You want better form on the main 3… By never practising those lifts?
I’m pretty sure your goals are very similar to the goals of most people who follow 531 the way it was written and make good progress doing them.
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If you put it like that… lol
Like others have said: don’t drop the main lifts. If you want use the other lifts, use them as a supplemental for 2 cycles (5s pro for main lifts) and see how that turns out.
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You are better off using those lifts as supplemental movements and choosing the correct supplemental programming for each of these lifts. Not all supplemental lifts are created the same so choose wisely.
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Perhaps I didn’t read correctly because I got 5/3/1 Forever in the mail last week but admittedly only skimmed so far (very busy) but if I recall correctly there is a page in which using variations with appropriate RM-based percentages is discussed. Even if it’s not 5/3/1 and you use what you learn from 5/3/1 (Jim) and you progress in the long term, isn’t that what matters? My view is that even if you don’t have unquestioning faith in some system or coach but you learn from that coach, then that in itself is what truly is important. I think any decent coach agrees.
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The variation you are discussing is for supplemental lifts, which gels with what Jim said above your comment and the majority of the comments in the thread.
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I see. But I do remember an article in which Jim said 5/3/1 can be used in any big lift, even bent over rows and curls. If a set and rep scheme is effective how can it not be applied to any basic lift? If anything, if people have success in whatever lift they use it, doesn’t that lend even more proof that it’s a good scheme? I’m not saying this to be a wiseass. It’s just I’ve seen several trainers/coaches say that if a change, maybe even a necessary change, is used in a titled program, then it’s no longer that program.
Once again, this is gelling with what people have been saying here. It would not be 5/3/1 to do this, but you will probably get big and strong doing it just fine.
5/3/1 is made up of principles that are pretty effective no matter how they’re employed. I used a lot of those principles for my strongman training, but I wouldn’t call what I did 5/3/1.
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Ok, I get it.
It is also good to remember that the goal was to increase main lifts in this one.
I think there is “5/3/1 the set/rep/percentage scheme” and “5/3/1 The Program”
While one could do curls for the 5/3/1 set/rep/percentage scheme, doing so doesn’t mean you are “doing 5/3/1” which (I think) is generally regarded as using that scheme with the big 4 lifts and then the appropriate assistance templates.
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Thanks for all the answers!
Last question: If i’d use the variations as a supplemental lift, it means I’d perform the main excersise just for 3 sets per week. Is it smart to use the main lift as an assistance lift on another day, so lets say I squat 5/3/1 on day 1, would I squat 3 light sets of 8-12 reps on day 3?
I’d keep the assistance as assistance, main lifts aren’t assistance, even if you do them lighter. Also, if you’re working out 3 days a week, I’d really look into full body routines - they have you squat 3/week, deadlift 1-2/week, benching or pressing in various combinations 2-3/week.
The point of the variations is that they still drive up your main lift, one way or another, so the supplemental work you’re doing with the variations still adds up to your main work.
If you’re back squatting 3 sets with increasing %s (5/3/1 rep scheme or 5’s Pro), then following up with a 5x5 SSL of front squats, you’re still squatting for a total of 8 work sets. It’s not the exact same movement but they’re two very complementary movements. You want more volume, go for a 10x5 FSL - you get the gist.
Just be careful, as Jim mentioned, not all variations are created equal.
You want more pressing volume in your assistance stuff, go with DB bench and press or dips. More squatting, go with goblet squats or split squats. More pulling, go with straight leg deadlifts or romanian deadlifts
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I’ve looked at the Full Body Templates but they kinda seem boring… Couldn’t I use the push-pull-legs/core assistance template and use the main 3 as an assistance according to their movement? Bench would be push, DL would be pull and squat would be legs/core of course…
So on one day I’d do squat 5/3/1, another day I will do squats with either
65%x5, 75X5, 85%x5
70%x3, 80%x3, 90%x3
75%x5, 85%x3, 95%x1
80%x1, 90%x1, 100%x1
as mentioned in Beyond.
Thanks
It’s been a while since I’ve read Beyond, but those are still main work %s. I think they are intended to be a replacement of the % listed in the templates, not as an addition.
It would be useful to see how your schedule is actually programmed, hard to tell you what to do.
I reread the thread and couldn’t figure out what you’re doing exactly - I think it’s 3 days a week, each day a main lift (squat, bench, DL) followed by 5x5FSL of the same lift.
If that’s it, and if it worked so far, you could just keep it as it is and use the variations on the 5x5FSL work, see how you feel: front squats for squats, close grip bench or OHP for bench, snatch grip DL for DL, for example.
You COULD do the main lifts multiple times a week on different days and with (relatively) high %s - that’s the whole point of full body templates - but you shouldn’t do it blindly or going by trial and error. It’s the kind of thing that comes back biting your ass very easily.
As a rule of thumb, if you’re pushing a lift on a certain day, you hold that lift back on another day.
If you’re doing 5/3/1 + 5x5FSL Squats on Monday, you don’t do 5/3/1 or 5’s Pro Squats again on Friday - you do 5x5FSL.
And this is a stretch already, you can get away increasing volume on squats - on deads and press, not so much. It’s something that needs to be carefully planned.
If you can grab Forever, do it. The Full Body templates are much better than the ones in Beyond, fitting all needs. There’s also the “Full Body, 85%” template that combines Second Set Last and Boring But Strong allowing to pack both volume and heavy work - it’s perfect in a 3 days a week setup.
As of now I do the main lift 5/3/1+ followed by 5x5@FSL. In Beyond you have squats 5/3/1, follow by those percentages I mentioned on another day. So I guess they replace FSL.
Your making this too complicated, it sounded like you wanted to focus on these lifts for some reason but now your wanting to do the main lift somewhere else again because your doing the substitutes instead. Just do the main lift on its appropriate day for however much you need to for the week, then do the substitute lift on a different day.
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Another question on another topic. When would you consider moving from 5/3/1+ onto 5’s PRO (as 2 leader cycles, followed by 1 cycle of 5/3/1+)? Right now my reps on 5+ week are around 10-12 for each lift with 85% of my TM (90% of 1RM at the time). It wouldn’t make sense to get 5 reps on weight I can do 10-12 reps, right? I was thinking moving to 5’s PRO once I hit around 7 strong reps during 5+ week. Toughts on this?
You should never be as low as 7 reps on 5+ week.
Considering you should be able to 5 rep your TM 6 - 8 is a pretty reasonable range for 1+ week.
7 on 5+ would almost certainly indicate a TM that is too high
With 5s Pro you do something after the heaviest set so while the 5 reps might be easy your doing more stuff later to make up for it. Also 10-12 reps on week 1 means about 6-8 reps on week 3 which barely translates to 5 strong reps.