Sudan Chicken Hawks

Been reading up on the new cause celebre among the Hollywood Left - that of the awful situation in Darfur.

If “Save Darfur” campaign requires some form of military presence, as has been encouraged by George Clooney, etc…

…will we hear the chorus that Clooney, Streisand, and company are just a bunch of ‘chicken hawks’?

After all, they are advocating action thousands of miles away, and they are suggesting that we send someone else’s children to do the grunt work while they stay nested at home in their posh mansions.

If the “Save Darfur” celebrities don’t actually strap on boots, camo, and M-16s, have they forfeited the moral right to advocate military action in Sudan?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Been reading up on the new cause celebre among the Hollywood Left - that of the awful situation in Darfur.

If “Save Darfur” campaign requires some form of military presence, as has been encouraged by George Clooney, etc…

…will we hear the chorus that Clooney, Streisand, and company are just a bunch of ‘chicken hawks’?

After all, they are advocating action thousands of miles away, and they are suggesting that we send someone else’s children to do the grunt work while they stay nested at home in their posh mansions.

If the “Save Darfur” celebrities don’t actually strap on boots, camo, and M-16s, have they forfeited the moral right to advocate military action in Sudan?[/quote]

Doubtful. If there’s anything the Bush administration has taught us, it’s that actually serving in the military (or completing your assigned duties) has no bearing on whether or not you should be allowed to offer strategic and tactical advice.

Both Cheney and Clooney had “different priorities” than joining the Armed Forces. Why one should be accorded more respect when it comes to military affairs than the other is beyond me.

[quote]harris447 wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
Been reading up on the new cause celebre among the Hollywood Left - that of the awful situation in Darfur.

If “Save Darfur” campaign requires some form of military presence, as has been encouraged by George Clooney, etc…

…will we hear the chorus that Clooney, Streisand, and company are just a bunch of ‘chicken hawks’?

After all, they are advocating action thousands of miles away, and they are suggesting that we send someone else’s children to do the grunt work while they stay nested at home in their posh mansions.

If the “Save Darfur” celebrities don’t actually strap on boots, camo, and M-16s, have they forfeited the moral right to advocate military action in Sudan?

Doubtful. If there’s anything the Bush administration has taught us, it’s that actually serving in the military (or completing your assigned duties) has no bearing on whether or not you should be allowed to offer strategic and tactical advice.

Both Cheney and Clooney had “different priorities” than joining the Armed Forces. Why one should be accorded more respect when it comes to military affairs than the other is beyond me.[/quote]

One of the few good points I’ve ever heard Harris make.

[quote]

harris447 wrote:

Both Cheney and Clooney had “different priorities” than joining the Armed Forces. Why one should be accorded more respect when it comes to military affairs than the other is beyond me.

GDollars37 wrote:

One of the few good points I’ve ever heard Harris make.[/quote]

I kind of think that was thunderbolt’s original point…

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Been reading up on the new cause celebre among the Hollywood Left - that of the awful situation in Darfur.

If “Save Darfur” campaign requires some form of military presence, as has been encouraged by George Clooney, etc…

…will we hear the chorus that Clooney, Streisand, and company are just a bunch of ‘chicken hawks’?

After all, they are advocating action thousands of miles away, and they are suggesting that we send someone else’s children to do the grunt work while they stay nested at home in their posh mansions.

If the “Save Darfur” celebrities don’t actually strap on boots, camo, and M-16s, have they forfeited the moral right to advocate military action in Sudan?[/quote]

Interesting.

But yea, I agree with Harris. These people are attracting alot of attention to something that is not only pretty horrible, but not covered at all in the media. Bitch as you will about them, they’re doing a good thing.

I saw Clooney on Real Time with Bill Maher, and he was advocating more of a UN approach then a unliateral American movement…although we may have burned that bridge already, I would like to see it happen.

War is old men talking and young men dying…I’d like it if the young men had a noble cause though…

[quote]harris447 wrote:
Doubtful. If there’s anything the Bush administration has taught us, it’s that actually serving in the military (or completing your assigned duties) has no bearing on whether or not you should be allowed to offer strategic and tactical advice.[/quote]

That’s funny I learned that lesson during the Clinton Administration. That and what the definition of ‘is’ is. :slight_smile:

The Sudan situation sucks.

