work (What is activation work ??)

-Steve[/quote]

I’d at least be doing SOME assistance work if I were you. There’s a lot more to it than just getting PR’s. You want to do assistance work to build muscle mass, prevent imbalances, prevent injuries, build up your work capacity, etc. I mean, let’s just take bench for example, if you’re doing all that pressing and never doing any pulling then you’re going to have huge muscle imbalances that could cause a lot of problems later on. Even if you don’t get injured, soon enough the PR’s will stop, I guarantee it.

The assistance work doesn’t have to be anything crazy. Do some stuff like glute ham raises, pull throughs, sit ups, leg raises or anything like that on squat/deadlift days and do some stuff like dumbbell bench, pull ups, rows, side raises or anything like that on bench days. Just a suggestion.

38

Ok then cheers for all the advice, Stallion gave me a modified Sheiko plan… it HAS assistance work in it, so I’ll start that in the New Year.

I’ll take all the comments on board - I’ll take some Squat & Bench Video’s as soon as I know anyone in the gym again.

Many thanks for the Tips, Happy New Year to you all.

-Steve

39

[quote]NewPowerLifter wrote:
It’s worked thus far when i quit getting PR’s perhaps then it’s time to work in some assistance or activation work (What is activation work ??)
-Steve[/quote]

I was referring to glute activation work, stuff like:
clams, fire hydrants, hip thrusts, X-band walks.

There are a few articles on here if you run a quick search.

Good luck

40

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
So, you pull modified sumo style then, similar to the way Ed Coan used to pull. Personally, I like my stance as wide as I can possibly get it while still keeping my knees in line with my ankles/feet. If you go any wider than that, you lose some of your strength.

I never really understood why anyone would pull modified sumo instead of full on sumo stance or just sticking with conventional. Modified worked for Ed Coan, but he had some kind of groin or hip injury later on in his career that left him unable to pull sumo.

I suspect the injury was the real reason he never was able to pull as much with conventional as he did with modified sumo. His best with modified was 901 lbs and his best conventional was somewhere in the upper 800’s, maybe 875. I bet if he were injury free, he could’ve repeated or even surpassed his 901 lb deadlift with conventional. [/quote]

in his videos coan states that “i get the best out of my back and legs with the modified sumo style, as sumo uses too much hips and conventional tends to be difficult at the end of a meet because my back is tired from squatting, so i use a style in between to get the best of both worlds.” (paraphrasing)