The fact the Hollywood left is talking about using the military there is stupid.

How can they want the military in the Sudan ad not Iraq?

They are both tough situations with people being murdered by extremists.

The big difference is that there is no strategic reason to be involved in the Sudan.

Hypocrites.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

I kind of think that was thunderbolt’s original point…[/quote]

Exactly, Boston - even in these threads, we had a steady chant of ‘chickenhawk!’ against any person that supported the war in Iraq but was not himself signed up to serve in the military.

The argument stated that the chickenhawk’s position on the war had no credibility because it was hypocritical and sinister to call for a war when you yourself are not prepared to go fight in it.

We heard this constantly.

So, how about now? I doubt many well-meaning Lefties like George Clooney are going to quit their day job and show up at basic training - and yet they have mentioned supporting military action if need be in Sudan.

Where are the shrieks of ‘chickenhawk’, condemning the “Save Darfur” hypocrites for looking to send poor boys off to fight a war when they themselves won’t do it?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:

I kind of think that was thunderbolt’s original point…

Exactly, Boston - even in these threads, we had a steady chant of ‘chickenhawk!’ against any person that supported the war in Iraq but was not himself signed up to serve in the military.

The argument stated that the chickenhawk’s position on the war had no credibility because it was hypocritical and sinister to call for a war when you yourself are not prepared to go fight in it.

We heard this constantly.

So, how about now? I doubt many well-meaning Lefties like George Clooney are going to quit their day job and show up at basic training - and yet they have mentioned supporting military action if need be in Sudan.

Where are the shrieks of ‘chickenhawk’, condemning the “Save Darfur” hypocrites for looking to send poor boys off to fight a war when they themselves won’t do it?[/quote]

I’m not sure that’s exactly what chickenhawk means. Only the real idiots think Bush or Cheney or Rush Limbaugh should have showed up to basic training ready to fight the Republican Guard. And saying that those who don’t or didn’t serve can’t hold an opinion on national security or direct national security policy is basically fascist.

The issue is that a lot of these men (of both parties, but it’s most striking in the case of the Republicans) avoided their duty in Vietnam and are now prepared to send others to fight and die. If you avoided your country’s service at the height of the Cold War and in a time of conscription, whether through deferments (Cheney), bogus medical issues (Rush Limbaugh’s anal cyst), or a cozy National Guard job (marginally more respectable) and now direct a war while painting your opponents as unpatriotic (and yes, some of them are), well, I can see why the term chickenhawk gets thrown around.

Iraq is a much more noble cause than going to the Sudan.

Got it!

P.S. Because I said so.

ER has become unwatchable because of the stupid Africa episodes.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/News/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-05-08T105513Z_01_L08424800_RTRUKOC_0_UK-SUDAN-DARFUR.xml

I have little compasion when I hear or read things like:

“they demanded international troops be deployed to protect them”

or

“Women wearing brightly coloured robes and men in white jalabiyya gathered around shouting ‘Janjaweed, Janjaweed’ then attacked a U.N. vehicle with axes, stones and sticks, shattering its windows”

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:

I kind of think that was thunderbolt’s original point…

Exactly, Boston - even in these threads, we had a steady chant of ‘chickenhawk!’ against any person that supported the war in Iraq but was not himself signed up to serve in the military.

The argument stated that the chickenhawk’s position on the war had no credibility because it was hypocritical and sinister to call for a war when you yourself are not prepared to go fight in it.

We heard this constantly.

So, how about now? I doubt many well-meaning Lefties like George Clooney are going to quit their day job and show up at basic training - and yet they have mentioned supporting military action if need be in Sudan.

Where are the shrieks of ‘chickenhawk’, condemning the “Save Darfur” hypocrites for looking to send poor boys off to fight a war when they themselves won’t do it?[/quote]

I understand your point Thunder, and in its basic sense you’re right.

However, the difference, to me, is the times we live in now compared with the times that our “chickenhawk” president and vice president lived in.

Steering clear of the military altogether is a different thing to me than getting in the National Guard to avoid a tour in Vietnam like Bush was. It’s different than getting five deferments like Cheney did. When their number was called, they got out of it (say what you will, but I believe it irrational to think that a rich man’s son like Bush would 1)ever go to any war and 2)wouldn’t use his father’s connections to get out of it.)

This is different than being anti-war on the basis that you don’t think it’s right, and it’s alot different than going anyway like Kerry did. the obvious perception is that Dick/Bush are fine with war, just not when they’re going. Some of us are not OK with war…ever. When you throw in the incongrounancies about the start of the Iraq war, it looks like they were itching to get into that war. You wouldn’t find people like Abbie Hoffman or Neil Young turning around in forty years and just itching to get into a war, especially after Vietnam.

Again, I don’t know if I’m explaining this clearly enough, but dodging the war, then starting your own is a bit different than most of us do. They are in an extraordinary position of power, where they have the power to send men to die. Even Clooney doesn’t have that kind of power (although Jolie might). So to me, its far more hypocritical for Bush and Cheney then for anyone else, simply based on the amount of power they have had in the past, and have now.

If I was in Vietnam, I would be really angry that George got out of it, and now he does this.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

I saw Clooney on Real Time with Bill Maher, and he was advocating more of a UN approach then a unliateral American movement…although we may have burned that bridge already, I would like to see it happen.[/quote]

Really? You are aware of the UN “approach” to the genocide in Rwanda aren’t you? If that is what Clooney is advocating then he is a fool and doesn’t have a clue how incompetent the UN is.

Fantastic piece by Mark Steyn on the Darfur crisis and the concerns over ‘multilateralism’ and the failures of the UN Security Council:

"I SEE George Clooney and Angelina Jolie have discovered Darfur and are now demanding “action”. Good for them. Hollywood hasn’t shown this much interest in indigenous groups of the Sudan since John Payne and Jerry Colonna sang The Girlfriend of the Whirling Dervish in Garden of the Moon (1938).

I wish the celebs well. Those of us who wanted action on Darfur years ago will hope their advocacy produces more results than ours did. Clooney’s concern for the people of the region appears to be genuine and serious. But unless he’s also serious about backing the only forces in the world with the capability and will to act in Sudan, he’s just another showboating pretty boy of no use to anyone.

Here’s the lesson of the past three years: The UN kills.

In 2003, you’ll recall, the US was reviled as a unilateralist cowboy because it and its coalition of the poodles waged an illegal war unauthorised by the UN against a sovereign state run by a thug regime that was no threat to anyone apart from selected ethnocultural groups within its borders, which it killed in large numbers (Kurds and Shia).

Well, Washington learned its lesson. Faced with another thug regime that’s no threat to anyone apart from selected ethnocultural groups within its borders which it kills in large numbers (African Muslims and southern Christians), the unilateralist cowboy decided to go by the book. No unlawful actions here. Instead, meetings at the UN. Consultations with allies. Possible referral to the Security Council.

And as I wrote on this page in July 2004: “The problem is, by the time you’ve gone through the UN, everyone’s dead.” And as I wrote in Britain’s Daily Telegraph in September 2004: “The US agreed to go the UN route and it looks like they’ll have a really strongish compromise resolution ready to go about a week after the last villager’s been murdered and his wife gang-raped.”

Several hundred thousand corpses later Clooney is now demanding a “stronger multinational force to protect the civilians of Darfur”.

Agreed. So let’s get on to the details. If by “multinational” Clooney means a military intervention authorised by the UN, then he’s a poseur and a fraud, and we should pay him no further heed. Meaningful UN action is never gonna happen. Sudan has at least two Security Council vetoes in its pocket: China gets 6 per cent of its oil from the country, while Russia has less obviously commercial reasons and more of a general philosophical belief in the right of sovereign states to butcher their own.

So forget a legal intervention authorised by the UN. If by “multinational” Clooney means military participation by the Sudanese regime’s co-religionists, then dream on. The Arab League, as is its wont when one of its bloodier members gets a bad press, has circled the camels and chosen to confer its Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval on Khartoum by holding its most recent summit there.

So who, in the end, does “multinational action” boil down to? The same small group of nations responsible for almost any meaningful global action, from Sierra Leone to Iraq to Afghanistan to the tsunami-devastated Sri Lanka, Thailand and Indonesia and on to East Timor and the Solomon Islands. The same core of English-speaking countries, technically multinational but distressingly unicultural and unilingual and indeed, given that most of them share the same head of state, uniregal. The US, Britain, Australia and Canada (back in the game in Afghanistan) certainly attract other partners, from the gallant Poles to the Kingdom of Tonga.

But, whatever international law has to say on the subject, the only effective intervention around the world comes from ad hoc coalitions of the willing led by the doughty musketeers of the Anglosphere. Right now who’s on the ground dragging the reluctant Sudanese through their negotiations with the African Union? America’s Deputy Secretary of State Bob Zoellick and Britain’s International Development Secretary Hilary Benn. Sorry, George, that’s as “multinational” as it’s gonna get.

Clooney made an interesting point a few weeks ago. He said that “liberal” had become a dirty word in America and he’d like to change that. Fair enough. But you’re never going to do so as long as your squeamishness about the projection of American power outweighs your do-gooder instincts.

The American Prospect’s Mark Leon Goldberg penned an almost comically agonised piece fretting about the circumstances in which he’d be prepared to support a Bush intervention in Darfur: Who needs the Janjaweed when you’re prepared to torture your own arguments the way Goldberg does? He gets to the penultimate paragraph and he’s still saying stuff such as: “The question, of course, is whether the US seeks Security Council support to legitimise such airstrikes.”

Well, no, that’s not the question. If you think the case for intervention in Darfur depends on whether or not the Chinese guy raises his hand, sorry, you’re not being serious. The good people of Darfur have been entrusted to the legitimacy of the UN for more than two years and it’s killing them. In 2004, after months of expressing deep concern, grave concern, deep concern over the graves and deep grave concern over whether the graves were deep enough, Kofi Annan took decisive action and appointed a UN committee to look into what’s going on. Eventually, they reported back that it’s not genocide.

Thank goodness for that. Because, as yet another Kofi-appointed UN committee boldly declared, “genocide anywhere is a threat to the security of all and should never be tolerated”. So fortunately what’s going on in the Sudan isn’t genocide. Instead, it’s just hundreds of thousands of corpses who happen to be from the same ethnic group, which means the UN can go on tolerating it until everyone’s dead, at which point the so-called “decent left” can support a “multinational” force under the auspices of the Arab League going in to ensure the corpses don’t pollute the water supply.

What’s the quintessential leftist cause? It’s the one you see on a gazillion bumper stickers: Free Tibet. Every college in the US has a Free Tibet society: There’s the Indiana University Students for a Free Tibet, and the University of Wisconsin-Madison Students for a Free Tibet, and the Students for a Free Tibet University of Michigan Chapter. Everyone’s for a free Tibet, but no one’s for freeing Tibet. Idealism asinertia is the hallmark of the movement.

Those of us on the Free Iraq-Free Darfur side are consistent: There are no bad reasons to clobber thug regimes, and the postmodern sovereignty beloved by the UN is strictly conditional. At some point, the Left has to decide whether it stands for anything other than self-congratulatory passivity and the fetishisation of a failed and corrupt transnationalism. As Alexander Downer put it: “Outcomes are more important than blind faith in the principles of non-intervention, sovereignty and multilateralism.”

Just so. Regrettably, the Australian Foreign Minister isn’t as big a star as Clooney, but I’m sure Downer wouldn’t mind if Clooney wanted to appropriate it as the Clooney Doctrine. If Anglosphere action isn’t multinational enough for Sudan, it might confirm the suspicion that the Left’s conscience is now just some tedious shell game in which it frantically scrambles the thimbles but, whether you look under the Iraqi or Afghan or Sudanese one, you somehow never find the shrivelled pea of The Military Intervention We’re Willing To Support."

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19056736-7583,00.html

(posted so that folks may quote)

The Darfur situation raises some very interesting questions regarding Iraq-war critics that focused on the lack of UN endorsement and ‘legal procedure’ of war: what happens when military action is needed in Dafur, but Russia and China veto the UNSC Resolution?

I have no problem with the US saying to hell with the UNSC - but for those that were outraged that the US ignored the UNSC for Iraq, this will need some explaining.

[quote]CDM wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

I saw Clooney on Real Time with Bill Maher, and he was advocating more of a UN approach then a unliateral American movement…although we may have burned that bridge already, I would like to see it happen.

Really? You are aware of the UN “approach” to the genocide in Rwanda aren’t you? If that is what Clooney is advocating then he is a fool and doesn’t have a clue how incompetent the UN is. [/quote]

I hear you. The US, as I recall, wasn’t involved in Rwanda to the degree that it should’ve been.

The UN is impotent without the US. The US still should not take them for granted.

I would like to see us do something to stop this shit in Darfur, although I don’t think its possible given the situation in Iraq.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

I understand your point Thunder, and in its basic sense you’re right.

However, the difference, to me, is the times we live in now compared with the times that our “chickenhawk” president and vice president lived in.[/quote]

Ok, this is a separate question, one that I won’t agree with you on, and I will respond when I have a bit more time, but put that aside for one second.

The label ‘chickenhawk’ was dropped around these forums expressly attacking pro-war posters here - even though the pro-war guys were arguing in good faith.

Will the labelers damn the “Save Darfur” folks around here as well? The logic - the chickenhawk argument - is absolutely the same for the Sudan hawks as well as the Iraq hawks.

My point is not rhetorical - it is to show the absurdity of the chickenhawk claim the first time around and expose the wretches who used it in lieu of real arguments.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

I understand your point Thunder, and in its basic sense you’re right.

However, the difference, to me, is the times we live in now compared with the times that our “chickenhawk” president and vice president lived in.

Ok, this is a separate question, one that I won’t agree with you on, and I will respond when I have a bit more time, but put that aside for one second.

The label ‘chickenhawk’ was dropped around these forums expressly attacking pro-war posters here - even though the pro-war guys were arguing in good faith.

Will the labelers damn the “Save Darfur” folks around here as well? The logic - the chickenhawk argument - is absolutely the same for the Sudan hawks as well as the Iraq hawks.

My point is not rhetorical - it is to show the absurdity of the chickenhawk claim the first time around and expose the wretches who used it in lieu of real arguments.[/quote]

I can understand that. The only people I’ve referred to as chickenhawks are people in the administration.

Thunder,

Strong work. I am the person most often labeled as a “chicken hawk.”

I appreciate you pointing out the hypocrisy.

Please allow me to add another tidbit: The same guys that are up in arms about Bush/Cheney and Vietnam, are the same people who voted for bill “I’m not leaving” clinton.

In my opinion, writing a letter back to America (from England) after you have been drafted and refusing to serve, IS MUCH MORE REPREHENSIBLE THAN FLYING FIGHTER JETS (BUSH).

Yet, these people voted for billy boy, twice. They had the opportunity to vote for two legitimate war heroes, George H.W. Bush and Bob Dole. They chose Mr. mtv.

Oh, yes. billy’s Presidency did see the military in harm’s way.

Where were these guys screaming “chickenhawk?”

I hope that is taken into consideration when these guys start frothing at the mouth.

JeffR

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Been reading up on the new cause celebre among the Hollywood Left - that of the awful situation in Darfur.

If “Save Darfur” campaign requires some form of military presence, as has been encouraged by George Clooney, etc…

…will we hear the chorus that Clooney, Streisand, and company are just a bunch of ‘chicken hawks’?

After all, they are advocating action thousands of miles away, and they are suggesting that we send someone else’s children to do the grunt work while they stay nested at home in their posh mansions.

If the “Save Darfur” celebrities don’t actually strap on boots, camo, and M-16s, have they forfeited the moral right to advocate military action in Sudan?[/quote]

In this administration only Rumsfeld and Bush have served in the military. They are the epitome of the word “chicken hawk”

If Cheney had served maybe he would have learned how to shoot his weapon and not shoot someone in the face.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Been reading up on the new cause celebre among the Hollywood Left - that of the awful situation in Darfur.

If “Save Darfur” campaign requires some form of military presence, as has been encouraged by George Clooney, etc…

…will we hear the chorus that Clooney, Streisand, and company are just a bunch of ‘chicken hawks’?

After all, they are advocating action thousands of miles away, and they are suggesting that we send someone else’s children to do the grunt work while they stay nested at home in their posh mansions.

If the “Save Darfur” celebrities don’t actually strap on boots, camo, and M-16s, have they forfeited the moral right to advocate military action in Sudan?[/quote]

In this administration only Rumsfeld and Bush have served in the military. They are the epitome of the word “chicken hawk”

If Cheney had served maybe he would have learned how to shoot his weapon and not shoot someone in the face.